Backstage - OOC Forums
General Discussion => General Non-RP EVE Discussion => Topic started by: Vikarion on 02 Jul 2011, 11:17
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http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=935 (http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=935)
This makes me very happy. I may even buy something from the (overpriced) NEX store. :D
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Yeah, already saw that. The whole thing can be shortened down to the following:
"See? You all had a freakin' hissyfit over absolutely nothing."
Now to tally up how many of the ones who "unsubbed" actually follows through with it. My ISK is on zero or close to it.
I have to say, the insanely loud and viciously enraged mob mentality that was going on shamed the entire Eve community.
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Yeah, already saw that. The whole thing can be shortened down to the following:
"See? You all had a freakin' hissyfit over absolutely nothing."
Now to tally up how many of the ones who "unsubbed" actually follows through with it. My ISK is on zero or close to it.
I have to say, the insanely loud and viciously enraged mob mentality that was going on shamed the entire Eve community.
are you kidding? I'm pretty sure the reason that this all went through in the way it did at all was because of the noise the players made. CCP wanted to see our actions, and we showed them. I see this as a victory for the community, and its something the gaming world isn't going to forget quickly.
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Yeah, already saw that. The whole thing can be shortened down to the following:
"See? You all had a freakin' hissyfit over absolutely nothing."
Now to tally up how many of the ones who "unsubbed" actually follows through with it. My ISK is on zero or close to it.
I have to say, the insanely loud and viciously enraged mob mentality that was going on shamed the entire Eve community.
Why would we "follow through with it"? CCP did exactly what most of us wanted.
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This should theoretically answer every question the customers have had in recent weeks.
I'm satisfied, myself. I'm a bit perplexed that Hilmar didn't come out and apologize (maybe he's planning yet to do that) but I know he's a good guy and that there was a sociocultural issue at play there more than hubris. Icelanders are very blunt people and it doesn't translate into written words very well.
So, guess I'll continue to laugh at the conspiracy theorists, trolls, and children on the forums.
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NeX is still too expensive. Fine, charge a lot of a monocle so it doesn't flood everyone's avatars, but a skirt shouldn't be so damned expensive.
When Establishments come out, how many of us will be wearing those Minmatar vest jackets? We need cheap stuff for the sake of variety when we all go drinking together, or whatever.
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"Hissy fit over nothing" misses the point completely unless you intentionally focus on only one bit of the entire fiasco.
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Yeah, already saw that. The whole thing can be shortened down to the following:
"See? You all had a freakin' hissyfit over absolutely nothing."
Now to tally up how many of the ones who "unsubbed" actually follows through with it. My ISK is on zero or close to it.
I have to say, the insanely loud and viciously enraged mob mentality that was going on shamed the entire Eve community.
Coudn't agree more, although I too bet my isk how they will try to justify such tantrum with yet another tantrum. Revolutions " must " have a cause by the way... :roll:
And yes, all the emoragequit will suddenly start to " appear " in game trying to be as quiet as possible about the whole affair... business as usual.
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Why wouldn't they reappear? CCP addressed the concerns.
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Why wouldn't they reappear? CCP addressed the concerns.
CCP just repeated what the reality is, Nex is here to stay, vanity items only.
Rest was a few tantrums throwed over " future hypotesis " . There was never any official reason, not a single non vanity item, nothing of the real conection to justify the minority forums hyss.
CCP as a company did, and will continue to do whats best for their current development, the blog is very clear about it.
CSM got a trip to Iceland, a few drinks, repeated the words in another context. And everybody goes " ohh yes, now we know. "
That's all about really. It was nothing new.
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I submit you have misinterpreted the situation by leaps and bounds.
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I submit you have misinterpreted the situation by leaps and bounds.
I think that particular honor goes to those that had a massive ragefit over that internal brainstorming session, then took that as some sort of writ in stone prophecy.
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NeX is still too expensive. Fine, charge a lot of a monocle so it doesn't flood everyone's avatars, but a skirt shouldn't be so damned expensive.
When Establishments come out, how many of us will be wearing those Minmatar vest jackets? We need cheap stuff for the sake of variety when we all go drinking together, or whatever.
I believe they will keep a good balance between exclusive items ( i wouldnt call it overpriced, if they are exclusive they will be above average naturally ) and more accessible items. It's like this in any major MT games around so I suspect the model wont change much. Maybe they will go for limited time exclusive items too, ive seen around some games and they are usually good top sellers while they are offered. ( specially for collectors )
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I submit you have misinterpreted the situation by leaps and bounds.
I think that particular honor goes to those that had a massive ragefit over that internal brainstorming session, then took that as some sort of writ in stone prophecy.
The CSM, who looked Arnar and the rest in the eye, does not share your optimistic appraisal of the situation.
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I submit you have misinterpreted the situation by leaps and bounds.
I think that particular honor goes to those that had a massive ragefit over that internal brainstorming session, then took that as some sort of writ in stone prophecy.
The CSM, who looked Arnar and the rest in the eye, does not share your optimistic appraisal of the situation.
Considering the last released blog that is the very core of this thread, yes they do. And it's not optimistic, It's realistic. Very different interpretations.
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The Fearless newsletter was taken out of context from the get-go. EveNews24 showed a "surprising amount of media savvy" (not my words) in leaking that when they did. It was spin, and it got people riled up.
The concern is real, but Arnar had already stated in a dev blog about 2 months ago that there would be no non-vanity items in the store. It was the perfect confluence of events, decontextualized leaks, and a shitty patch* that caused the rage.
*It was confirmed to blow up hardware, including my own.
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"Hissy fit over nothing" misses the point completely unless you intentionally focus on only one bit of the entire fiasco.
That.
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The Fearless newsletter was taken out of context from the get-go. EveNews24 showed a "surprising amount of media savvy" (not my words) in leaking that when they did. It was spin, and it got people riled up.
The concern is real, but Arnar had already stated in a dev blog about 2 months ago that there would be no non-vanity items in the store.
This. Really this.
It was the perfect confluence of events, decontextualized leaks, and a shitty patch* that caused the rage.
PLUS the pack mentallity of " yay, something to rage, let's go... " which is confirmed by the "new" General online threads popping up.
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Just to be clear, I wasn't saying that it was much ado about nothing. As Seleene said on Eve Radio, the patch had something for everyone to be mad about. I should be more mad that the game blew out the VRAM on my video card and I had to buy a new one, but I'm not the kind of person to spam forums with incessant crap.
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Just to be clear, I wasn't saying that it was much ado about nothing. As Seleene said on Eve Radio, the patch had something for everyone to be mad about. I should be more mad that the game blew out the VRAM on my video card and I had to buy a new one, but I'm not the kind of person to spam forums with incessant crap.
People had quite serious concerns that needed to be addressed. I for one am glad that the protest had the result of convincing CCP to address those concerns in a professional manner.
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Just to be clear, I wasn't saying that it was much ado about nothing. As Seleene said on Eve Radio, the patch had something for everyone to be mad about. I should be more mad that the game blew out the VRAM on my video card and I had to buy a new one, but I'm not the kind of person to spam forums with incessant crap.
People had quite serious concerns that needed to be addressed. I for one am glad that the protest had the result of convincing CCP to address those concerns in a professional manner.
I am too. I just hate trolls, but they're an inevitable part of life on the Internet. v0v
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Just to be clear, I wasn't saying that it was much ado about nothing. As Seleene said on Eve Radio, the patch had something for everyone to be mad about. I should be more mad that the game blew out the VRAM on my video card and I had to buy a new one, but I'm not the kind of person to spam forums with incessant crap.
Patch burning video cards? legitimate concern, and I am sure that people like you for example, dealt with it with better ways than spamming forums with incessant crap. As addressed on my previous threads, there were ways and ways.
Spamming of forums with caps on, shooting little pixels in jita and throwing 8 year' old kids tantrum was not what motivated ccp to address hardware issues and serious concerns. It was again, reality of the situation, something that needed to be addressed and im sure it was by petitions and the normal mature ways to deal with the situation.
The silly forum protesters spamming all over had nothing to do with natural company decisions which continues to be implemented as programmed since its inception.
Nothing really new happened.
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What happened this week guys, I missed it?
(I'm kidding, I just stayed the hell out of it)
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I feel like there's no point discussing this, judging by the replies in this thread.
People like Miz and Revan - I don't know what to call them, CCP supporters in this instance, or something - are just going to keep acting like they have NO idea why players are so upset. Like it's ONLY about the monocles. Like there was one TINY issue that got fixed and we were just being whiny for nothing. Like it was CCP's wisdom that brought these minor changes, not the action of players.
I really don't know how to be constructive about it, it's just obscene.
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There is no point discussing that aspect Senn. Just ignore it and move on.
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There is no point discussing that aspect Senn. Just ignore it and move on.
Or make more constructive posts like this of course.
On a side note, there isnt really anything to be discussed, end of the day there will be people who finds screaming and shouting and shaving avatar heads something quite hot. :twisted:
Your protest was at least a bit original and didnt include forum posts with caps on and profane words. So there was a single plus there a measure of pleasure and entertainment blended with it all.
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Do what I do: type out the response you'd really like to give, the one that violates every rule of the forum and would singe eyebrows across the Internet...
Then CTRL-A and delete it without posting. You'll feel better and won't actually bash your head against the wall.
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Please, think of the children!
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Do what I do: type out the response you'd really like to give, the one that violates every rule of the forum and would singe eyebrows across the Internet...
Then CTRL-A and delete it without posting. You'll feel better and won't actually bash your head against the wall.
You do that too ? :)
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Do what I do: type out the response you'd really like to give, the one that violates every rule of the forum and would singe eyebrows across the Internet...
Then CTRL-A and delete it without posting. You'll feel better and won't actually bash your head against the wall.
You do that too ? :)
It's a very good method that works well - been using it for a long while myself. I would encourage more people to try it out.
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I think the CSM response pretty well summed up my response to the situation: "Here's what CCP did, here's why we were all justifiably upset, here's what they've done and said, and here's why we don't need to be upset anymore." Admittedly, when Fearless first came out, I was one of the first to say, 'no, really, the fact that it's in a newsletter doesn't make it company policy.' It was more the first-class manner in which CCP failed to handle the situation that concerned me.
I think it was actually very savvy on their part to bring in CSM - given that CSM didn't really tell them anything they couldn't have figured out from looking at the forum for ten minutes. But now they can say that they did and said what they did because of CSM and not because of forum rage.
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Senn, like Revan said earlier, there were legitimate concerns with the patch. Were those the ones that spawned the massive forum rage and shooting of monuments in Amarr? Maybe one out of a hundred of them. Yes, I'm a CCP supporter because I realize they are a company that's got a bottom line to consider and yet manage to take the players' views into account. That is... the players who did it the right way and approached them through the petition system, through the CSM and so on.
The grand majority of the complaining had little to do with performance and hardware issues. Really, go hit those protest threads and start counting the posts that are actual well-written complaints with legitimate issues in them and compare them to the massive bitchfest about monocles and P2W.
