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[Lyn Farel]

Forgive me for chiming in...

Anslo, I am not very sure of who you are talking about with the bittervetting old guard, so bear in mind that I am only trying to speak for myself here... I honestly understand how tiring it can be to spend one's time reading negativity after negativity, and it just turns out toxic at some point. Yes, I really get that, and sometimes I also get why it annoys people to read so much negative criticism when on those forums. I mean, i'm a bit of a bittervet myself on things, and I also got that feeling at times.

I think bare a few, we actually all do it to some extent. Complaining about the lore, events, or other things.

I also think that we should be able to express ourselves and what we think, no ? I mean, I am very happy if someone tells me that it is seriously starting to border on the joy killing raining parade, especially when people or myself repeat something again and again, all rambling, and that especially, can be tiring (something you might be guilty of Silas imo, and sometimes I used to be guilty of too when I was out of the game and spoke about game mechanisms and such).

So, please don't take it personally here, but I seem to notice the opposite movement, where anybody can literally get stoned every time he/she expresses an opinion that doesn't necessarily go in the same direction than the majority, or as seen more recently, just get flak for questions where people want to assume whatever they want, is also bordering on censorship... I mean, I feel that I have been seriously wronged in the last catacombed thread because I simply got a Scud from nowhere for asking what slack is. That's a bit insane, no ?

Again, i'm not accusing anyone of being a bad person that should feel bad (really), but sometimes reading some comments on how people are bringing up criticism (thus, feedback really) for that they are jealous not to get the spotlight... Well, as I said I can't speak for everyone, I mean, I am pretty sure we can find RPers like that, but to those that really want to have those RP events and piece of news and have been asking for them to get back for years now, when pointing out what we think could be better, or what we think is not of our taste, or not very good or appreciated, or just asking simple questions, and then being on the receiving end of a salvo of "you're just jealous stop acting like a child", is well... very depressing.

So yes, personally I do not want to live in an atmosphere so bitter that it just becomes toxic, meaning that every time something new gets out everyone starts to say "that just sucks, it's stupid and CCP should feel bad for it" instead of actually trying to balance out a bit their opinion and prove to be a bit more objective and less making a hissy fit on how they are not happy... But I would also like not to have to live in an atmosphere where only content creators and cool kids get to speak their minds, where saying anything close (or not even close) to constructive but negative criticism (so, negative feedback) is frown upon, for the simple reason that I just do not have the time to devote to be that content creator, and also lack the social skills to forge myself as a cool kid or whatever...

I honestly can get the frustration on both sides... But could we agree for once to stop posting under emotive overload, for all of us, get back and take a breath, think twice about it ? I mean, it has become really deleterious as of late (past 1-2 years), between people just hating the guts of each other...

Sidenote : on the topic of the OOC/Summit issue that split up in two, I can really understand why it became a problem... I mean, I'm not going to criticize anyone because nobody was really at fault, but some people just didn't have proper access to devs, and I can understand why it was an issue. What I don't understand actually, is why after splitting up their own channels and comms, said devs just stopped playing their NPC actors... But I think that we should not mix up the reason why it was split up, and why the dev actors stopped interacting with us.

[Vizage]

I think you hit the point-of-fact Lyn when you touched on the not-so-close to constructive criticism. Because frankly finding the constructive complaint is slim-pickings here. That, I think is the crux of people's annoyances here.

A whole lot of complaining gets done and not a whole lot of actual digestible suggestions of what could be done instead.

Worse still some people ham-hock what they "wished"  would happen instead when these evidently best-case for a slim interest group and have a myriad of their own problems that when questioned are treated as personal attacks on the poster.

Cynicism is one thing, but the negativity here borderlines on Nihilism. There's just far to little substance to go with our rapid-fire shooting down of upcoming content.

For me personally, any Rp is good Rp. If you don't like something don't take part in it. I'm personally not too interested in the current "Drifter shadow"  looming on the horizon, but maybe when things kick off more I will.

That said I just consider it poor manners to criticize something I'm not even willing to invest my time in (quite frankly I don't consider myself qualified.) In Silas' case this is doubly frustrating because for people actually enjoying themselves with the current arc it's incredibly frustrating/annoying to be taking pot shots from the peanut gallery.

Silas' I mean that with no offence of course, from what I've seen of you here you've always proported yourself politely. But politeness is one thing and tact is another. Perhaps waiting till the arc is over or at least well matured before laying into it would relax much of the frustration people feel.

