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[Mizhara]

Eh, force multiplier on that one tiny grid. It literally has zero military value in this war. There's countless freeports that'd serve the exact same mechanical purposes, while being free and less conspicuous and obvious as a staging, etc. If anything, it's a resource drain since it gains me absolutely nothing. They only really have value in lowsec/nullsec in that regard, since there they can be capital staging points, safe logistics harbors and so on and so forth.

There's quite simply zero mechanical reason for any wartarget to ever be on that grid. Hell, given its other IC purposes, it's at worst a prick in the pride.

Also, it's a lot less powerful than it seems at first glance. Without a support fleet, it's fairly easily defanged fighter wise, which means you lose a sizable chunk of dps and can't hold down any enemies. Not going to claim it'd be an easy fight, but it's not quite as powerful as it seems on paper.

Vastly worse than POSes (if you have someone online to run the defense), utterly useless and worthless in an offensive highsec war because they provide nothing you can't get for free elsewhere.

Edit: Basically, all I've done is very publicly put up a 15-30b killmail for any war target to come claim, whenever they want it. It'll never be isk efficient. It'll never be a winning fight, as long as I'm as solo as I am. It's a super carrier without a jump drive, cloak or place to dock, and I can do nothing with it offensively. It's for all intents and purposes harmless.

[kalaratiri]

Eh, force multiplier on that one tiny grid. It literally has zero military value in this war.

For the first bit; well... Obviously?

For the second, I would contest that. It is the only serious structural asset either side has in play. It is a piece of IC political bait that you understood would force a reaction one way or another, which makes it one of the few tangible "conflict points" of the war.

Hell, given its other IC purposes, it's at worst a prick in the pride.

I think you know this is an understatement. Considering its location and owner alone are more than enough for an IC Casus Belli, it's purpose is an additional slap in the face.

The only potential real world equivalent I could come up with would be New York waking up one morning to find a Saudi embassy had been erected on Ground Zero.

can't hold down any enemies.

That just isn't true. 70% webs and a 300/90km point/scram are among the most potent control modules in the game.

It's for all intents and purposes harmless.

I'm not sure that this actually matters.

[Mizhara]

Can't hold down enemies for more than 30 seconds*, satisfied? Heh. Yeah, it's got amazing control, but only long enough for an actual fleet to take over the tackling. Without said fleet, all the enemy has to do is survive 30 seconds and skedaddle. The cooldown is huge, for both webs and point/scram. Tackle fighters can do the trick, but any decent attacking fleet will screen those so easily.

And mechanically... all the things I said still hold true. Its military value is zero since none of my enemies have the slightest reason mechanically to ever be on that grid, and it otherwise gives me zero benefits. Like I said, its only 'threat' is that it's a sting to the pride, and since when have RPers ever really put much on the line for that? Especially when it's difficult?

[Silas Vitalia]

We're veering off topic but didn't they make these things anchorable anywhere or something? Can you put enemy foritzarzarzars on same grid and have the towers pew pew each other?

I don't know what war you all are talking about but there's probably still a bunch of high sec wrecking crew merc corps that will bash stations for ya for a good price

[Mizhara]

We're veering off topic but didn't they make these things anchorable anywhere or something? Can you put enemy foritzarzarzars on same grid and have the towers pew pew each other?

I don't know what war you all are talking about but there's probably still a bunch of high sec wrecking crew merc corps that will bash stations for ya for a good price

Can't anchor closer than 1000km of anything else anchorable, otherwise people'd just put them literally on gates, stations, enemy citadels etc. A citadel structure will always be outside of the targeting range of another citadel structure. As for structure bashing mercs, definitely, but they're surprisingly rarer these days than they used to be. It's basically just too boring. It's three 30m+ structure bashes, two of which happens at a time the defender decides, can't really be afk'd if the structure is armed and piloted, and has the potential for some ugly losses. This basically then translates to Fortizar bashes in highsec being expensive.

I mean, back when I was in a merc alliance, we didn't even undock short of five bill + SRP etc. It'd take more for a Fortizar kill (stage for a week or more, ships being ready/handy, etc) and when there's no real game mechanic reason to do it, that's a lot of money spent on... not being the ones getting anything done yourselves.

