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[Mizhara]

Goons "lost" WWB, yet they walked away with 90% of their assets and membership intact and very quickly established a position stronger than the one they had just been forced out of.

Which demonstrates very nicely that losing in Eve is something you can come back from. It's worth it.

If we consider that the usual "win" of an Eve war cannot be applied (making your opponent quit the game) here, we very quickly end up in a situation where the war won't end, not because people aren't willing to lose, but because they don't think they are losing.

I'm going to keep using Mizhara v AmarrBloc because it's the only example that's really pertinent right now. These next points are hypotheticals intended to show why things quickly lock into a status quo.

Mizhara thinks she is winning because SFRIM/ARC/etc are unable to stop her from hunting and killing their individual pilots.

SFRIM/ARC/etc think they're winning because Mizhara is unable to meaningfully disrupt their primary content (RP/Hive Ops/etc) as an organisational whole.

Neither side have any reason to surrender.

I would agree with this... if it hadn't been for the long list of complaints, privchats and so on. You can see it pretty consistently in these kinds of conflicts. Thanks to the mechanics of Eve, you can almost always twist things to make it look like you're doing just fine, IC in particular, in spite of the OOC stuff saying otherwise. You're of course right that in a lot of cases both sides can be "winning" both by their own metrics and simply by dint of neither side really affecting the other too much, but this doesn't apply to all such conflicts. I'd especially say it doesn't if there's this much desire to end it OOC.

As my first FC and PvP mentor Arkady Sadik used to say,

"Wardeccing RPers is largely pointless. They're the only group in the game who often enjoy being docked more than undocking."

Ain't this the truth? When I get complaints about who I go after for a kill and have to explain "... yeah but they were literally the only ones undocked that I could find." I genuinely wish it'd make sense to just fuck off back to some null entity.

[Synthia]

You literally showed you weren't, during the Jovian meme worm thing.

That's not my recollection at all. What are you basing that on ?

[Samira Kernher]

You literally showed you weren't, during the Jovian meme worm thing.

That's not my recollection at all. What are you basing that on ?

I said it in the first part of my post. Complaining OOC about getting hit with -10 standings because of the willful choice to withhold the items CONCORD requested.

I think I'm misremembering though. The Jovian meme worm incident might have been something else. I was referring to the Corrupted Tinary Relic withheld during the timey wimey event. If the two were separate events then that's my mistake and I apologize. I associated the two together since you mentioned standing hits.

[Synthia]

I said it in the first part of my post. Complaining OOC about getting hit with -10 standings because of the willful choice to withhold the items CONCORD requested.
I think I'm misremembering though. The Jovian meme worm incident might have been something else. I was referring to the Corrupted Tinary Relic withheld during the timey wimey event.

That's the Jovian Meme Worm affair, right enough.
VV, as far as I remember, was fine with the near -10 sec status (it was something like -9.7) inflicted by CONCORD for having sassed the CONCORD actor, and demanding a custom Sanctity dress. Perfectly reasonable, and self-inflicted. Comedy gold.

What, I recall, she was annoyed OOC about was the agitating by some players, about how VV's other standings, to the likes of the Federation, State, etc. should also be set to -10, all of them, because the -10 sec status was "too light" a punishment. Which she apparently perceived as some kind of conspiracy to exclude her from future live events, because ofc, -10 standing, even with diplomacy V, means you get the faction police chasing you all the time, and correcting those standings is a very tedious process.

Imo, -10 sec status for sassing the CONCORD actor = fine, (and hilarious)
-10 Amarr standing for doing something heinous in Amarr space = also fine
-10 standing to all four of the major powers = yeah, that's effectively banning someone from participating in any future live events until such time as they correct their standings.


incidentally, about the -10 Amarr status, we had a hastily-assembled plan to do something when Empress Jamyl visited Safizon. One of our pilots was going to type "a manu dei e Tetrimon" and ping the Titan with their civ gatling laser on their Impairor.
as I understand things, because the Drifters shot the Titan, then that would have granted them the killmail, as the only player involved.
In the end, the plan fell through due to illness on the player's part.

But it would have been absolutely hilarious if it had happened.

[Silas Vitalia]

This is why the wardec mechanics are so bad for RP, it's shoehorning a one-size fits all hole that we've all had to wiggle through and twist ourselves and circumstances around.   

But then again the idea of "consequences" for immortal demigods is hard in the PF as well, aside from emotional ones and social ones regarding loss of status or baseline allies.

Eve needs real death?

[kalaratiri]

Consequences certainly exist, but they are much more along the lines of setbacks rather than true difficulties. More or less any loss of assets, reputation, time, investment, etc, can be recouped on a long enough time scale.

The true losses you mention (social/emotional) are much more difficult to code into a game mechanic.

Personally I would like to see a stellaris style "war goals" addition based around destruction of structures in space, total isk destroyed, or something similar.

[Silas Vitalia]

Stellaris style is a -fantastic- idea with a sliding war cost per goal.

[kalaratiri]

Yup. And if you go a full week without completing a goal you get a 24 hour window to finish one or the war ends.

Hire me CCP.

[Silver Night]

[admin]So, there's a lot of moddable bits in the middle of this, however as they are hopelessly entangled with useful and on topic bits (and not only is snip moderation generally frowned upon here, but I don't have the time to do it) I'm going to leave things as is since the thread seems to be steering back in a useful direction. I'm out of town 1 week and look what happens. That being said, without naming anyone specific I'm going to reiterate a couple of rules and guidelines and now that I'm back I will be carefully watching this thread to see how this experiment in being lenient goes. I would also encourage everyone to review the FAQ in its entirety. All of that being said, I do appreciate that in spite of a fraught topic that touches both on a sensitive general subject and specific current in game events this thread has been largely civil and productive. [/admin]

It is a place for civil and courteous conversation. It is not a place for flamewars, bullying, point-scoring or other asshattery. (The Mods reserve the right to define 'asshattery' as behaviour not in line with the forum's purpose). It is not a place for people to show how 'wrong' others are. It is not a place for the ventilation of personal vendettas. It is not a place for insults, either veiled or explicit. It is not a place for telling other people they are 'doing it wrong". It is not a place to carry on In Character feuds.

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[Mitara Newelle]

wtb hi sec avatar so i can get rid of that god-awful fortizar.

[Mizhara]

wtb hi sec avatar so i can get rid of that god-awful fortizar.

You can pause the timer with just two people in subcaps.

[kalaratiri]

wtb hi sec avatar so i can get rid of that god-awful fortizar.

You can pause the timer with just two people in subcaps.

I mean, technically sure. You know as well as I do that's a rather misleading comment though.

[Mizhara]

I mean... she tried in a battleship solo? Sure, I was afk at the time but still. This way the odds should go up by about 100%.

[Silas Vitalia]

I had to look up what a foritzar was. 

I'm assuming with no capitals in high sec these are just as annoying as POS's were for highsec corp fighting.

[kalaratiri]

They're actually considerably worse. It's a pilotable POS that can do over 10,000dps, has timers for both its armour and structure (which have some funky mechanics of their own), and has considerable ewar abilities within a 300km sphere. They're damage capped at 15,000dps so that even if you brought 50 battleships you'd still be on grid for at least half an hour; no way to speed things up just by bringing more numbers.

Basically they're certainly not unbeatable but they are a massive force multiplier in a "small war" like this one.