On the subject of toxicity on the forums, there will always be a degree of that. Difference of opinions is as natural as difference of hair colours. But if you find yourself constantly lampooning new content or belly aching about something or other perhaps it's time you sit a couple threads out.

Respecting everyone's rights to their opinions is a two-way street. If you want to bitch and complain in every world building or lore relating topic, you have to be prepared to be called a whiner in return (obviously in polite terms, cussing someone out is never acceptable.)

Just my 2 Isk

Edit: Various SmartphOwned Shenanigans

[Jennifer Starfall]

I'll be somewhat blunt. The abject negativity, pessimism, and conspiracy theorism towards Eve that is beginning to get to me. I play Eve because I enjoy it, and I'm mature enough to know that not everything CCP does will be something I want. I'm faced with two options. I can either argue with people who are entrenched in an Eve that was, some of whom don't even play anymore. Or I can leave. This is a hobbie, something I do for fun. You are not my clients, I'm not forced to put up with you.

When I say "fuck it, I'm done" and leave, my bio will point somewhere else (I found out about Backstage because other people's bios pointed here).

People don't like getting pissed on for liking something and feeling enthusiastic about it. Frankly, I'm tired of smelling like piss.

You may want to think about whether you want Backstage to be a community or an echo chamber.

[Morwen Lagann]

There is a reason I posted earlier today that Rule 11 applies to bittervetting and negative-nancying. This includes things like conspiracy theories directed at other players, accusations of favoritism, and the like, as well as prima-donna-ing about the spotlight being on people that aren't yourself. People will adjust their attitudes and posting tones when it comes to criticism or there will be some very, very unpleasant things happening to people.

As for what personally gets my goat with this subject, it's the continued laziness of quite a few people regarding the atmosphere. This -like any other forum or channel - is a community, and as members of a community you too have responsibilities that you are expected to uphold. That happens to include reporting posts or behaviors that you feel are against or otherwise detrimental to the spirit and/or letter of the rules and policies of this forum.

When I look at the reports forum - again, as a reminder, every time a report for a post is generated, a new thread is created there for that post - here's some stats for the last month:

• Nineteen unique posts were reported. These posts were located in ten different threads, for an average of just under two reported posts per thread.
• There were eleven different people who submitted reports (nine, if I do not include myself). Of these, over half (ten to be precise) were submitted by just two individuals. Only one of the reported posts was reported by more than one individual, and it was reported by two people.
• Of these reports, six were acted upon directly. An additional three were acted upon indirectly because an entire thread was moved to the catacombs. The remaining ten were not moderated, for reasons including that they're not moderatable (example: we don't really close threads just because you ask, unless there is a rules-related reason to do so), made unnecessary (example: a thread staying mostly civil despite an expected trip to the toilet), or just entirely outrageous (like reporting your own post as a personal attack to be a wiseass).

So. There's a whole lot of crying of "there's a problem" and not a lot of corresponding laser pointers indicating specific examples in our reports area, which is how we track this sort of thing. We (the mods) do not have the time or energy to read every single post you guys make. That is what the report system is for. It's supposed to draw attention to potential issues so that we can deal with it. If there is a widespread problem - and there is, it seems - you need to do your part and report things so we can more quickly act on them.

Unfortunately, a lot of people take it personally when their reports don't get acted on within minutes/hours of it being made. And god forbid the mods decide after looking at it, that it isn't actually something that we need to/can moderate because it doesn't actually break the rules? Hell, often enough we get reports about things that don't even come CLOSE to breaking the rules. So only a handful of people continue to do it.

However, this problem is not unique to Backstage, or roleplayers, or any other 'group' that we collectively fall under. This will happen no matter where people go, no matter what medium they use. It happened to Chatsubo. It's happening on EVE-O, and it's happening ingame.

You want this place - or any other - to have a better atmosphere? Get off your collective asses and do your part as a member of the community. Do yourselves a favor before you start forcing history to repeat itself, and start being part of the solution instead of passively being part of the problem. Start reporting posts that you view as problematic instead of just bitching loudly ingame or on the forum.

It bothers me, quite a bit, that we have to keep telling people to do this, year after year. It's not fucking rocket science, people.

[Lyn Farel]

Well I am not sure how you took my answer but I have to admit that it may have been a bit cryptic... To say the least. I am sorry if it was taken out of form.

That was basically just my reaction after reading the last answer, and I really didn't know what to add. I really agree on the purpose of the report system, and everything about insinuations, ascribing things to players, etc. Well, i'm pretty sure to be part of the tiny minority using that report function, which I use regularly. Please note that I do not disagree with anything about the rules and what is expected as polite culture. I have always been behind 100%...