There never was a P2W issue, and the hardware/performance problems almost drowned in the horrible display of juvenile hissyfits.
Eve players have this strange obsession with turning CCP into some sort of enemy that needs to be fought and jeered at, which I can't for the life of me understand. They're the ones we need on our side, and the only way we're going to make that happen is to behave like bloody adults and voice our grievances in a proper and systematic manner. I will continue to support CCP because they have yet to show me they're not worthy of that support and trust. Like the devblog just showed (and the CSM apparently is happy with), there never were plans to introduce P2W. There was only brainstorming which necessarily has to include both extreme ends of the spectrum, and even in that document the majority of it argued against it.
They're on our side, as long as we stay realistic and understand that they have a bottom line to consider.
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Senn, like Revan said earlier, there were legitimate concerns with the patch. Were those the ones that spawned the massive forum rage and shooting of monuments in Amarr? Maybe one out of a hundred of them. Yes, I'm a CCP supporter because I realize they are a company that's got a bottom line to consider and yet manage to take the players' views into account. That is... the players who did it the right way and approached them through the petition system, through the CSM and so on.
The grand majority of the complaining had little to do with performance and hardware issues. Really, go hit those protest threads and start counting the posts that are actual well-written complaints with legitimate issues in them and compare them to the massive bitchfest about monocles and P2W.
There never was a P2W issue, and the hardware/performance problems almost drowned in the horrible display of juvenile hissyfits.
Eve players have this strange obsession with turning CCP into some sort of enemy that needs to be fought and jeered at, which I can't for the life of me understand. They're the ones we need on our side, and the only way we're going to make that happen is to behave like bloody adults and voice our grievances in a proper and systematic manner. I will continue to support CCP because they have yet to show me they're not worthy of that support and trust. Like the devblog just showed (and the CSM apparently is happy with), there never were plans to introduce P2W. There was only brainstorming which necessarily has to include both extreme ends of the spectrum, and even in that document the majority of it argued against it.
They're on our side, as long as we stay realistic and understand that they have a bottom line to consider.
Strange times when I see my words reflected on your post Mizhara.
It resumes my whole feeling on the matter really.
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NeX is still too expensive. Fine, charge a lot of a monocle so it doesn't flood everyone's avatars, but a skirt shouldn't be so damned expensive.
When Establishments come out, how many of us will be wearing those Minmatar vest jackets? We need cheap stuff for the sake of variety when we all go drinking together, or whatever.
I believe they will keep a good balance between exclusive items ( i wouldnt call it overpriced, if they are exclusive they will be above average naturally ) and more accessible items. It's like this in any major MT games around so I suspect the model wont change much. Maybe they will go for limited time exclusive items too, ive seen around some games and they are usually good top sellers while they are offered. ( specially for collectors )
I'd like to believe there will be cheap items. But if a damn monocle is 1.4 billion isk, how much do you think tattoo sleeves, or dresses, or clothes that aren't just generics will cost? No one but the uber-rich will be able to afford anything but the very 'cheapest' items. I know I won't be able to afford anything from the store, so I'm going to have to continue handwaving Nikita's appearance.
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NeX is still too expensive. Fine, charge a lot of a monocle so it doesn't flood everyone's avatars, but a skirt shouldn't be so damned expensive.
When Establishments come out, how many of us will be wearing those Minmatar vest jackets? We need cheap stuff for the sake of variety when we all go drinking together, or whatever.
I believe they will keep a good balance between exclusive items ( i wouldnt call it overpriced, if they are exclusive they will be above average naturally ) and more accessible items. It's like this in any major MT games around so I suspect the model wont change much. Maybe they will go for limited time exclusive items too, ive seen around some games and they are usually good top sellers while they are offered. ( specially for collectors )
I'd like to believe there will be cheap items. But if a damn monocle is 1.4 billion isk, how much do you think tattoo sleeves, or dresses, or clothes that aren't just generics will cost? No one but the uber-rich will be able to afford anything but the very 'cheapest' items. I know I won't be able to afford anything from the store, so I'm going to have to continue handwaving Nikita's appearance.
That's a bit subjective because it depends of ccp's own market research on the actual playerbase condition x what is perceived as cheap by each one of us.
I can only give my own references on this regard, if you ask me, in terms of isk 1.4 billion is already cheap. I will not turn this in rl money to not cause such discussion to rise here regarding who can afford or not, this is another matter.
Again in terms of isk, I'd say that something borthering around 10, 20 billions could be considered an exclusive collectors item with a certain public to afford it. More than that, although many could afford it, it would take a bit of more incentive to justify the investment.
For cheap, it also depends if ccp's intention is to make NEX accessible to new players too. If yes, this is a complicated question because it would have to drag the values of common items down to something a new player with 30 days at space could afford and im sure this value is very minimal and wouldnt justify the development of the items.
So, yes im not sure how the " cheap" part would work, there is a lot to consider on MT behind the obvious.
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NeX is still too expensive. Fine, charge a lot of a monocle so it doesn't flood everyone's avatars, but a skirt shouldn't be so damned expensive.
When Establishments come out, how many of us will be wearing those Minmatar vest jackets? We need cheap stuff for the sake of variety when we all go drinking together, or whatever.
I believe they will keep a good balance between exclusive items ( i wouldnt call it overpriced, if they are exclusive they will be above average naturally ) and more accessible items. It's like this in any major MT games around so I suspect the model wont change much. Maybe they will go for limited time exclusive items too, ive seen around some games and they are usually good top sellers while they are offered. ( specially for collectors )
I'd like to believe there will be cheap items. But if a damn monocle is 1.4 billion isk, how much do you think tattoo sleeves, or dresses, or clothes that aren't just generics will cost? No one but the uber-rich will be able to afford anything but the very 'cheapest' items. I know I won't be able to afford anything from the store, so I'm going to have to continue handwaving Nikita's appearance.
Well it'll probably end up being that way anyways - roleplay via text channels will always be superior to clumsy avatars standing around and doing limited emotes (even if we had some). I guess we can see the clothing as a kind of ooc'ish affectation for the rl rich that are simply paying for the development of the game for poorer players(ish). Something like one of those charity banquets ...
For my part I am very disappointed it looks like there will be no player manufactured clothing on the response to this meeting but if thats the price of no gamebreaking microtransactions I guess its not the worst of all worlds.
*shrugs* - I still have mixed feelings about all this but I guess its neither as bad or as good as it might have been.
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That's a bit subjective because it depends of ccp's own market research on the actual playerbase condition x what is perceived as cheap by each one of us.
I can only give my own references on this regard, if you ask me, in terms of isk 1.4 billion is already cheap.
1.4 bil isn't cheap for me, its more isk then I've ever had in my wallet at one time, and I think that goes for a lot of people. Yes, people will buy things if they're in that price bracket, but again, my fear is that if a monocle is that much, then what's a corset going to cost? a dress? a new tattoo? Maybe you can afford it, but I can't, and so I, and a lot of other people, are completely cut off from any and all content coming out of the virtual store.
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Well, I'm relieved on the whole. I can keep playing EVE. CSM did exactly what they needed to.
I'm also astounded at those who don't know what the hubub was about, but I guess the unobservant stay unobservant.
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Nikita: for better or worse, that's the point. Some stuff is priced higher so that it's a status symbol for those who can afford it.
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That's a bit subjective because it depends of ccp's own market research on the actual playerbase condition x what is perceived as cheap by each one of us.
I can only give my own references on this regard, if you ask me, in terms of isk 1.4 billion is already cheap.
1.4 bil isn't cheap for me, its more isk then I've ever had in my wallet at one time, and I think that goes for a lot of people. Yes, people will buy things if they're in that price bracket, but again, my fear is that if a monocle is that much, then what's a corset going to cost? a dress? a new tattoo? Maybe you can afford it, but I can't, and so I, and a lot of other people, are completely cut off from any and all content coming out of the virtual store.
Honestly? I don't see a problem with this. There's a lot of us out there that can swing monocles for all characters if we'd so desire, and some will do so. CCP gets what they want, and some of us gets what we want. A vanity/collectible item. I personally won't be buying any of them (even though those boots would look sweet on Miz) since in RP I already have far more bitchin' duds as it were... but I still don't mind it.
If I couldn't buy them, eh... wouldn't bother me. Hell, if I couldn't afford it and still wanted it, it'd just spur my efforts to make money.
It's not that hard to get 1.4b ISK, really. Just takes effort and a little planning.
Besides... who says everyone's 'entitled' to anything from that store? You're not 'entitled' to a Titan either. You have to work for anything that's worth anything in this game, and I really don't mind that this store works on the same principle.
As for Graelyn's 'unobservant' choice of words: There's a major difference between 'unobservant' and 'different perspective'. I recommend a bit more care taken in word choice, as you're skirting on the edge of a few rules here.
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Your perspective, as several of us have noted, has led you not to "observe" almost every single issue that came up, bar one. I recommend a bit more care taken in reading what others have said to you.
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Back in the days of uniforms and mandatory musters, when I'd get riled up over who knows what, a CO of mine once asked, "Is this the hill you want to die on?"
For some of you, this is that hill, for others, it isn't. For people who choose not to die on this hill, it doesn't mean we're unobservant of the issues, or ignorant of the situation. It just means our priorities and choices don't match yours.
It's just two sets of people standing on different sides of the same fence.
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neat, they're looking at the performance issues
was wondering how I was going to dualclient my /sipping
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I submit you have misinterpreted the situation by leaps and bounds.
I think that particular honor goes to those that had a massive ragefit over that internal brainstorming session, then took that as some sort of writ in stone prophecy.
You're missing the point. Doing what we did served the purpose--it let CCP know exactly how we felt about that particular side of the internal discussion and made it absolutely clear to them.
I never unsubbed Bacch, and did not intend to do so unless something else came out confirming that CCP was headed towards p2w. But I did pull various alt accounts with the express purpose of voting with my wallet, even if I intended to resub them again later provided CCP didn't go full derp.
Ultimately I think the community sent a powerful message to CCP, and regardless of what their real intentions were, they now know how the community will react if they do wind up going down that road and it will make them stop and think very hard about it before going there in the future.
How much do we trust CCP's statement, incidentally? A year ago they had someone on EVE TV saying that they would never, ever go to microtransactions, ever. A year later, they're a reality. I want to give CCP the benefit of the doubt, sometimes it's hard to do.
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As for Graelyn's 'unobservant' choice of words: There's a major difference between 'unobservant' and 'different perspective'. I recommend a bit more care taken in word choice, as you're skirting on the edge of a few rules here.
[mod]Please don't backseat moderate. Either report if you think it against the rules or address the content of the comments. [/mod]
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Your perspective, as several of us have noted, has led you not to "observe" almost every single issue that came up, bar one. I recommend a bit more care taken in reading what others have said to you.
