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Author Topic: Redux: Can you expect safety in Eve, as RPers?  (Read 43112 times)

Aldrith Shutaq

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Re: Redux: Can you expect safety in Eve, as RPers?
« Reply #60 on: 16 Oct 2018, 14:39 »

PIE does not negotiate with terrorists.
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Mizhara

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Re: Redux: Can you expect safety in Eve, as RPers?
« Reply #61 on: 16 Oct 2018, 14:41 »

PIE does not negotiate with terrorists.

Damn well hope not. Un-mutualing the war though, that's just a cheap snub.
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Aldrith Shutaq

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Re: Redux: Can you expect safety in Eve, as RPers?
« Reply #62 on: 16 Oct 2018, 14:44 »

We also reserve the right to snub opponents we deem beneath our attention. It is well-known that looking down one's nose at a lesser is an effective means of deterrence.
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kalaratiri

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Re: Redux: Can you expect safety in Eve, as RPers?
« Reply #63 on: 16 Oct 2018, 14:46 »

I didn't even want this thread to be specifically about this war.
Perhaps not, but you did introduce it to the discussion.

Quote from: Mizhara
Now, I bring this up because I've been getting a resurgence of complaints about exactly this. As some of you may know, I've wardecced pretty much the entire AmarrBloc and occasionally hunt them in high, low and null.

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Mizhara

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Re: Redux: Can you expect safety in Eve, as RPers?
« Reply #64 on: 16 Oct 2018, 14:51 »

As a general example yes, without any particular specifics. Then twice there was direct call-outs and misrepresentation. It's just unnecessary.
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Samira Kernher

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Re: Redux: Can you expect safety in Eve, as RPers?
« Reply #65 on: 16 Oct 2018, 14:58 »

Was my fault, sorry. I should have left it alone the first time around.
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kalaratiri

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Re: Redux: Can you expect safety in Eve, as RPers?
« Reply #66 on: 16 Oct 2018, 15:14 »

Is it really unnecessary? What other long term, high community involvement RP wars are going on at the moment? It's being brought up because it's the obvious example to talk about.
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Garion Avarr

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Re: Redux: Can you expect safety in Eve, as RPers?
« Reply #67 on: 16 Oct 2018, 15:24 »

So, I find that I pretty much agree with Isha on this subject.  However, to touch upon a few points in my own words:

I do believe that IC actions need to be able to have consequences enforced.  In Eve, this is very often accomplished by blowing things up.  That's part of the nature of Eve, and RP in Eve has to include this.  In principle, I think that people should follow what their characters would do as much as possible.  And in some cases, one wouldn't be being true to one's character if one didn't try their hardest to destroy another group, or ruin the life of another individual.  And, for that matter, in some cases one wouldn't be true to one's character if one ever gave in to or negotiated with such attempts.  While I may suck at Eve PvP, my personal RP philosophy is that PvP is an entirely valid -- and even needed -- part of RP, and that one should never take personally another player's attempts to completely ruin or end your character or organization's life.  It's just a game.

As a player, that works for me pretty well.

As a director of a corp in Eve, and as a community member and not simply an individual, I see the places it breaks down.

As a community member, I do still lean pretty heavily on the 'PvP is a good thing, it is fine to destroy the lives of other characters' side.  There's just no real stakes to things otherwise.  But I recognize that we also need to make sure we don't make it unfun for the other players when doing things.  We need to make sure we don't drive people away from the community.  It's harder in Eve, where you can't really accomplish the objectives of destroying organizations or killing characters very reliably without simply making things so unfun for people that they quit.  We want to avoid making people quit.  What can we do to keep people from OOC not having fun, while ruining the IC lives?  That's much harder to say.  OOC check ins with players, setting expectations, ect, are all possible steps, but the truth is, even though Eve is at its core a PvP game, everyone here has different expectations, and human beings are notoriously bad at staying objective and not losing their tempers when things aren't going their way.

