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[Silas Vitalia]

Long story short we've got a lot of 'urdoingitwrong' aimed at Leo.

You guys can play along with Stillwater and accept their preferred IC version of things and that they aren't outed Cartel members, or you can not. If you choose not to, consider what your IC evidence is, and weather this is an OOC spite move to piss them off or give them more 'urdoingitwrong'

It's a big galaxy out there and plenty of room for people to never run into each other if you decide not to. 

[Matariki Rain]

I feel I've been caught up in a discussion that has some other motive force behind it, simply through wanting to talk about the facts of the case as visible to people in my alliance. I don't particularly know Leo beyond the occasional exchange in OOC. My notes here are nothing to do with Leo except as far as responding to a question he asked.

One of the Stillwater contacts responded to a diplomatic query about RoE and affiliations with more information than Leo would apparently have preferred. It happens. The information has been available IC within EM since January 2011 and has informed our standings.

How far that travels beyond people who have access to and interest in EM diplomacy files is another matter altogether. Apparently it's not something Stillwater likes talking about now, or maybe they've even changed. Please don't tell us, though, that we can't have a well-justified belief about something we do "know" legitimately.

That's even without the corporate write-up, which we treat as IC and which is one of the standard starting points for working up a file on a group. How else would you do it?

[Uraniae]

Just going to add my two isk here.

I can understand where Leo is coming from with all of this.  I, as a player, know that Leo is pretty much the "go to guy" for finding an Angel Cartel member.  There is plenty of OOC information and it's been OOCly asked and OOCly confirmed numerous times that I've personally seen.  Now, as a character Uraniae doesn't specifically know if he, or Stillwater, happen to be Angel affiliated.  I've never really looked into it as Uraniae doesn't really care.  Of course Uraniae does have suspicions about Cartel affiliation, and I have to say I do consider most Bio and Corp Description windows to be ICly searchable information.  Note that I say "most" specifically.  I'm sure everyone can easily think of character bios and corp descriptions that would be clearly OOC info (NPC damage tables, ascii art) as well as corp titles.  It's a flexible source if you ask me.  If Leo is saying it is OOC information I have to respect that, but at the same time (if Ura cared about the Cartel at all) I'd be the first to call him or any other Stillwater member on it if they used those same titles as IC honorifics.

Also, a few pages back Ken made a good point about perception dictating reality in situations like this.  Regardless of if it is correct factually or morally or ICly, people do seem to be finding other IC information that hints at Angel ties.  I'm not privy to any of it really, but there is something that needs to be pointed out here.  Just what constitutes "proof" and how much of it is needed to justify action is something that is going to vary from person to person.

All that said, and I hope I'm not derailing by asking this, but...

Out of curiosity where does this leave Uraniae with the little hints of her own affiliations and beliefs?  What information do people have to frame their stance regarding her, and how much of it is IC versus OOC?  I'll be genuinely surprised if anyone can make a good argument for Uraniae being this or that faction.

Again I'm not trying to derail things but I think this is a similar sort of situation and it might be good for people to step away from this particular situation and look at a similar one. There is a chance a separate but similar situation might provide some clearer objectivity if people really are blurring the line between IC and OOC knowledge.

[Makkal]

Makkal remains blissfully ignorant of Stillwater's Angel connections. Her old IC source of knowledge regarding those connections also claims that the Empress does drugs and has orgies. Obviously, not trustworthy.

[Matariki Rain]

Hmm. Maybe there's something interesting here: as an immersive roleplayer I read things like damage tables as IC. We're pilots, and this is one of the reference tools we use. ASCII art is generally IC unless it's of some real-world flag or similar, although even then that gives information which we might ICerize (these are the people who require translator add-ons, for instance; but "they like to give the cluster the middle finger" is totally IC).

CONCORD gives us a free home page. People do with that what people do with that.

[Makkal]

For me, some bios are IC documents made by official sources, some are capsuleer made 'homepages,' and others are a summery of easily available IC infos. I try to guess which is which and what part is OOC based on the layout.

They're not standardized so I don't have the same expectations for each one.

I've made mistakes. I recall Makkal commenting on a certain poem about Amarrian women being unsatisfied with their partner's manhoods and being told that was actually an OOC joke.

[Tiberious Thessalonia]

For me, it's got more to do with the fact that Tib has not liked Leopold IC for a year because Tib heard Leopold was an Angel.  All of the corporate information, which I consider IC because it is accessable in game even without using things that are, apparently, tricky such as the In Game Browser, says he is an Angel.  I am not being asked to go back and reverse an entire year of in-game reaction because Leopold, OOC, suddenly wants to retcon that no body knows he is an angel.

I laugh at that suggestion, frankly, and I'm not even interested in handling it particularly diplomatically after it was phrased to me as an order of all things.

Other things I consider myself able to know ICly just through the game interface.

-Your characters name
-What ships your characters fly if I see them in space or can make reasonable suppositions about it based off information on D-scan.
-Where you are when I run a locator agent on you
-Any chat in local, or most other channels unless they are specifically marked as being OOC.

Things I consider OOC information.

-Blog posts that are marked as being OOC.
-Things said only in an OOC channel.
-Mistakes that are QUICKLY retconned so that pretending I didnt see it is not a huge pain in the ass.

That's everything.  Yes, Leopold, I even consider lolcats to be IC, if you show me one in an IC context.  My character will just think yours is weird.