I've observed them all, Casiella. I've just refuted the validity of most of them. The majority of the outrage was about P2W possibilities, which turned out to have never existed in the first place. Then came the prices and low selection in the NeX store. The few valid concerns with the expansion were almost drowned out and rarely surfaced from beneath the waves of bandwagoneering ragers that pulled tiny tidbits out of context and blew them way out of proportion.
Again, go hit the complaint threads and start counting, then tell me I'm wrong.
Misan: My apologies. I didn't report it since it didn't break the rules, but came very close. I'll stick to clicking the report button in the future.
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Your perspective, as several of us have noted, has led you not to "observe" almost every single issue that came up, bar one. I recommend a bit more care taken in reading what others have said to you.
I've observed them all, Casiella. I've just refuted the validity of most of them. The majority of the outrage was about P2W possibilities, which turned out to have never existed in the first place. Then came the prices and low selection in the NeX store. The few valid concerns with the expansion were almost drowned out and rarely surfaced from beneath the waves of bandwagoneering ragers that pulled tiny tidbits out of context and blew them way out of proportion.
Again, go hit the complaint threads and start counting, then tell me I'm wrong.
By the number of times we have repeated this i guess its fair to state that unless we start doing anti ccp comments and shooting monuments and spamming forums with a thousand ragequit threads, we wont be " observant enough ' to their taste . :twisted:
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That's a bit subjective because it depends of ccp's own market research on the actual playerbase condition x what is perceived as cheap by each one of us.
I can only give my own references on this regard, if you ask me, in terms of isk 1.4 billion is already cheap.
1.4 bil isn't cheap for me, its more isk then I've ever had in my wallet at one time, and I think that goes for a lot of people. Yes, people will buy things if they're in that price bracket, but again, my fear is that if a monocle is that much, then what's a corset going to cost? a dress? a new tattoo? Maybe you can afford it, but I can't, and so I, and a lot of other people, are completely cut off from any and all content coming out of the virtual store.
As pointed elsewhere 1.4 bill isk isnt really any value of importance, considering that any veteran player doing whatever you fancy can acquire that in a blink of an eye. New players , different story and i already discussed this on my previous post.
So yes it all depends of which public ccp is aiming to reach with the NEX store but its unlikely they will do something completely foreign and away from reasonable player's possibility to acquire if they so wish after all, you can buy from other players with isk.
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By the number of times we have repeated this i guess its fair to state that unless we start doing anti ccp comments and shooting monuments and spamming forums with a thousand ragequit threads, we wont be " observant enough ' to their taste . :twisted:
Not at all. I understand quite well that reasonable, well-meaning people can reach different conclusions and choose different courses of action. I understand that some players decided that the level of information did not reach their threshold for concern, or that specific issues such as CQ performance or tone of communications did not affect them for whatever reason. I respect that, and in some cases (CQ performance) share the conclusion. CQ runs just fine on my system, including with two simultaneous clients, so I never lambasted CCP for that issue.
That differs significantly from claiming that the set of those who have chosen differently are, to use a common term in the US, "single issue voters", and that their reasons for having reached their conclusions have always been invalid. The spectrum of issues discussed in today's statements should make it clear that neither of those claims hold any water.
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By the number of times we have repeated this i guess its fair to state that unless we start doing anti ccp comments and shooting monuments and spamming forums with a thousand ragequit threads, we wont be " observant enough ' to their taste . :twisted:
Not at all. I understand quite well that reasonable, well-meaning people can reach different conclusions and choose different courses of action. I understand that some players decided that the level of information did not reach their threshold for concern, or that specific issues such as CQ performance or tone of communications did not affect them for whatever reason. I respect that, and in some cases (CQ performance) share the conclusion. CQ runs just fine on my system, including with two simultaneous clients, so I never lambasted CCP for that issue.
That differs significantly from claiming that the set of those who have chosen differently are, to use a common term in the US, "single issue voters", and that their reasons for having reached their conclusions have always been invalid. The spectrum of issues discussed in today's statements should make it clear that neither of those claims hold any water.
If the first lines of your statment is actually what you think, I believe you should reconsider your words here:
http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?action=post;quote=35703;topic=2529.30;last_msg=35712
They are quite contradicting, specially for a moderator participating on a thread where different opinions has been clearly stated. The mere fact that "observing " and " non observing " categories were allowed to take place here shows that you are inclined to defend your side of the argument even in detriment of some counterparts.
And no, again I disagree with your interpretation of what has been stated several times by Miz and myself. Our statements are clearly directed to the point of how the community perceived actions are not adequate to the actual situation in question, and how the really serious concerns were addressed not by screams and shoutings and rage but by mature, direct and less panicked unrealistic ways.
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I think your link may not go where you intended?
And for the record, I've already completely recused myself from any moderation in this thread.
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I think your link may not go where you intended?
I think it didnt. here is the copy of what i wanted to link:
Quote from: Casiella on Today at 06:36 PM
"Your perspective, as several of us have noted, has led you not to "observe" almost every single issue that came up, bar one. I recommend a bit more care taken in reading what others have said to you."
(which PS: wasnt addressed to me but I find it quite biased in such terms against your own previous words.)
And for the record, I've already completely recused myself from any moderation in this thread.
Not surprising, would be really strange otherwise.
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I stand by both of those statements, actually, since the issues brought up at the beginning of the thread reference people allegedly having "a freakin' hissyfit over absolutely nothing." You're focusing on the first part ("hissyfit"), while several of us take issue with the second part ("absolutely nothing"). Mizhara goes on to focus exclusively on "those that had a massive ragefit over that internal brainstorming session," again ignoring all the other issues that came up.
I do agree that quite a lot of the raegfaec posts on the forums and elsewhere went far beyond what any reasonable person should post. The trolls in the thread wishing CCP Pann's little girl well struck me as particularly shameful and I desperately hope that some of them got permabans.
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I stand by both of those statements, actually, since the issues brought up at the beginning of the thread reference people allegedly having "a freakin' hissyfit over absolutely nothing." You're focusing on the first part ("hissyfit"), while several of us take issue with the second part ("absolutely nothing"). Mizhara goes on to focus exclusively on "those that had a massive ragefit over that internal brainstorming session," again ignoring all the other issues that came up.
I think that there is little room for doubt about what was the focus of the discussions here concerning disproportional overreaction of some forum spammers x actual realistic concerns that should have been addressed in a less "hyssyfit " style.
I do agree that quite a lot of the raegfaec posts on the forums and elsewhere went far beyond what any reasonable person should post. The trolls in the thread wishing CCP Pann's little girl well struck me as particularly shameful and I desperately home that some of them got permabans.
Absolutely.
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There is no point discussing that aspect Senn. Just ignore it and move on.
Or make more constructive posts like this of course.
On a side note, there isnt really anything to be discussed, end of the day there will be people who finds screaming and shouting and shaving avatar heads something quite hot. :twisted:
Your protest was at least a bit original and didnt include forum posts with caps on and profane words. So there was a single plus there a measure of pleasure and entertainment blended with it all.
As I said, there's no way to be constructive about it.
The last thread you started on this inferred, even in the title, that people are "overreacting." So far, your commentary on this event has placed you in the crowd of people who truly think the problem was that CCP was selling a monocle for $70. If you think that's the most obscene thing I've seen an MMO company do, you're wrong. You, and the majority of the crowd speaking in CCP's favor - or at least speaking to the effect of this being "not a big deal," don't see, or more likely just refuse to see, past the surface issue.
If it doesn't concern you, even the slightest, that CCP would devote patch downtime and company resources to making a solitary, rusty room that burns out people's graphics cards, engineering an entirely new monetary system with a brand new currency for the SOLE purpose of buying $25 imaginary shirts, and then respond to player concerns with a dev blog that addresses NONE of the valid issues players have put forward, then I just honestly don't know what to say.
There's zero chance of the "unsubbing" crowd and the "no big deal" crowd reaching a stasis issue.
Love the dismissive attitude, by the way. Really drives the point home that you'd rather feign indifference than consider the ramifications of CCP's mentality.
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As I said, there's no way to be constructive about it.
Then your point for posting is being non constructive?
The last thread you started on this inferred, even in the title, that people are "overreacting." So far, your commentary on this event has placed you in the crowd of people who truly think the problem was that CCP was selling a monocle for $70.
If you read posts on this very thread you'll see, this was answered already.
You, and the majority of the crowd speaking in CCP's favor - or at least speaking to the effect of this being "not a big deal," don't see, or more likely just refuse to see, past the surface issue.
Gets back to the the very posts between myself Miz and Cassiela. Best you read that than me retyping all over again.
If it doesn't concern you, even the slightest, that CCP would devote patch downtime and company resources to making a solitary, rusty room that burns out people's graphics cards, engineering an entirely new monetary system with a brand new currency for the SOLE purpose of buying $25 imaginary shirts, and then respond to player concerns with a dev blog that addresses NONE of the valid issues players have put forward, then I just honestly don't know what to say.
Read this thread.
Love the dismissive attitude, by the way. Really drives the point home that you'd rather feign indifference than consider the ramifications of CCP's mentality.
Doctor heal thyself? :twisted:
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Revan, as you clearly don't intend to engage constructively with criticisms of your and Mizhara's approach, I see no use in my continuing with this discussion.
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Revan, as you clearly don't intend to engage constructively with criticisms of your and Mizhara's approach, I see no use in my continuing with this discussion.
I dont believe that you have engaged constructively to any points made against your views either so I'm quite happy on discontinuing this discussion with you. There is nothing to be said between us that haven't been said already along the previous posts.
And for all that matters, ccp blog and the current reality has been stated, there will be those unhappy who will finally quit and those who are happy will stay and enjoy the game. It's business as usual for all parts concerned.
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They addressed my concerns. Why wouldn't I be re-subbing? I haven't yet though, but that's just because I re-evaluate each time I'm re-subbing my subscription anyway.
And as for "much ado about nothing"... lol, I think not. The community reaction no doubt gave CCP something to consider.
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My entire concern with CCP was the possible implementation of pay-to-win items. And, before that is dismissed out of hand, keep in mind CCP had already promised us that they would never implement such items.
Imagine, if you will, that you are the leader of a sovereign nation, and you sign a peace treaty with another nation. They vow never to attack or harm you, your citizens, or your military personnel. Then imagine a secret document is leaked with the other nation's secretary of state, secretary of war, and several other high-placed officials discussing the best way to assassinate you and invade your country.
This analogy explains why so many people felt that CCP's newsletter was a breach of trust. It's not just that CCP was discussing something we didn't want, it was that some were advocating doing something they had promised to never do. While it falls short of a dead body and a smoking gun in evidentiary terms, it is not illogical to consider it evidence of a possible intention on CCP's part to, basically, betray the player base.
We the player base are not, unlike law enforcement, required to wait for someone to actually do something we don't care for before we throw a "hissy fit" and bring out the handcuffs. We can make our viewpoints on the subject known, and loudly, if we so desire. Regrettably, some of us are more eloquent than others, but that doesn't mean the concerns themselves are without merit.