As a director, I also have a responsibility to the members of my corp.  I see how things affect them OOC as well as IC.  I see their frustrations, I know that some of them want to only RP part time and just do missions or mine without worrying about a RP war the rest of the time.  Such a playstyle may not appeal to me, others may prefer to consider oneself always IC no matter what they are doing in game, but as a director, I have to ensure the needs of both our more hardcore and our more causal players are being met.  And they're not being met.  I think this can mostly be traced to problems with the wardec system itself, but it's plain to me as a director that, ultimately, playing this way leads to people leaving the RP community, either via quitting altogether or via deciding that getting involved in the RP aspect of Eve means people will target them for that when they simply want to enjoy playing Eve.



Ultimately, I believe we do need to have PvP be a strong and integral part of Eve RP.  It's frankly phony if we don't.  But when it starts driving people away -- we better start looking to fix that damn quickly.
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Synthia

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Re: Redux: Can you expect safety in Eve, as RPers?
« Reply #68 on: 16 Oct 2018, 16:29 »

I'd believe that if I ever saw people give their characters principles of any kind and make them stick. That's one of those unicorns you just won't find in Eve.

Valerie Valate, has the principle of only ever having positive standings with the Covenant, and not shooting blood raider npcs for the isk, unlike just about every other self-declared sani-sabik rper.

As for that whole thing about making unreasonable demands. Look back to that stupid Jovian meme worm incident. Several of you lot were demanding that VV be punished with standings alterations that would make her unable to participate in any future live events, unless she was to grind innumerable shitty level 1 missions. ye, no ooc salt because you lot were sick of losing stupid forum & chat arguments to VV.



So, to the thread topic question. No. You cannot expect safety as RPers.

But the danger of letting rip with full force on RP enemies, is that you strangle anything new that is tried, leading ultimately to stagnation and decay.

If there are no heretics, what fun is there in playing an inquisitor ?
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Silas Vitalia

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Re: Redux: Can you expect safety in Eve, as RPers?
« Reply #69 on: 16 Oct 2018, 21:23 »

Eve war mechanics are terrible and they've been terrible for RP for 15 years with regards to radically opposed idiology.  They work much better for RP with small scale limited Corp warfare, like say two caldari industrial corps agressing for market share or resources. They work terribly for permaconflict Amarr/Matari loyalist types, who would never surrender nor come to terms.
  we work around as best we can.   We handwave around the ridiculous circumstances often, if you want to keep your character remotely sane. 
CCP needed a more granual wardec system to integrate things like vendettas, religious conflict, economic conflict, etc to work within the various factions and have faction specific win conditions and resolution methods. A conclave! Tribal gathering! Rival ceo corp share voting blocs! Who knows.
Nauph and that style of content generation is a whole other discussion which I'll get snipped for I'm sure
« Last Edit: 16 Oct 2018, 21:25 by Silas Vitalia »
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Mizhara

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Re: Redux: Can you expect safety in Eve, as RPers?
« Reply #70 on: 16 Oct 2018, 22:49 »

As a director, I also have a responsibility to the members of my corp.  I see how things affect them OOC as well as IC.  I see their frustrations, I know that some of them want to only RP part time and just do missions or mine without worrying about a RP war the rest of the time.  Such a playstyle may not appeal to me, others may prefer to consider oneself always IC no matter what they are doing in game, but as a director, I have to ensure the needs of both our more hardcore and our more causal players are being met.  And they're not being met.  I think this can mostly be traced to problems with the wardec system itself, but it's plain to me as a director that, ultimately, playing this way leads to people leaving the RP community, either via quitting altogether or via deciding that getting involved in the RP aspect of Eve means people will target them for that when they simply want to enjoy playing Eve.



Ultimately, I believe we do need to have PvP be a strong and integral part of Eve RP.  It's frankly phony if we don't.  But when it starts driving people away -- we better start looking to fix that damn quickly.