[Lyn Farel]

The main issue here is that all these IC assumptions seem to come either from IC gathered facts (for example, EM files or the old Stillwater) and from OOC/IC confusions (like when after repeating the word ANGEL everyday on the OOC channel people start to take it as if their characters have always known that).

Anyway, even if I am not sure if Leo really wants people to retcon that fact, I do not see the situation broken beyond any hope. Let's just see what premise we have :

Old Stillwater was obviously angel or not hiding their affiliation. Other IC clues filtered out like with the EM files, etc. Leo was in Naraka before too iirc ?

1) What do we learn of that ? There is a high probability that Leo is still angel, and Stillwater too. It is up to him/them to prove it is not the case anymore.

2) Does that mean that they still are Angel ? No, period.

3) What does it implies if some characters still strongly believe it is the case and state it as a known fact ? They believe what they want, and let them believe it. Do you usually believe and trust a turnclaok completely ? No, there is a certain amount of time before trusting him. Here it is the same more or less, even if Stillwater and Leo have really changed, people will need time to believe it (even if OOCly we know they still havent changed their affiliations).

4) What kind of counter arguments can Leo/Stillwater's supporter find ? Well, rational thinking, I think, to begin with. "What makes you think that Stillwater is still Angel since the change of directors even if we clearly stated we are not (then link the relevant PR piece of info) ? What makes you think Leo is still Angel ? Never heard of capsuleers changing loyalties ?" It is expected for a lot of people not to believe it as per 3), but it also asks them to bring proofs that what you say here is false, and they just can't (unless I have missed some clear evidence somewhere). The very moment they will prove unable to bring proofs instead of slander, they are screwed rhetorically (make sure to use the word slander then).

5) What makes it interesting ? We have a corporation with affiliations that are more or less screaming angel for the public opinion, but nobody can really prove anything. It reminds me the mafia on some points. Everyone knows that guy is the Godfather, or that place is infiltrated by mafia guys, but nobody can do anything because they lack proofs.

That's mostly how I see it.

Also, my advice for Stillwater : find a good affiliation for your "public face". Build and be prolific around that "public face", be it amarrian holdings, or whatever.

[Tiberious Thessalonia]

I actually just thought of a really good way around this for Leopold, it involves a few steps.  It wont make people stop accusing him of being an Angel, but it certaintly provides plausible deniability.  Best of all, it entirely revolves around things he can do, and actually involves some cool RP shenanigans.

1) Remove ALL references to the Angel Cartel from any sources that are even potentially IC.  This means bios, corp info, moving the headquarters if thats possible (that might even be easier to do since as far as I know you guys fly around Akilia).  Stop members from naming ships using Gist naming conventions.

2) Publically admit that Leopold was an Angel. This explains the fact that Naraka and Stillwater are or were both Angel corps.  Accept some sort of IC punishment, lessened by his influence, either legitimate or non.  Perhaps Leopold loses his holdership, but gets to name his successor so installs a puppet, or even some actual character.  Announce that for the past, say, year, you have been trying to divest yourself of ties to the Cartel, and have only just fully succeeded.

3)  Continue being an Angel despite all that, only now with plausible deniability in place, and the facade of a 'legitimate businessman'.  People will still call you an Angel.  You can shrug and go "I was, but I got out.  Now I am legitimate".  People tell noobs not to believe you.  You tell them those people are liars with a grudge.  Except now you actually have a leg to stand on.

[Lyn Farel]

Or on 2) he can also claim like the proper vilain he is that he got abused by angels in the past and is going to atone in the eyes of God and be a nice little loyal Holder to his/her majesty.

[Tiberious Thessalonia]

Nah, that would make him seem weak which is a death sentence in both the Empire and the Cartel.

[Desiderya]

27)
Or you could accept what someone labels as IC/OOC since everyone has slightly different opinions what is IC by default and what not. See killboards, for example. Some consider it to be IC, some don't.

Also, my advice for Stillwater : find a good affiliation for your "public face". Build and be prolific around that "public face", be it amarrian holdings, or whatever.

Imho, the best advice. Create some stories/background about the public face and keep some buzz alive from time to time (IGS or something like ANN?), then do your shady dealings in the, well, shade.
But
a)haters gonna hate.
b) The aforementioned OOC knowledge that they're angels will always bleed through into IC judgements. Mostly human, I guess.

[Tiberious Thessalonia]

Would do, but that information wasn't labelled as OOC when I got it, and one years worth of RP even tangentially related to Stillwater has been made with the knowledge gained from that information.

[Desiderya]

One year worth of knowing that he called himself domination something? That's certainly a heavy impact and I can easily see where it ruins ones experience.

No, seriously, personally I don't think it's such a huge deal to simply go ahead on the current status quo - present suspicion and "knowledge" won't change a bit. As said by others before, we often 'know' things that aren't entirely the factual reality to an omniscient ( in this case an OOC ) observer.
So vOv.

[Leopold Caine]

I think Desi has the right idea there.
So, the story continues. Be suspicious all you want, but stop throwing made up 'proof' and 'evidence' into people's faces.
Especially the person who seems to get off at convincing our new members to leave the corp. Since recently I witnessed a third time he has tried this, please stop throwing OOC made up stuff into people's faces and claiming it's all IC.


...

...

And there we go. Problem solved.