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rabble rabble
If I hadn't read the thread, I wouldn't be posting. And I think when pointing out when someone is too hellbent on being right to the point of ignoring the talking points of others, it's highly constructive to point out how nonconstructive the argument has become. Which, right now, is exactly where we are.
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So a couple days ago, I wrote up a blog entry on this subject and stuck it on Gamasutra (http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/JamieBrewer/20110701/7894/Tonight_the_Stars_Revolt__Notes_on_an_Eve_Scandal.php), meant as a sort of explanation for people on the outside of Eve. (The editors featured it on the front page, yay.) One of the major points I made was that if CCP had communicated clearly and unambiguously that they were upholding the earlier commitment to do vanity items only, much of the furor would have been calmed. Instead they left the door open to interpretation and the mob ran with it.
So now the report of the CSM has come out and one of the acknowledgements from that is that they screwed up in the communication department. I like to think that validates my reading of the situation a bit. ;)
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So, crisis resolved (mostly). WW3, a cataclysmic thermonuclear war was averted, and thousands rest comfortably in their beds with active EVE accounts. Perhaps we can be content that multitudes that may have considered departing have chosen to reconsider, hm?
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Lots of issues combined to make some players annoyed.
The underwhelmingness of the whole CQ thing itself. It's 1 style out of 4 promised ones. There's only 1 object that the avatar interacts with (the sofa). The lighting on it seems a bit funny. Spend 10 minutes, and you've seen everything that it offers.
The performance of CQ. It makes graphics cards sweat. Even when it doesn't, it adds to docking time, which if you're in and out all the time (doing in-space activities) is inconvenient.
The interface differences. Harder to tell which ship it is that you have active now.
Removal of the looking at ship view while docked, if not using CQ for performance reasons.
These things mean that the release is not very inspiring. Ordinarily, people would say "worst expansion ever" and keep playing regardless.
The prices of the NeX items aren't even a real issue. Claiming that was the key issue is rather misleading, I'd think.
Then there were these newsletters and emails that were brought out. They created the impression that CCP were ignoring the problems EVE has, in favour of trying to get players to pay more. This is poking a disgruntled bear with a stick. It didn't help.
And so "worst expansion ever" turned into "outrageous, I'm out of here" and so on.
Now, this statement by CCP/CSM looks to have addressed things, but only time will tell.
As for why people began seeing CCP as "the enemy", then it is previous PR disasters such as alleged dev favouritism, ingame event rigging, the whole "18 months" debacle, and various other things, such as saying one thing and doing another, that have helped create this situation.
Constant drip, drip, drip of things, rather than a single event.
They've lost some trust, and will need to do a lot better to regain it.
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To me, these past few weeks have been very illuminating.
I'm perfectly aware that EVE, in its completely and utterly broken form, is the best MMO out there.
Since I resubbed, I have not paid a single cent to CCP for my time in EVE, its all been PLEX and if I play EVE in the future I will make sure that CCP will not get any money from me. Of course it is debatable that by playing by PLEX gives cash to CCP or not, for me personally its a moot point.
No money has been transferred from me to CCP and for me that suffices.
The reason why I will let my sub run out?
In the first two years or so, what I wanted from EVE and what I got from EVE was pretty much the same.
During that time I started to see what I wanted from EVE and what CCP wanted from EVE started to go into two different directions.
The next two years I was happy toying around with the PF, playing with the broken toys that CCP had provided, listening to the empty promises they made about fixing all that is broken.
Then TEA came around and broke my lovely little bubble where I believed that New Eden was a living and breathing universe where things happened by following laws of causality.
So I did the only thing a subscriber can do to show CCP what they were doing was something that I did not approve with.
I let my subscription run out.
Two(or so) years later Incursions were coming out, I got the five days and started burning ISK for the sub. Incarna was coming out soon so I could keep burning ISK, so I could check it out.
Incursions are what they are.
CQ is what it is.
The vision that CCP has for the future of EVE is something that I do not want to give my money or time for.
I will keep my toe in the community because the bastard in me will love the constant drama that ensues.
The constant state of shock that the community is in.
The innocent statements of surprise when the community gets buggered by CCP.
Which only happens because they empower CCP by burying their heads in the sand time and again.
Been there, done that.
I will check out Incarna with the free time that CCP will provide when it wants more of my money.
I will not give them any, I will just keep burning my ISK if I enjoy the content.
But as far as I can tell, it won't be worth the zeroes and ones that it is made up from.
Don't get me wrong.
I don't hate CCP, I do not hate EVE.
EVE is just something that is not worth my time.
I do love New Eden.
As a setting it is wonderful, but for some reason when CCP gives more information about it the worse it gets.
The same separation that happened with the game has been happening with New Eden in the past few years.
I do like my toys, I do not want to throw them out of the pram.
But once you find out that they all have been painted with lead based paint...
And the rubber wand that you have been taking out for your adventures turns out to be your grandmothers old dildo...
You kind of want to put the toys down and get out of the pram.
PS. If you have billions of ISK in your wallet, do a small calculation in your head on how long you can play EVE without giving CCP any money. It is quite liberating to see your wallet go empty for the time that you spend in game spinning ships. You kind of realize how meaningless the in game stuff is.
Just my 0.02 ISK.
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Yeah, already saw that. The whole thing can be shortened down to the following:
"See? You all had a freakin' hissyfit over absolutely nothing."
Now to tally up how many of the ones who "unsubbed" actually follows through with it. My ISK is on zero or close to it.
I have to say, the insanely loud and viciously enraged mob mentality that was going on shamed the entire Eve community.
are you kidding? I'm pretty sure the reason that this all went through in the way it did at all was because of the noise the players made. CCP wanted to see our actions, and we showed them. I see this as a victory for the community, and its something the gaming world isn't going to forget quickly.
And frankly we will never know if CCP buckled in over the constant whine (cheese included in this case, a full meal) or if they simply ignored that alltogether and listened to the few constructive concerns players made.
And frankly, we will never find out. If CCP admits to buckle in over the childish complaint and rage storm, that sends the message that players can cry over every minor thing and CCP will alter it, if only ot shut the whiners up.
If they ever state that the crying players had no effect on their decition and only the calm but stern complaints were listend to, people will keep raging that CCP don't care and don't listen - even if they prove to have done so, ironically.
Lose-lose situation for them, in that case. I am simply happy this chaming event is over with and hopefully resolved soon, the bad publicity tihs game got is likely more damaging in the long run than some non-vanity item in a store anywhere.
"EVE Online? That game where palyers rage about like imputent children over anything, even a simple vanity-item in a store?" - Most non-players of this game will not understand the context, and most articles I've read about tihs event has miss-interpited the issues players raged over. None of this has helped the game or community at all.
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They addressed my concerns. Why wouldn't I be re-subbing? I haven't yet though, but that's just because I re-evaluate each time I'm re-subbing my subscription anyway.
And as for "much ado about nothing"... lol, I think not. The community reaction no doubt gave CCP something to consider.
I would be careful when using the word " community " without specifications. You certainly dont mean eve community correct? because that would imply at least the majority of around what 40 thousand players who pay subscription and we see logged in eve everynight and who you can't assume that they are or will be put on the same baskin as the 2% who actually bother using forums or around what 2 thousand players who decided to shoot the monument in Jita.
Important to remember that from forum users even you did have those who didnt support this whole " revolt " affair so when you refer to " community reaction " I take that you are describing " the community of the 2% ? playerbase who bothers using eve forums and who are against ccp's new policies.
I would even conduct an interesting statistic work if i bothered to find the time to compare how many players actually composes that huge ragequit megathread and see in % how much of that composes of the 40k around " eve community " players.
Putting things into perspective is a good way to start.
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"EVE Online? That game where palyers rage about like imputent children over anything, even a simple vanity-item in a store?" - Most non-players of this game will not understand the context, and most articles I've read about tihs event has miss-interpited the issues players raged over. None of this has helped the game or community at all.
The generalization was uncalled for, as I pointed above there was no " eve community " tantrum, there was a " eve online forum community " reaction that like everything else on this debacle, got blown out of proportions.
As for the midia, can't blame them: drama makes good news and to make drama look even more dramatic is their job. So I'm sure the event wasnt misinterpreted by the media, it was what was reflected from the poor forum ragequit spammers posters who innundated at least 90% of the eve general forums plus a natural tendency of the media to make things tenfold worse than they are for their own use.
Did it have a good image for eve " playerbase? " no, it didnt. made everyone look like idiots with forks and sticks. Now, what about the game? Not sure and we will only have that answer in a near future. Ever heard that every publicity is good even bad one? Ive seen new players in game saying they came to " check eve ' because the press scandals and they wanted to see what eve was all about.
Yes, bad publicity CAN have good results. It's pseudo logic almost, basic class studies on any marketing University around. Sometimes as good as subliminal itself.
So yes, dont be surprised if we see numbers of subscriptions skyrocking again in the coming weeks. I wouldn't.
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NeX is still too expensive. Fine, charge a lot of a monocle so it doesn't flood everyone's avatars, but a skirt shouldn't be so damned expensive.
When Establishments come out, how many of us will be wearing those Minmatar vest jackets? We need cheap stuff for the sake of variety when we all go drinking together, or whatever.
I believe they will keep a good balance between exclusive items ( i wouldnt call it overpriced, if they are exclusive they will be above average naturally ) and more accessible items. It's like this in any major MT games around so I suspect the model wont change much. Maybe they will go for limited time exclusive items too, ive seen around some games and they are usually good top sellers while they are offered. ( specially for collectors )
I'd like to believe there will be cheap items. But if a damn monocle is 1.4 billion isk, how much do you think tattoo sleeves, or dresses, or clothes that aren't just generics will cost? No one but the uber-rich will be able to afford anything but the very 'cheapest' items. I know I won't be able to afford anything from the store, so I'm going to have to continue handwaving Nikita's appearance.
That's a bit subjective because it depends of ccp's own market research on the actual playerbase condition x what is perceived as cheap by each one of us.
I can only give my own references on this regard, if you ask me, in terms of isk 1.4 billion is already cheap. I will not turn this in rl money to not cause such discussion to rise here regarding who can afford or not, this is another matter.
Again in terms of isk, I'd say that something borthering around 10, 20 billions could be considered an exclusive collectors item with a certain public to afford it. More than that, although many could afford it, it would take a bit of more incentive to justify the investment.
For cheap, it also depends if ccp's intention is to make NEX accessible to new players too. If yes, this is a complicated question because it would have to drag the values of common items down to something a new player with 30 days at space could afford and im sure this value is very minimal and wouldnt justify the development of the items.
So, yes im not sure how the " cheap" part would work, there is a lot to consider on MT behind the obvious.
The major problem here is, 1.4 billion is NOT cheap. Revan, not everyone can smoke a few billion worth of ISK on clothing just like so - even those who do will measure the cost of that shirt vs a faction fitted faction BS, for instance. I know that, for 1.4 billion, I'd have a carrier, fuel and if not all the mods I need, then nearly all of them. THAT is what 1.4 billion is worth to me, for instance.