[Silas Vitalia]

That's terrible game design to let you put these up in highsec without capital weapons available, what shittery is that?

Anyways.  back to topic

[Mizhara]

Final sidetrack: Capitals aren't actually all that much better at taking these on without cheesing hard. Carriers can out-range the Fortizar, but in lowsec/nullsec you have access to the point defense system (basically just a giant structure sized smartbomb with awesome rotary cannon graphics) which'll shred light fighters, and a decent support fleet will eat fighter blobs anyway. Dreads need to siege for it, and thus give the Fortizar (and defense fleet) the time needed to really put the hurt on them, and if fit for it, a Fortizar does insane damage to capitals.

For capitals to be the answer, you either need significant numbers - and then you might as well subcap it anyway for far less risk/isk, same killspeed thanks to damage caps and so on - or cheese it with long range dreads/titans sitting outside of fortizar range. Supercarriers letting fighters slowboat 1-5k km is also an option, but you're basically spending more on FiBos than your enemy did on the Fortizar.

... and honestly, in highsec they're kind of easy to kill. Sure they have decent dps, but capchained Basis/Guardians in decent numbers will basically neuter it. You want to defend it against any kind of decent fleet, you need an opposing support fleet. Or some sort of very delectable cheese disabling logis.

Edited to add: Also, as mentioned, mechanically there's really not much point in taking it on. It has no actual use in highsec. You can stage/dock anywhere anyway, and all the actually useful structures are refineries/engineering complexes. The latter two being far better content generators in that they are more accessible for attacking, and can actually be useful to disrupt operations of.

[Samira Kernher]

That's terrible game design to let you put these up in highsec without capital weapons available, what shittery is that?

Anyways.  back to topic

And this is just fortizars. TEST put up a fucking highsec keepstar yesterday.

[Silas Vitalia]

That's terrible game design to let you put these up in highsec without capital weapons available, what shittery is that?

Anyways.  back to topic

And this is just fortizars. TEST put up a fucking highsec keepstar yesterday.

looks up what a keepstar is.

lol

back to our regularly scheduled topic

[kalaratiri]

Bottom stat is wars without a structure vs wars with.

In December wars are being changed so you can only declare wars against corps with structures. Full wardec revamp in first half of 2019.

[Samira Kernher]

In December wars are being changed so you can only declare wars against corps with structures.

Bullshit.

[kalaratiri]

In December wars are being changed so you can only declare wars against corps with structures.

Bullshit.

From a game design and player retention standpoint, it is absolutely the right decision.

[MakotoPriano]

Honestly, I'm hoping the 'easy interim solution' requires structures on both sides, with knocking-down of structures qualifying as war conclusion, and various caveats on structures needing to be in certain proximity.

Otherwise, as it stands, the filter feeder wardec corps will just have fewer targets, but will have no incentive to change their behavior.

[Samira Kernher]

This would basically mean that the last 4 years of RP war with Nauplius couldn't have been done. It'd mean no one could war PIE. Those wars from EM and others back in the day (if they're towards PIE), or Miz now? Couldn't be done.

And this still doesn't create any kind of victory conditions for the defender. It means purely PvP groups who can actually deal with war will be the ones who can't be warred, while industry groups who want to avoid PvP are the ones who can get warred. Miz will no longer be able to war PIE, and only be able to war with ARC/SFRIM - the people who don't want the war. If Nauplius ever does one of his one million slave sacrifices again, we'll have even fewer options to fight it than we already did.

This is complete and utter fucking bullshit. There are far better solutions to be had than this.

[MakotoPriano]

It's a bandaid. It's not even a good bandaid, but it's at least CCP realizing that this needs work.

Insofar as ARC is concerned, honestly, I expected we'd draw more attention the moment SFRIM joined the alliance proper, because numbers on dotlan equate to wardecs. The usual wardec shenanigans are to be expected, and dealt with in the usual way. In this case, it's, uh, a bit different than normal wardec shenanigans.