There's been a lot of good ideas in that humongous threadnaught on the CSM Minutes on how to change the wardec mechanics, but that's ultimately not going to solve much for us short-term. We have the mechanics we have, so any solution will have to come from us. However, I suspect there won't be any solution in that regard, because the impression I get is that no one in the RP community is willing enough to lose. Instead, it'll just go on and the damage you mention will happen.
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Synthia

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Re: Redux: Can you expect safety in Eve, as RPers?
« Reply #71 on: 16 Oct 2018, 23:37 »

the impression I get is that no one in the RP community is willing enough to lose.

CTCS is. Couple others. Nauplius even.

But apparently their styles don't meet the ~~elite rp~~ criteria.
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Veiki

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Re: Redux: Can you expect safety in Eve, as RPers?
« Reply #72 on: 17 Oct 2018, 00:49 »

CCP needed a more granual wardec system to integrate things like vendettas, religious conflict, economic conflict, etc to work within the various factions and have faction specific win conditions and resolution methods. A conclave! Tribal gathering! Rival ceo corp share voting blocs! Who knows.
Nauph and that style of content generation is a whole other discussion which I'll get snipped for I'm sure

I still think it's a shame CCP never allowed the ability to conduct orbital bombardment of planetary infrastructure directly. There really isn't a limited or retaliatory strike option for RP wars -- it's either have the fleet on hand to hit a poco/citadel in terms of opposing infrastructure or nothing at all.
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kalaratiri

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Re: Redux: Can you expect safety in Eve, as RPers?
« Reply #73 on: 17 Oct 2018, 01:06 »

It really depends on what you consider losing.

This has a lot to do with what I touched on earlier when saying that there are no set victory conditions and "defeat" in Eve being an extremely nebulous concept.

Goons "lost" WWB, yet they walked away with 90% of their assets and membership intact and very quickly established a position stronger than the one they had just been forced out of.

If we consider that the usual "win" of an Eve war cannot be applied (making your opponent quit the game) here, we very quickly end up in a situation where the war won't end, not because people aren't willing to lose, but because they don't think they are losing.

I'm going to keep using Mizhara v AmarrBloc because it's the only example that's really pertinent right now. These next points are hypotheticals intended to show why things quickly lock into a status quo.

Mizhara thinks she is winning because SFRIM/ARC/etc are unable to stop her from hunting and killing their individual pilots.

SFRIM/ARC/etc think they're winning because Mizhara is unable to meaningfully disrupt their primary content (RP/Hive Ops/etc) as an organisational whole.

Neither side have any reason to surrender.

As my first FC and PvP mentor Arkady Sadik used to say,
Quote
"Wardeccing RPers is largely pointless. They're the only group in the game who often enjoy being docked more than undocking."
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Samira Kernher

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Re: Redux: Can you expect safety in Eve, as RPers?
« Reply #74 on: 17 Oct 2018, 02:21 »

As for that whole thing about making unreasonable demands. Look back to that stupid Jovian meme worm incident. Several of you lot were demanding that VV be punished with standings alterations that would make her unable to participate in any future live events, unless she was to grind innumerable shitty level 1 missions. ye, no ooc salt because you lot were sick of losing stupid forum & chat arguments to VV.

Actually, that event was a prime example of someone who couldn't deal with consequences. It had nothing to do with "losing forum and chat arguments to VV". People loved seeing it because it was amazing to see CCP actually impose real in-character consequences for in-character actions. We'd all been wanting to see that for a very long time - after CCP hit Koro and other characters with a standings drop, people (including Koro and co) loved it, and when CCP reverted it, everyone (including Koro and co) hated it. In this case, the character made the choice to stonewall CONCORD, and was threatened with consequences, continued to defy, then got hit with consequences... then whined OOC. An act which could threaten the possibility of CCP doing something like that again with other people, because, as CCP has said before, the reason they don't do that kind of stuff more often is because they can't be sure of who will actually respond to it like an adult, and who will whine and bitch.

IC actions, IC consequences.

CTCS is.

You literally showed you weren't, during the Jovian meme worm thing.
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