Also, it's absurd from a RP pow. ISK is worth alot of money in nearly any currency the planet-dwellers use, anywhere. If I am supposedly able to walk the streets of any mega-city on any high-end planet, any clothing shop should sell stuff I can realistically buy. Even the most wealthy planet-dwellers buy clothign that ammounts to a few hundred isk, at most. Yet we capsuleers have to shelve out billions worth for a simple shirt? WTF? Is it made out of platinum, woven with high-grade true-silver and enchanted by the gods to make me uber?
No... It's just a shirt. It's made of cloth. I don't expect it to cost me my soul.
The monocles and other implant grade items? Let them be expensive, I don't care. The monocle is ugly and imho Revan looked ALOT better without it ;D
I just want to be able to buy a small assortment of clothing and stuff to make my toon look even slightly Intaki again, not this generic fella who for all we know, is a young Amarrian living in Stain x.X
Hundreds of isk for basic clothing. Thousands at most. Even then, whoever sold it will make absurd ammounts of money on us poor gullible podders :)
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I don't really see it as all that absurd from an RP POV. Our economy is separated from dirtside economies. When there suddenly comes a store that caters only to capsuleers, and get perfect exclusivity on the capsuleer market, why wouldn't they pander to the wealthy? Sure, not everyone will be able to afford it, but go take a walk along the shopping district in your town and ask yourself if everyone can afford those nifty brand-name or designer clothes.
Most of us can't. We wear generic clothes because they're within our price-range. Capsuleers wear generic clothes because it's within their price-range... and some of us can afford to buy massively overpriced bits of cloth because they're made by a certain designer or marketed by a certain store.
You're not paying for the cloth. You're paying for the 'prestige' and status. Just like the ridiculous designer clothes in real life.
I don't see an RP issue with it at all, nor do I see a problem with it being exclusive to wealthy capsuleers. Personally, I'm not going to be shopping at the NeX store because I doubt I'll ever RP with the Incarnavatars, and I consider my in-space ships to be the 'real' clothes of a capsuleer. My own status symbols are my high-priced and expensively fitted combat vessels I plunge into combat with little hesitation. This still doesn't mean I have any problem with NeX store items being exclusive. Hell, I like it.
We're not entitled to free/cheap carriers, faction ships or supercaps in Eve. Why would we be entitled to cheap/free vanity items of an exclusive nature?
Besides... if you've played the game for a year or so, it really isn't that hard to get ahold of the 1.4 billion for a monocle, or less for the rest of the items. Or for that matter, the money for a carrier, or a faction ship or whatever you are after. It's all a matter of what you personally prioritize getting, over what you're willing to forgo to get it, just like with everything else in life.
I am a paramedic with a fairly lousy salary. I have bought a brand spanking new Alienware m17x r3 laptop because I chose to set aside a little money and forgo spending it on fancy clothes or that nifty sound system for the car, or whatever else... because I prioritized, and because I know I'm not entitled to anything for free.
Why should Eve work differently?
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The major problem here is, 1.4 billion is NOT cheap. Revan, not everyone can smoke a few billion worth of ISK on clothing just like so - even those who do will measure the cost of that shirt vs a faction fitted faction BS, for instance. I know that, for 1.4 billion, I'd have a carrier, fuel and if not all the mods I need, then nearly all of them. THAT is what 1.4 billion is worth to me, for instance.
Of course but as I said it's subjective, depends of each player and not only their wallet per se but their priorities as well.
What does 1.4 billion is worth really its the balance between " how easy it is for you to get it x how long it would take ". Too many variants on each individual to even start debating that.
Also, it's absurd from a RP pow. ISK is worth alot of money in nearly any currency the planet-dwellers use, anywhere. If I am supposedly able to walk the streets of any mega-city on any high-end planet, any clothing shop should sell stuff I can realistically buy. Even the most wealthy planet-dwellers buy clothign that ammounts to a few hundred isk, at most. Yet we capsuleers have to shelve out billions worth for a simple shirt? WTF? Is it made out of platinum, woven with high-grade true-silver and enchanted by the gods to make me uber?
No... It's just a shirt. It's made of cloth. I don't expect it to cost me my soul.
It depends of the cost of your soul I guess lol. But nah, of course it makes sense but it isnt difficult to understand what ccp is looking at. I believe that we could take that NEX " noble exchange " like the most expensive Haute couture out there. ( despite the terrible discrepancy on items fashion and description)
The monocles and other implant grade items? Let them be expensive, I don't care. The monocle is ugly and imho Revan looked ALOT better without it ;D
The monocle is terrible lol. And I dare saying, like any uber expensive fashion item out there, they are ugly and ridiculous expensive so I think ccp at least made that stereotype fit. ooc, i bought it for collector items, I think it's priceless to have the first most expensive item of the NEX, if nothing else for the mark of its introduction and all controversies around it. So yes for my own collection.
IC, not much choice there, I doubt that Revan's insanity would let her escape from the monocle's fate. She finds it highly fashionable btw. ( goes to say ). And of course to endorse the rp aspect that Revan is one of the capsuleers supporting NEX, ( will come an ISD interview soon about it ) so it's only logical that she will have to endure the sleepless nights having to be awaken and aware because Jade has engaged on a single quest to shave her other eyebrow for great justice.
The pains of rp!
I just want to be able to buy a small assortment of clothing and stuff to make my toon look even slightly Intaki again, not this generic fella who for all we know, is a young Amarrian living in Stain x.X
Hundreds of isk for basic clothing. Thousands at most. Even then, whoever sold it will make absurd ammounts of money on us poor gullible podders :)
I would make a bet on basic clothing landing around a few millions, maybe 10, 15 to start but I'm not sure. Until we know if cpp intends to make NEX available to new players as well, will be difficult to understand the pricing policy.
But I guess we will when new items starts to be released.
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That's true. I'm guessing what I'm really asking for is what many others want too; simply a greater collection of possible clothing/dodads hair-cuts etc.
Ultimately, I don't care if vanity itemsare only for the really really rich - let them be, they are after all vanity items.
Guess if I had made this clearer at first it would not have conflicted with the 'I want cheap vanity items' line I basically delivered earlier.
I wan't a better range of options for toon custumization, not for avatar-RP (dear gods no, did that in WoW, not impressed) but to make my 2D poirtrait look more defined. I'd love to be able to see from someone's avatar what race, bloodline and gender they are. Sometimes, on some toons, tihs is near impossible on a first glance. That might be a good thing from genetic viewpoints, but clothing and hair-cuts and tatoo's etc. are depended on culture, not genetics.
Meeh, in the end, I'll just wait and see. If they ever implement it, I'll be more happy than I am.
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They addressed my concerns. Why wouldn't I be re-subbing? I haven't yet though, but that's just because I re-evaluate each time I'm re-subbing my subscription anyway.
And as for "much ado about nothing"... lol, I think not. The community reaction no doubt gave CCP something to consider.
I would be careful when using the word " community " without specifications. You certainly dont mean eve community correct? because that would imply at least the majority of around what 40 thousand players who pay subscription and we see logged in eve everynight and who you can't assume that they are or will be put on the same baskin as the 2% who actually bother using forums or around what 2 thousand players who decided to shoot the monument in Jita.
Important to remember that from forum users even you did have those who didnt support this whole " revolt " affair so when you refer to " community reaction " I take that you are describing " the community of the 2% ? playerbase who bothers using eve forums and who are against ccp's new policies.
I would even conduct an interesting statistic work if i bothered to find the time to compare how many players actually composes that huge ragequit megathread and see in % how much of that composes of the 40k around " eve community " players.
Putting things into perspective is a good way to start.
Well, I think we could debate the exact meaning of community in depth in a thread all its own, but that's kind of beside the point. I mean community in the casual manner. The percentages of people involved are pretty difficult to discuss, but when a lot of the community's opinion-leaders take up the cause, I think I can say "the community reaction" with confidence.
On a tangent, I think it's actually pretty brilliant for CCP to have formalized a mechanic for the community to reveal it's opinion-leaders. That's exactly what the CSM is. On the other hand, I think that what elections and politics are too, heh.
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Well, I think we could debate the exact meaning of community in depth in a thread all its own, but that's kind of beside the point. I mean community in the casual manner. The percentages of people involved are pretty difficult to discuss, but when a lot of the community's opinion-leaders take up the cause, I think I can say "the community reaction" with confidence.
On a tangent, I think it's actually pretty brilliant for CCP to have formalized a mechanic for the community to reveal it's opinion-leaders. That's exactly what the CSM is. On the other hand, I think that what elections and politics are too, heh.
Let's remember that CSM was elected with what, 8, 95 of playerbase vote? Somenthing like that, so I wouldn't call them even closer to be community leaders despite whatever labels and titles they do have on that regard. It's fashionable, it's a great PR stund by CCP, it works to direct the media around but it's a farse. Although I admit I have a highly biased opinion about CSM because i hate it since its inception, so take my words with a grain of salt.
And yes, about community its a delicate term and I particularly dont like it when people generalize it. I see it tossed around very often around here, community this, community that without actually accounting for what they really are. It's a poor term that can be easily misplaced to use as propaganda for opinions that arent really reflecting the reality of a situation.
It gives the impression of a much larger consensus about something that isnt really there.
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(well made point)
Mizhara's post is the most compelling explanation I've seen yet for the cost of items in the NeX store. Personally, I'd still feel things would be overpriced if they halved the costs, but I'm a poor newbie saving up for my first cruiser. I've been given to understand that they're planning to release more items with a broader price range over time.
But Miz is right: If we're the wealthiest individual powers in the galaxy, why shouldn't our trademarked, brand named jackets cost as much as a small city? Would someone like that ever want to be seen wearing something off a rack in Wal-Mart?
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I'm with bloodbird on this.
I don't want expensive designer clothes. I just want my character to look the way she looks in my head.
Sure, expensive vanity items for the super rich, fine, I can get on board with that, but when there's literally no options for anything besides the super duper expensive, and generic "hi I'm from The Gap in Space" it gets irritating.
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Let's remember that CSM was elected with what, 8, 95 of playerbase vote? Somenthing like that, so I wouldn't call them even closer to be community leaders despite whatever labels and titles they do have on that regard. It's fashionable, it's a great PR stund by CCP, it works to direct the media around but it's a farse. Although I admit I have a highly biased opinion about CSM because i hate it since its inception, so take my words with a grain of salt.
Just as in the real world if you don't vote then its quite easy to discount your opinion. (alternatively you can protest of course but I think thats not something on the evidence of this and other threads you appear to support either) - of course this particular CSM was a peculiar thing - there were a few candidates (trebor, seleene, meissa) elected by general support while most were alliance power bloc appointees and the impact of that was for people to consider them less representative because well - they were not really that representative of the general community. But as I said, if you don't vote then you can't really complain that much so the 85-90% silent majority doesn't get to complain when other opinion-makers are considered.