But we are not going to better the atmosphere by telling to people that they are "prima donna ing", that people do nothing, or other insinuations, being a mod or not. Talk about ascribing nefarious motives to people... Especially when referring to the last issue with Slack. We have to take into account that not everyone has full free time on eve and cannot play content creator, spend their time on social networks, or sometimes even just play the game. Some people that have those time constraints, or just that are not involved as much as people that literally gave their life to the game, get constantly to deal with accusation of being lazy, not moving their asses, and derogatory remarks like that... Rule 11... It goes both ways!

Really, my intention with that post was first to answer to that post in the Summit section, and decided not to derail it further and moved it there. So, it was to try to present both sides of the argument so that we reach a better understanding.

I'm just really disappointed by the answers, that are not really in the spirit I was... expecting.

I mean, please do not take it as an offense or anything. I think your answers are full of good points! The first one says "if you don't like it, don't criticize". Well then, we are certainly not going to improve things by shutting up, no ? I understand that there is good criticism, and there is just utter toxicity (maybe there are different thresholds depending on the people ?)... The second one is basically an ultimatum and comparing backstage to an echo chamber... Well actually, dampening criticism and feedback sure is not going to improve it either, no ? Are we just here to give each other accolades and congratulate ? That is an important part, of course. And I think people are unfair to forget that we still do that. Especially in the last thread on the drifter autopsy, there was actually a good acclaim from everyone... That probably got drown into the drama that ensued (our of nowhere if you want my opinion on that...).

Really, it was not my intention to turn that post in yet another settling of accounts between people... I think there is a chasm between two sides, people heavily involved in content creation, and people that are not. Or, maybe, between people that fully support what we get and the current storyline, and people that think some things are not.. good ? Or disagree with ? The first ones accuse the latter to break their fun, and the latter accuse the first one to try to shut them down.

I think it's understandable, but a bit silly as a situation...

[Lyn Farel]

Also, if I may on a sidenote, rule 11 might become a problem considering how vague and twisted it can turn in my opinion. It can be used and justified for pretty much every excess I can imagine.

[Jennifer Starfall]

Lyn, there is a difference between criticism and pissing on people's enthusiasm. I have felt, personally, the latter on more than one occasion. I have seen it happen to other people.

People are excited about the Drifters. It's generating discussion and conjecture. That's good. To have people step in and proclaim that they're just another failure by CCP and will become just more farmable content is stifling and off putting. To watch people's work and initiative getting recognition resulting in accusations of favoritism and being used as an excuse to dredge up the darker moments of the game we love is off-putting and makes me want to go elsewhere.

Complaining about what CCP has done in the past is pointless; it's done and gone. Griping here about what CCP is doing now isn't going to do much; I don't believe they're involved here. You're probably better off going to the channels where they are, but be prepared for the large number of people who will likely disagree with you.

Once again, there's an important difference between "Drifters are just more pointless farmable content" and "I'm worried that Drifters will fade into another form of farmable content." One of them invites discussion.

And regarding Rule 11, rules like that have to be malleable in order to prevent rules lawyering. Very explicit, concretely defined rules are much easier to argue loopholes in. The wording makes the mods' job (which shouldn't be a job) easier to enforce. It just depends on a trust in the mods. Which is kinda fundamental in participating in a moderated community. Which, to make abundantly clear, I have, and is part of the reason I haven't left yet.

[Gwen Ikiryo]

...being used as an excuse to dredge up the darker moments of the game we love is off-putting and makes me want to go elsewhere.

Complaining about what CCP has done in the past is pointless; it's done and gone. Griping here about what CCP is doing now isn't going to do much; I don't believe they're involved here. You're probably better off going to the channels where they are, but be prepared for the large number of people who will likely disagree with you

I agree with the rest of what you're saying re: negativity, but this seems like sorta an odd sentiment, if you don't mind me saying. CCP has proven time and time and time again that they're sorta prone to corruption. Isn't that a good reason to keep a bit of a cautious and critical mindset, so it can be nipped in the bud if it ever does happen again?

Reputation matters, I think. Giving people a clean slate every time is asking to get yourself hurt.

[Anskek]

And there is still a difference between stating concerns versus proclaiming something a failure and pissing on ppls work

[Gwen Ikiryo]

And there is still a difference between stating concerns versus proclaiming something a failure and pissing on ppls work

Yeah, I know. That's not the part I meant.