And yes, about community its a delicate term and I particularly dont like it when people generalize it. I see it tossed around very often around here, community this, community that without actually accounting for what they really are. It's a poor term that can be easily misplaced to use as propaganda for opinions that arent really reflecting the reality of a situation. It gives the impression of a much larger consensus about something that isnt really there.
Counts both ways though. In this recent explosion I think you were expressing a minority viewpoint in favour of Microtransactions in all their dodgy glory up to and including Perfect World International style game-breaking effects. Of course you can claim that the "silent majority" was behind your opinion but is that any more accurate or credible than those speaking of community outrage over the leaked memos, "greed is good" and $1000 pants scandal? I don't think so.
End of the day we will agree to differ here. You and Mizhara have a right to consider all the protesters and annoyed players in the scathing terms you have condemned them. Other people have a right to consider this stance reactionary at best.
I'm content that the majority of outrage expressed by the community (who cared to make a public statement) was reasonable and valid. There was cause for this scandal and the fact it was carried by a large array of gaming sites and commentators suggests others hold this opinion. The compromise offered now by CCP is "okay" in my eyes but I remain deeply distrustful of the NeX concept and I think it is gnawing away at the special something that makes Eve a game worth playing.
Sure there were extremists on the protester side, but there were extremists on the anti-protester side and the numbers of monocle-trolling threads got absolutely ridiculous. Some people just like forum drama on both sides. Those people *shrugs* thats the internet really. But more troubling to me going forwards from here is the apparent motivation of pro-NeX commentators...
Because what I perceive in the supporters of NeX is a desire to flaunt their rl wealth over other players in a way that brings no reward to conventional players of the game (via industry and manufacture) and I find it a distasteful assault on the foundations of the game a lot of us have played and enjoyed for a long time.
I am disappointed that the CSM did not come back with a commitment from CCP to deliver a certain percentage of Incarna content outside of the NeX store.
So despite my general happiness that CCP have answered the entirely valid concerns of the player-base over CQ performance/functionality issues. And despite my feeling that the PTW issue may abate on the vanity-only pledge:
I am left with lingering disquiet over the Nex/Vanity item concept as a whole and as other people in this thread have stated; if the only way to properly customize and personalize our characters in Incarna is going to be to reach for the credit card via NeX and bypass traditional industry/manufacture in the gameworld to do it, then I'm of the feeling that something of the soul of Eve has been lost and the minority in favour of vanity MT's ...
Crowd-sourced survey from EO assembly hall (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1395464)
Will have managed to ruin something rather precious in their need to access their creditcards to showoff in a hitherto purist sandbox subscription universe.
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(well made point)
Mizhara's post is the most compelling explanation I've seen yet for the cost of items in the NeX store. Personally, I'd still feel things would be overpriced if they halved the costs, but I'm a poor newbie saving up for my first cruiser. I've been given to understand that they're planning to release more items with a broader price range over time.
But Miz is right: If we're the wealthiest individual powers in the galaxy, why shouldn't our trademarked, brand named jackets cost as much as a small city? Would someone like that ever want to be seen wearing something off a rack in Wal-Mart?
A better question is If we're the wealthiest individual powers in the galaxy why can't we build clothing factories and manufacture space-fabrics and found our own fashion empires in the grand tradition of the sandbox? We can build battleships, dreadnaughts and titans that can level planets. Why exactly can't we build a miniskirt?
NeX makes me feel like a cash-cow to be milked not a heroic space-entrepreneur.
Not exactly the right direction is it ?
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Just as in the real world if you don't vote then its quite easy to discount your opinion.
Indeed, too bad it isnt my case. I vote and I pay subscription so my opinion counts and stands as presented.
(well made point)
Mizhara's post is the most compelling explanation I've seen yet for the cost of items in the NeX store. Personally, I'd still feel things would be overpriced if they halved the costs, but I'm a poor newbie saving up for my first cruiser. I've been given to understand that they're planning to release more items with a broader price range over time.
But Miz is right: If we're the wealthiest individual powers in the galaxy, why shouldn't our trademarked, brand named jackets cost as much as a small city? Would someone like that ever want to be seen wearing something off a rack in Wal-Mart?
Answer is they should! Makes a lot of sense in general and for what we have seen from the launch, that's where the base premisse of NEX is coming from which is cool, perfect valid introduction.
Although, I foresse a lot of diversity too so maybe NEX will range from ultra exclusive brand clothing and other vanity items to more common stuff accessible to the majority of capsuleers too.
Again, speculations until we see it in practice.
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Just as in the real world if you don't vote then its quite easy to discount your opinion.
Indeed, too bad it isnt my case. I vote and I pay subscription so my opinion counts and stands as presented.
I raised the point to refute your assertion that the low voter turnout rendered the CSM position of "representing the community" null - since if you don't vote you have voluntarily given up your chance to register an opinion. This is not about whether you have chosen to vote or not but about the "silent majority" (who don't vote) and their relevance to the discussion at hand. Your opinion can certainly "stand" as you presented it - whether it "counts" or not will depend on whether people are persuaded on the merits of your logic.
Note ... calling on a murky "silent majority" of op-outs to back one's debating position is less convincing than calling on a vocal minority of active passionate people who are doing their best to "op-in" on current discussions and have voted in player elections. Whatever else I might think of individual CSMs this time around I do feel they accurately reflected community disatisfaction with CCP post Incarna launch in the statement they released.
(Now of course I'm hoping they get back into the battle with round two on the issue of NeX monpoly of Incarna content.)
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Answer is they should! Makes a lot of sense in general and for what we have seen from the launch, that's where the base premisse of NEX is coming from which is cool, perfect valid introduction. Although, I foresse a lot of diversity too so maybe NEX will range from ultra exclusive brand clothing and other vanity items to more common stuff accessible to the majority of capsuleers too. Again, speculations until we see it in practice.
Perhaps you'd like to take a shot at answering my follow-on question from this quote.
"A better question is If we're the wealthiest individual powers in the galaxy why can't we build clothing factories and manufacture space-fabrics and found our own fashion empires in the grand tradition of the sandbox? We can build battleships, dreadnaughts and titans that can level planets. Why exactly can't we build a miniskirt?"
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Just as in the real world if you don't vote then its quite easy to discount your opinion.
Indeed, too bad it isnt my case. I vote and I pay subscription so my opinion counts and stands as presented.
I raised the point to refute your assertion that the low voter turnout rendered the CSM position of "representing the community" null - since if you don't vote you have voluntarily given up your chance to register an opinion. This is not about whether you have chosen to vote or not but about the "silent majority" (who don't vote) and their relevance to the discussion at hand. Your opinion can certainly "stand" as you presented it - whether it "counts" or not will depend on whether people are persuaded on the merits of your logic.
It's not null, numbers aren't alleatory. If you have 40 thousand players playing eve, eve community is made of 40 thousand players. Not a few dozens of them.
Silent majority still plays eve. Still pays subscription and their relevance is taken by ccp very seriously in the cash count, unless you have any doubts about that?
And my opinion stands because different than you i dont feel need to persuade anyone to " my cause ". There is no such interest here I know where I stand thats why it's my opinion. It will stand and it will count as much as any other rabble rabble here and be sure it has the same weight value as any of ours 20 dollars paying credits to ccp.
NEX to be is a great thing. It adds another layer to the game, it is a good business proposal to the company and it's not obligatory to any one who doesnt wish to interact with it.
I'm very satisfied with CCP proceding with their plans as intended.
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Perhaps you'd like to take a shot at answering my follow-on question from this quote.
"A better question is If we're the wealthiest individual powers in the galaxy why can't we build clothing factories and manufacture space-fabrics and found our own fashion empires in the grand tradition of the sandbox? We can build battleships, dreadnaughts and titans that can level planets. Why exactly can't we build a miniskirt?"
We can play this model of " WHY " all day and end of the day we will have developed a brand new game alltogether. why this , why that, why cant things be like this, why things arent like that? Because CCP had a different plan and implemented it they way they found better. It's their game, their company, we are buying their services as it is. Nothing else.
I also have lots of Whys regarding why things are like X and not like Y as " everyone thinks their way is always the correct way and feel outraged otherwise right? right?"
Best way to solve it is build your own MMORPG according to every detailed specifications. CCP have their own plans lover, love it or hate it. It's how it is.
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I'm with bloodbird on this.
I don't want expensive designer clothes. I just want my character to look the way she looks in my head.
Sure, expensive vanity items for the super rich, fine, I can get on board with that, but when there's literally no options for anything besides the super duper expensive, and generic "hi I'm from The Gap in Space" it gets irritating.
Quotes herself for emphasis. I find it irritating that the only people allowed to express themselves or dress their characters up in any way to be the super duper rich. This strikes me as irritating, immersion breaking, and just plain stupid on CCP's part.
Because CCP had a different plan and implemented it they way they found better. It's their game, their company, we are buying their services as it is. Nothing else.
I personally don't hold that view. Eve is my game, its my money that helps keep it running, I feel like I should have a say in how its developed.
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It's not null, numbers aren't alleatory. If you have 40 thousand players playing eve, eve community is made of 40 thousand players. Not a few dozens of them. Silent majority still plays eve. Still pays subscription and their relevance is taken by ccp very seriously in the cash count, unless you have any doubts about that?
Silent majority can be counted upon to justify anything. If CCP had announced it was being bought out by Martians interested in harvesting human livers for foodstock the silent majority would not register their opinion. The reality is that some people feel passionately about subjects and speak up. Any kind of change or protest or opposition is always a minority of the civil populace. But yes, I believe it is the dip in subscriptions and (threat of such) that made CCP take notice of this current protest and allay some of the fears of the protesters - in that much I imagine you are now agreeing with me.
NEX to be is a great thing. It adds another layer to the game, it is a good business proposal to the company and it's not obligatory to any one who doesnt wish to interact with it. I'm very satisfied with CCP proceding with their plans as intended.
In your opinion. And you have a right to your opinion. Hence your many and fervant postings to this effect. Just as those of us who believe you are wrong have our right to post our opinions. Such is the nature of debate and public dialogue.
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We can play this model of " WHY " all day and end of the day we will have developed a brand new game alltogether. why this , why that, why cant things be like this, why things arent like that? Because CCP had a different plan and implemented it they way they found better. It's their game, their company, we are buying their services as it is. Nothing else.
Backstage is a forum for the discussion of matters impacting Roleplaying in Eve Online. I consider my question of "why" our superrich and influential capsule pilot demigods are unable to start our own clothing manufacture industries is quite pertinent to this. You cite blind faith in CCP's plan and its a little cute - but fortunately CCP themselves have admitted their capacity to mess up and do things wrongly just yesterday. Its my hope this "plan" will also be revealed as a mistake in the long term.
Best way to solve it is build your own MMORPG according to every detailed specifications.
I imagine if you were to buy a handbag from a clothing store in real life and the carrying strap fell off when you returned home with it you'd not be best amused if when returning to complain the lady in the store suggested your best way to "solve the problem" was to invest in your own company and design a new line of handbags that would be manufactured to your exacting (ie non-falling off straps) specifications.
This is a spurious counter-argument at best.
CCP have messed up many times in the past with bad "plans".
This is what we are discussing now.
And finally.
CCP have their own plans lover, love it or hate it. It's how it is.
I will respond with a quote from a book I believe you should read as a matter of extreme priority.
"I've been a soldier and a slave. I've seen my comrades fall in battle or die more slowly under the lash in Africa. I've held them in my arms at the final moment. These were men who saw life as it is, yet they died despairing. No glory, no brave last words, only their eyes, filled with confusion, questioning "Why?" I don't think they were wondering why they were dying, but why they had ever lived. When life itself seems lunatic, who knows where madness lies? To surrender dreams - -this may be madness; to seek treasure where there is only trash. Too much sanity may be madness! But maddest of all - -to see life as it is and not as it should be." ~Don Quixote
A segment from one of my favourite films that you know well.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttTDDa5r_vo&feature=related[/url)
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Silent majority can be counted upon to justify anything.
As much as a imaginary " community " I take it? :twisted:
But yes, I believe it is the dip in subscriptions and (threat of such) that made CCP take notice of this current protest and allay some of the fears of the protesters - in that much I imagine you are now agreeing with me.
Absolutely not. Come with a spreedsheet with this current month data 2 weeks prior to the forum troll revolution and covering a period till 2 weeks after comparing number of dip in subscriptions versus new subscriptions and NEX profit and if the value comes to minus I'll gladly agree with you.
I'm an engineer not a poet. I like numbers not revolutions to base my arguments.
Perhaps when we have the numbers we can speak the same language. Till than , you speak of poetry and beautiful pseudo romantic revolutions which can be indeed passionate but not logical in any sense, and definately not useful for company policies.
And stop posting while im writing, ugh. ill answer the rest in another post.
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You cite blind faith in CCP's plan and its a little cute - but fortunately CCP themselves have admitted their capacity to mess up and do things wrongly just yesterday. Its my hope this "plan" will also be revealed as a mistake in the long term.
Blind faith is very different than living reality. I'm very happy with the current reality of the game and i simply choose to not join conspiracy theories of a possible butterfly effect parallel universe future which many are dweeling upon now.
Let's just put it simple, I prefer to enjoy the present as it is than living in a miserable bitter shape about a suspicion paranoid future that ' may be ".
If CCP does anything that displeases me , ill certainly issue my disastifaction as I have done in the past through petitions, private talks and reasonable means.
It's as simple as that really.
I imagine if you were to buy a handbag from a clothing store in real life and the carrying strap fell off when you returned home with it you'd not be best amused if when returning to complain the lady in the store suggested your best way to "solve the problem" was to invest in your own company and design a new line of handbags that would be manufactured to your exacting (ie non-falling off straps) specifications.
Let's see, is the handbag a Louis Vuitton , or a 1 $ take it all handbag?
It matters a lot for a propper answer.
There is also another matter into the place here: My handbag is in perfect shape, thank you.
Now, if yours is broken and you return to the store, I advice you use the proper mediums to register your complaint instead of assalting the store and beating the seller to death hum?
;)
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in previous presentations/ fanfests/ devblogs/ etc. CCP have talked about Incarna, and have seemed a bit lost for words to come up with answers to "what is Incarna for ?"
One thing they did mention was the possibility of player businesses, and possible careers. Although they seemed rather half-baked. They mentioned "hairdresser, bartender, tailor" as possible "careers" in Incarna. Yes. Quite. A battleship pilot cuts hairdos on the side. Anyways...
However, with these microtransaction clothing and accessories, it has kind of torpedoed even those half-baked ideas they did come up with. What role is there for a "dressmaker" when the NeX store exists ?
Incarna still seems like having Big Questions as to what it is for.
As for the NeX items being expensive, then, well, it's unfortunate, but it would appear the idea behind it is that the extremely wealthy can and will buy such things, whereas those that do not have that amount to spend will not. The whole purpose of the NeX store is to allow wealthy characters another option to demonstrate their wealth, other than multi-billion isk ships. Conspicuous consumption and all that.
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As for the NeX items being expensive, then, well, it's unfortunate, but it would appear the idea behind it is that the extremely wealthy can and will buy such things, whereas those that do not have that amount to spend will not. The whole purpose of the NeX store is to allow wealthy characters another option to demonstrate their wealth, other than multi-billion isk ships. Conspicuous consumption and all that.
So far it's what it seems yes.
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(well made point)
Mizhara's post is the most compelling explanation I've seen yet for the cost of items in the NeX store. Personally, I'd still feel things would be overpriced if they halved the costs, but I'm a poor newbie saving up for my first cruiser. I've been given to understand that they're planning to release more items with a broader price range over time.
But Miz is right: If we're the wealthiest individual powers in the galaxy, why shouldn't our trademarked, brand named jackets cost as much as a small city? Would someone like that ever want to be seen wearing something off a rack in Wal-Mart?
A better question is If we're the wealthiest individual powers in the galaxy why can't we build clothing factories and manufacture space-fabrics and found our own fashion empires in the grand tradition of the sandbox? We can build battleships, dreadnaughts and titans that can level planets. Why exactly can't we build a miniskirt?
NeX makes me feel like a cash-cow to be milked not a heroic space-entrepreneur.
Not exactly the right direction is it ?
I never said I liked the idea, or that it ought to be that way :) Simply that the reasoning makes sense.
I stand with others who simply want their characters to look as they do in the player's heads without having to shell out money I can barely afford to give up.
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While I can't agree that not voting for CSM makes one's opinion irrelevant, it certainly does make criticisms of the CSM as unrepresentative of the playerbase sound rather hollow.
At any rate, I was always more concerned by CCP's complete failure to communicate both prior to and following the Incarna release and the leak-induced shitstorm than most of the issues, in particular in the realm of expectations management. The Incursion rollout was a masterstroke. Zulu's devblog (http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=814) hit every high point: Here's what's gone wrong, here's what we're doing to fix it, here's what you're going to get until it's fixed, and we ran this all by the CSM to make sure the player's reps thought it was a good idea.
For Incursion, all we got was a smattering of devposts saying "Uh, things aren't going so well." No communication of their MT pricing strategy, even to the CSM. No coherent messaging. Coming so close, the $99 issue didn't help either.
Of course, this is setting aside the actual serious problems with Incarna that no degree of messaging would help with. Blowing up people's computers is not cool. Reducing functionality is not cool. The underwhelming nature of CQ was just gravy.
(You know, I'm wondering if the little things initiative may actually have hurt CCP here. Instead of having a pile of minor improvements to point at and say, "Hey look at the cool stuff you're getting with Incarna," they let that out early and left the problematic stuff for the nameplate change. Just a thought. I'm still in favor of their more-frequent release schedule overall.)
As for those extolling the virtues of luxury goods, can you at least agree that the initial release, consisting solely of luxury goods, stands in tension with CCP's desire to make EVE the go-to simulator for all things sci-fi? It doesn't really work if your avatar is locked into a single set of clothing into perpetuity unless you can afford the opportunity cost of at a minimum hundreds of millions in ISK. Considering the strong influence of cyberpunk and other less-than-high-society literature on EVE's aesthetic, having only luxury goods is deeply absurd. And yes, I realize they've stated an intent to develop lower-end items. That doesn't invalidate the point, since this discussion appears to be about whether the initial discontent with CCP was justified, and we didn't have access to that information at the time.
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Crisis and drama over miscommunication but that's :psyccp: and :psyccp:'s community for ya.
Glad the waves and winds in the teacup have calmed a little.
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Blind faith is very different than living reality. I'm very happy with the current reality of the game and i simply choose to not join conspiracy theories of a possible butterfly effect parallel universe future which many are dweeling upon now. Let's just put it simple, I prefer to enjoy the present as it is than living in a miserable bitter shape about a suspicion paranoid future that ' may be ". If CCP does anything that displeases me , ill certainly issue my disastifaction as I have done in the past through petitions, private talks and reasonable means.
It's as simple as that really.
I am sure your one user account at that point will make quite an impact.
Let's see, is the handbag a Louis Vuitton , or a 1 $ take it all handbag? It matters a lot for a propper answer.
Since Eve is the most expensive and rarefied of mmorpgs then clearly the expensive handbag makes sense for the analogy.
There is also another matter into the place here: My handbag is in perfect shape, thank you. Now, if yours is broken and you return to the store, I advice you use the proper mediums to register your complaint instead of assalting the store and beating the seller to death hum?
For the purposes of the example your expensive hangbag's straps have broken off and the lady in the shop tells you rather than replacing the faulty model you should resolve your issue by building a new handbag factory and designing a replacement - this was the essence of your advice to me earlier.
As much as a imaginary " community " I take it? :twisted:
Clearly it is not imaginary since its disquiet convinced CCP to summon the CSM's to iceland and hold a press conference to address community issues to representatives of the gaming media. You may think it is "imaginary" - CCP clearly do not.
Absolutely not. Come with a spreedsheet with this current month data 2 weeks prior to the forum troll revolution and covering a period till 2 weeks after comparing number of dip in subscriptions versus new subscriptions and NEX profit and if the value comes to minus I'll gladly agree with you. I'm an engineer not a poet. I like numbers not revolutions to base my arguments.
First point I would say that the "forum trolls" on the whole were the counterrevolutionaries in this instance. The "monocle elite" were generally recognized forum trolls and opposed the community concern in this instance. Second point - again clearly CCP as a company recognized a danger to their bottom-line in subs and income and have taken steps to address that. If you like "numbers" then consider the expense of flying in CSM reps and industry gaming reporters and put that against the monocle sales.
Perhaps when we have the numbers we can speak the same language. Till than , you speak of poetry and beautiful pseudo romantic revolutions which can be indeed passionate but not logical in any sense, and definately not useful for company policies.
For balance I should say that I feel your arguments are more "poetic" and whimsical than mine actually by quite a significant degree.
Simple reality is a company does not engage with crisis talks with its community unless it recognizes there is a serious problem. Point.
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I am sure your one user account at that point will make quite an impact.
Not sure what you tried to imply by that. Every user account pays the same, does the fact that my one or two or 3 or 7 or 200 user accounts gives ccp any rights to treat customers differently in your view? Maybe you are a bit upset because what you say in forums is largely different than what you say in privately regarding such opinions.
And the answer is no, they dont treat anyone different because they have one or 3 or two or whatever number of accounts active. I certainly dont feel any difference now that eve holds only rp interest to me to keep revan there than when i had other accounts active to other matters.
Honestely not sure where you are going by this.
CCP does not discriminate and the impact continues to be the same as any 20 dollars subscription per account is.
Since Eve is the most expensive and rarefied of mmorpgs then clearly the expensive handbag makes sense for the analogy.
Good, befitting of NEX and MT transactions.