[Anskek]

To me it is to an extent. Given the way people use the past as a shield for their behavior. To me these two factors are not mutually exclusive given their use here.

[Deitra Vess]

Really I don't get where any of the negativity comes from. Don't like what other people devoted their time to? Look the other way and shut up about it. The sheer amount of content created in this community is what drove me to making my char and (somewhat) tried to enter it. 85% of it doesn't appeal to me, but I at least respect the work put forth. A lot of it is really incredible if you don't look at it with rose colored glasses. If its a "been there, done that" bitter vet kinda thing, I'll ask what drew you to rping? I would imagine for a lot of you things like that. Why stop the growth of the rp community because its all been done before? Most unique ideas come from tweaking existing things.

[Vizage]

Jenn has it in this discussion I have to say. You seem to be conflating constructive criticism with raining on other peoples parades Lyn. They aren't the same thing and shouldn't be treated with equal respect.

But we are not going to better the atmosphere by telling to people that they are "prima donna ing", that people do nothing, or other insinuations, being a mod or not. Talk about ascribing nefarious motives to people...

After reading through the Conference topic, that's exactly what needs to be done. Anslo provided you with a response on the topic, specifically telling you that Slack is how he communicated with CCP to get their hard work pushed forward. Then in either an act of extreme negligence/laziness or just simple "Bittervett'ing" you decided to heavily imply a level of Favoritism using the rather choice word of "buddying." If I had have seen this post before the whole thing got C...Katacombed you had better believe a flamebait report would have been dropped. To Anslo credit he took the little snipe and still gave you your answer, but you decided to pester further implying you didn't have time for slack and needed another answer. Now either that was a really stupid question (He explained how he did it, why would he know other ways of doing it?) or you were just looking to press the issue. This kinda stuff has to stop.

We turn a great thing sour for no perticular reason other to try and level our importance with people who put serious work into the lore for CCP. You wanna talk about dissapointment? The fact that that thread needed to be closed because of a few sour grapes is the disappointment.

I'm just really disappointed by the answers, that are not really in the spirit I was... expecting.

If you don't want an echo chamber (which you seem to be implying.) Don't scold people like petulant children with lines like this when you don't get the answer you were expecting.

I mean, please do not take it as an offense or anything.

And then don't backpedal behind a boilerplate "No Offence" and not expect people to still be offended.

Seriously guys, this stuff has to stop somewhere.

[Katrina Oniseki]

C...Katacombed

Weeeeeeeeeee!

..............\o\

[Lyn Farel]

Lyn, there is a difference between criticism and pissing on people's enthusiasm. I have felt, personally, the latter on more than one occasion. I have seen it happen to other people.

People are excited about the Drifters. It's generating discussion and conjecture. That's good. To have people step in and proclaim that they're just another failure by CCP and will become just more farmable content is stifling and off putting. To watch people's work and initiative getting recognition resulting in accusations of favoritism and being used as an excuse to dredge up the darker moments of the game we love is off-putting and makes me want to go elsewhere.

Complaining about what CCP has done in the past is pointless; it's done and gone. Griping here about what CCP is doing now isn't going to do much; I don't believe they're involved here. You're probably better off going to the channels where they are, but be prepared for the large number of people who will likely disagree with you.

Once again, there's an important difference between "Drifters are just more pointless farmable content" and "I'm worried that Drifters will fade into another form of farmable content." One of them invites discussion.

And regarding Rule 11, rules like that have to be malleable in order to prevent rules lawyering. Very explicit, concretely defined rules are much easier to argue loopholes in. The wording makes the mods' job (which shouldn't be a job) easier to enforce. It just depends on a trust in the mods. Which is kinda fundamental in participating in a moderated community. Which, to make abundantly clear, I have, and is part of the reason I haven't left yet.

Well... I am probably not always at the right place at the right time I suppose... I have not really heard, read or seen anyone complaining about favoritism, jealousy issues, etc... I mean, recently. Before that, probably, but I don't remember very well then... I don't think it really happened a lot on backstage ? Maybe there is a conflation between what is said on channels ingame and here ?

And well, for rules, I have always held the opposite mindset. I don't like common law, and I believe that rule lawyering actually happens when rules are not clear enough, like this one. Clear rules like the ones on verbal abuse, etc, are perfectly clear and I have yet to see them "lawyered"... I also never really... made any mysteries that my trust in the moderation here has been a little dented.... I mean, I support the mod! It's just that there is... history, and disagreement.