Clearly it is not imaginary since its disquiet convinced CCP to summon the CSM's to iceland and hold a press conference to address community issues to representatives of the gaming media. You may think it is "imaginary" - CCP clearly do not.
I clearly dont see 40 thousand players joining the forum protests. please redirect me to your numbers and ill state that your " eve player community ' really exists and that the forum protests were the motivators of the PR stund other than simple marketting advantage at your costs.
. If you like "numbers" then consider the expense of flying in CSM reps and industry gaming reporters and put that against the monocle sales.
Numbers please? calculations to prove your statement?
For balance I should say that I feel your arguments are more "poetic" and whimsical than mine actually by quite a significant degree.
Im actually not the one frustrated about the game here dearest. Neither the one having that conversation last night about it. im in fact quite happy with the results so per default you could count my supposed arguments by presenting the numbers that have been requested.
Simple reality is a company does not engage with crisis talks with its community unless it recognizes there is a serious problem. Point.
Or unless there are good PR to be made from it.
We know your pick dont we? lol
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Earlier post so you can remember what I was referring to.
Blind faith is very different than living reality. I'm very happy with the current reality of the game and i simply choose to not join conspiracy theories of a possible butterfly effect parallel universe future which many are dweeling upon now. Let's just put it simple, I prefer to enjoy the present as it is than living in a miserable bitter shape about a suspicion paranoid future that ' may be ". If CCP does anything that displeases me , ill certainly issue my disastifaction as I have done in the past through petitions, private talks and reasonable means.
It's as simple as that really.
I am sure your one user account at that point will make quite an impact.
Not sure what you tried to imply by that. Every user account pays the same, does the fact that my one or two or 3 or 7 or 200 user accounts gives ccp any rights to treat customers differently in your view? Maybe you are a bit upset because what you say in forums is largely different than what you say in privately regarding such opinions. And the answer is no, they dont treat anyone different because they have one or 3 or two or whatever number of accounts active. I certainly dont feel any difference now that eve holds only rp interest to me to keep revan there than when i had other accounts active to other matters. Honestely not sure where you are going by this.
CCP does not discriminate and the impact continues to be the same as any 20 dollars subscription per account is.
Then ask for clarification rather than assuming some great conspiracy. My comment was that your sole account worth of private petitions would would be worth very little in the long run unless you were joined by a great number of other players protesting the issue that caused you problems. A lone voice is easy to ignore at the corporate level - especially since we have all acknowledged that bulk subscription figures are the only thing that matters to the bottom line.
Good, befitting of NEX and MT transactions.
You have a right to an opinion. I disagree of course and I believe you have not presented a persuasive argument in any way shape or form as to how an expensive subscription-based game is "befitting" of NeX and MT transactions. Free to play games yes - subscription-based - no.
I clearly dont see 40 thousand players joining the forum protests. please redirect me to your numbers and ill state that your " eve player community ' really exists and that the forum protests were the motivators of the PR stund other than simple marketting advantage at your costs.
I believe I addressed your "silent majority" argument earlier.
Im actually not the one frustrated about the game here dearest. Neither the one having that conversation last night about it. im in fact quite happy with the results so per default you could count my supposed arguments by presenting the numbers that have been requested.
As you know from our private conversation I am quite unhappy about the NeX situation in eve yes. By all means make mileage by refering to such. I will be more closed-mouthed on the subject in the future. I am frustrated about the game yes. I think it is going in the wrong direction. Obviously you disagree.
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As you know from our private conversation I am quite unhappy about the NeX situation in eve yes. By all means make mileage by refering to such.
You indeed made it quite secret by your public posts. I'm sure everyone is quite shocked to know that you are against NEX in eve online by this revelation.
I will be more closed-mouthed on the subject in the future.
Considering the number of your forum posts stating your disastifaction, thats quite a statement right there.
I am frustrated about the game yes. I think it is going in the wrong direction. Obviously you disagree.
That you are frustrated about the game? No i dont disagree. I know it is so.
That the game is going on the wrong direction? Yes I disagree.
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You indeed made it quite secret by your public posts. I'm sure everyone is quite shocked to know that you are against NEX in eve online by this revelation.
Fortunate that I'm entirely consistent on my private and public statements on the subject then is it not.
I will be more closed-mouthed on the subject in the future.
Considering the number of your forum posts stating your disastifaction, thats quite a statement right there.
Perhaps I should have said ... "in private" but since the private so often becomes public I'm unsure there remains much a distinction.
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Perhaps I should have said ... "in private" but since the private so often becomes public I'm unsure there remains much a distinction.
I can notice that you have problems finding such distinctions of late indeed. Specially considering where it's going from here and the level of interest that will hold for public affairs at this point.
I'll resume my debate with you in private for the good running of the forum. There isnt really anything that i have left to discuss with you of public interest that wasnt done so on the previous posts.
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I can notice that you have problems finding such distinctions of late indeed.
I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about with quote specifically.
But in general you have made your opinions about MT in Eve abundantly clear in general.
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Dammit, Z. I just wrote a long post about how the whole failure emits from CCPs poor communication and you had already written some of it.
The public uproar achieved what it should; it made CCP aware of the need of communicating their plans and reasons to their player base. In fact, something they have had success with in the past but for some unknown reason forgot (again).
Especially reasons and greater goals have been lacking in the communiqué from CCP recently. Most blogs are coming out after the changes have been implemented and often just states what have been done but not why. I am still puzzled about the reasons why the viewing of faction standings had to go; all I got is player speculations.
To add: I never pushed the "unsubscribe" button and was not close. I am also running CQ in game though I fear it might overheat one of my machines.
My annoyance with the MeX is the lack of player constructed goods for purchase and the non-dynamic market value of the items. CCPs seem to be aiming at their own foot here having put themselves in a position where they have to set/predict the value of each item. Truthfully, the monocles are not *that* good looking and I have yet to see a character portrait looking better due to a monocle. The jackets and shirts are uninteresting too. The only thing I think look stylish is the female skirt but I cannot buy one as I have nothing it will match.
The shot will go off when CCP introduces a low AUR cost item with high appeal.
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Yeah, already saw that. The whole thing can be shortened down to the following:
"See? You all had a freakin' hissyfit over absolutely nothing."
Now to tally up how many of the ones who "unsubbed" actually follows through with it. My ISK is on zero or close to it.
I have to say, the insanely loud and viciously enraged mob mentality that was going on shamed the entire Eve community.
are you kidding? I'm pretty sure the reason that this all went through in the way it did at all was because of the noise the players made. CCP wanted to see our actions, and we showed them. I see this as a victory for the community, and its something the gaming world isn't going to forget quickly.
Vocal forum users are a very small minority of CCP's client base. CCP would not change their LONG TERM corporate stratergy, in a week, based on the outcry of a minority of its customers.
All the back patting and cries that things were accomplished by forum rage is missplaced.
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Vocal forum users are a very small minority of CCP's client base. CCP would not change their LONG TERM corporate stratergy, in a week, based on the outcry of a minority of its customers.
All the back patting and cries that things were accomplished by forum rage is missplaced.
Short, Medium and Long term corporate strategies are set with the combined efforts of several departments and agreements made beforehand with purchasing, quality, financial backups, designers, engineering. I'm not trying to compare of course standards of a game company with the ones of the area of my expertise, although every business model do follow lines of same strategy and many common requirements for operating in the business ferocious world of making profit nowadays.
Your statement is very accurate Graanvlokkie.
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Yeah, already saw that. The whole thing can be shortened down to the following:
"See? You all had a freakin' hissyfit over absolutely nothing."
Now to tally up how many of the ones who "unsubbed" actually follows through with it. My ISK is on zero or close to it.
I have to say, the insanely loud and viciously enraged mob mentality that was going on shamed the entire Eve community.
are you kidding? I'm pretty sure the reason that this all went through in the way it did at all was because of the noise the players made. CCP wanted to see our actions, and we showed them. I see this as a victory for the community, and its something the gaming world isn't going to forget quickly.
Vocal forum users are a very small minority of CCP's client base. CCP would not change their LONG TERM corporate stratergy, in a week, based on the outcry of a minority of its customers.
All the back patting and cries that things were accomplished by forum rage is missplaced.
I don't believe anybody is claiming that the forum protests alone accomplished the change in CCP's outlook over CQ's/restoration of hanger view/limit of MT items and apology for the various documents.
Unsubscriptions and the financial bottom line will be the biggest mechanism to force a change of policy (though I do believe bad press in the industry will also have an impact).
Mittani has a post on FHC where (though covered by NDA an unable to discuss specifics) he admits to being pretty surprised by the very high level of unsubscriptions CCP revealed to the council in Iceland. (http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?2663-DEVBLOG-accord-reached-at-ccp-s-special-summit&p=138854&viewfull=1#post138854)
"You don't spend ~$25k on last-minute flights to Reyk if unsubs aren't a problem. I personally think that 'actions not words' forms the template for effective playerbase protest - just whining does nothing, mash the unsub button and CCP /notices/.
Obviously I can't comment on the numbers, save that they blew my estimates out of the water. It wasn't an 'eve is doomed' situation but it was fugly. But in the future, should CCP begin publicly misbehaving, I think this incident proves that the most effective method of protest the players have is to unsub. You don't even need to ragepost about it, but unsubbing >>>>> all other means of protest. "
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I think it is naive in the extreme to conclude that the recent protests had no role in bringing CCP to revise their plans and outlooks (and indeed directly contradicts CCP's own formal word on the subject given to the community by their chief producer.)
Make absolutely no mistake - this was a great victory for the community who found a voice in unified protest over extremely unpopular changes to the game.
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Crisis and drama over miscommunication but that's :psyccp: and :psyccp:'s community for ya.
Glad the waves and winds in the teacup have calmed a little.
Eve online forums starts to reflect that, which is good. Maybe many have left the game at last or they finally got tired of the screaming spamming and got back to business as usual.
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in previous presentations/ fanfests/ devblogs/ etc. CCP have talked about Incarna, and have seemed a bit lost for words to come up with answers to "what is Incarna for ?"
One thing they did mention was the possibility of player businesses, and possible careers. Although they seemed rather half-baked. They mentioned "hairdresser, bartender, tailor" as possible "careers" in Incarna. Yes. Quite. A battleship pilot cuts hairdos on the side. Anyways...
However, with these microtransaction clothing and accessories, it has kind of torpedoed even those half-baked ideas they did come up with. What role is there for a "dressmaker" when the NeX store exists ?
Incarna still seems like having Big Questions as to what it is for.
And this remains a very important questionmark hanging over Incarna in my mind certainly. If the answer is "its basically one big vanity display cabinet" then I think there is every reason for the community to continue to be very annoyed about the amount of development that has gone into this. If on the other hand there will be non-Nex content delivered then I'd like us to start hearing about it sooner rather than later.
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Article detailing the press conference on Massively: http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/07/06/eve-online-press-conference-answers-vital-questions-transcript/ to add on to the blog.