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[Seriphyn]

Decided to break the topic off my own initiative from that leathery thread of D/s stuff

The Internet has its own culture, and that includes morality too. Gender and sexuality are universals (bar those niche websites, equivalent to "That Racist Guy who Lives on the Corner"), meaning that homosexuality is seen as perfectly acceptable, and women should be equal to men. Before I start, let me just clear up that those are my views too.

Anyway, it's easy to champion our Western, libertarian views behind a monitor, but when faced with the dilemma of it being challenged in real life, I really doubt many of us will be able to pull through, otherwise we'd probably be the equivalent of Westboro Baptist Church. This includes myself. As I mentioned, I spent 3 months in rural Rajasthan living and working in this small village near Ajmer. In this specific instance, I was teaching English to the children, regarding "I love/like/dislike/hate". Once the class was finished, a kid came up to me and wanted to show off his English prowess, by saying "I love God". Now, as a [not-so-successful] adherent to the Christian faith, at the time I was attending a quite evangelical church (well, not at the time as I was abroad) that gave you the usual of saying how this faith is the only one blah blah. But when a Hindu kid comes up to me and says "I love God", what the hell am I supposed to say to that? "Er, no, sorry, it's the wrong god"? I shall remember that moment in my life for a long time, as it taught me a lot about how our views, no matter how much we believe in them, will sometimes struggle in a completely alien culture. It was also a valuable lesson in putting your money where your mouth is. How many of us actually have the balls to go to a place like Iran and tell them that they treat women appallingly? (in fact, from what I have studied at university, the first response from the women activists there will be telling us to get out, and that it's their job to liberate themselves within their own culture, free from Western influence)

In any case, the original topic was regarding something about the "exploitation of women" and building on what Casiella has said in response to Natalcya, specifically the veil from the Muslim world. While the veil might be seen as some as the exploitation of women and controlling her by the patriachal society, who said the West is free of that? Girls having to wear miniskirts and not wear anything at all on their legs is pretty much the same thing. Our society expects them to look beautiful and sexy as dictated by the media and fashion, the same way their society demands them to wear a veil and cover themselves up. The woman in the West who dresses away from whatever the mainstream fashion culture says is the equivalent of the Eastern woman who refuses to wear the veil. Both will recieve ridicule in some form of another, albeit to varying degrees of course. Even counter-cultures and "against the mainstream" end up being their own equally fascist subculture. I personally felt during growing up, that by adhering to any of these groups is problematic, as "trying to be different" suffers the same problem as those "who are the same". Not to mention, actively identifying with groups encourages labelling, just feeding the problem. I grew up satisfied I never bent down and took it from any group, and I just wear whatever I feel damned comfortable in. "Goddamnit, cut that long hair, you got a thin face, you'd look great with short hair...and you don't need to dress in black to listen to metal!" (I myself am a metalhead that dresses more like indie...though I don't listen to indie).

Thirdly, multiculturalism. I'm sure many of you have seen a picture of me here. I'm actually half-white, but I am not identifiably mixed race. My borough in London is Newham, and at 2005 estimate, only 33% of the population is white. Despite my dark skin colour, my mindset is more "white" than anything else. I date white girls specifically because dating someone of my own [half-]descent comes with its own set of cultural variables that I really don't want to deal with (RL eg. "Here, let me help you with taking that huge, heavy box to your car, Narmeen" "No, sorry, my mum doesn't like me being seen with boys"). Despite the fact my local high street is full of people who share my skin colour, I am beginning to feel progressively more alien as none of them speak a lick of English, as they don't need to since the people that came before them speak their language.  I concern myself with the fact that I might be getting more and more in line with BNP lines of thought. I am outright frustrated over the current demographic, and offended that someone of my own skin colour who lives here can't speak English.

Is it right to be so infuriated over this? It's why being in Aberdeen is much better for me, as I feel I can breath. It has a diversity in a much more healthy fashion, and it really excites me as I meet people from all over the world that I can relate to. However, in my home area, the "ghettoization" upsets me a lot. I don't feel like I'm in the UK there, and I feel just as uncomfortable as if I was thrown knee-deep into Old Delhi or an equally alien culture...it fuels what I am seeing as an "inner racism", and I am beginning to understand how a "hate culture" develops in society...mostly through frustration and helplessness.

Bit of a ramble this, but I'm a very open-minded sort of person...hopefully not spineless that won't change his views on a whim. But I know many of you are highly educated folk with twice to triple my life experience, so I'm very interested to see what you can share 

[Natalcya Katla]

Ah, a separate thread. I'll move the post I just made on the other one here instead, then.

Funny enough, my Muslim friends consider the miniskirt a symbol of systematic gender oppression.

If a woman is expected by her community to wear a miniskirt, then yes, it does become a symbol of systematic gender oppression.

In fact, I personally consider just about any garment which is only socially acceptable for one gender to wear to be suspect. This includes such garments as dresses. As long as nobody's actually being pressured to wear them, though, I can't honestly call them oppressive.

Garments which completely hide the face of the wearer are deeply problematic for completely different reasons as well, but that's another discussion, really.

Also, I call shenanigans on the term "cultural racism". Behavior which is morally/ethically unacceptable to me does not become any more acceptable by virtue of happening in the context of a different culture. That's what it means to have actual moral standards. Homophobia, racism, theft, violence, etc, do not become acceptable behavior in my eyes just because a person - or an entire cultural group - was raised to behave or believe that way.

I can tolerate a whole lot of different cultural behavior than my own, as long as I perceive it to be more or less morally neutral or benevolent. But wrong is still wrong.

This does not of course mean that I can make any firm claims to my own moral/ethical values being the objective "truth". I'm not a religious person, and I recognize that my moral/ethical standards are subjective. That's fine, though - they don't need to be objectively true.

But in order to not be hypocritical, they do need to be absolute. And there's a real difference there.

[Casiella]

@Seri: The US has struggled with this debate about immigration, integration, and language for something approaching two centuries now. Our current rhetoric differs very little from the problems when the Irish, Italians, Chinese, and other groups entered the US in large numbers. One thing that has remained fairly constant is that, while the individuals entering my country do not always learn English, their children do, to the degree that the next generation frequently does not speak their grandparent's mother tongue. This is true in my household as well, as my wife and her immediate family immigrated here about fifteen years ago. You live on a fascinating interface between two worlds, and while I wouldn't presume to tell you who you should want to date, I would note that you actually seem to do a good job finding your own place and answers.

@Natalcya: My sole point was that things are not always so black and white. FWIW, I do not consider the head scarf oppressive any more than I consider wearing the cross oppressive. I'd submit that the educated, thoughtful women in the West who choose to keep wearing it deserve to hold their own opinions on the matter, rather than be told by government and society that they need liberation.

I actually do believe that moral absolutes exist. And I consider the freedoms of belief and expression to be among those moral absolutes, with the usual provisos about doing harm to others.

[Ciarente]

I'm always delighted when a bunch of guys take the time to mansplain the social construction of femininity and the operation of sexism and patriarchy to me.

If you want to know why a woman dresses the way she does, the first question you have to answer is Why do I think I have the right to make someone else's apparel my business?  

As Spivak said, the eternal justification for colonialism has been the chivalrous fantasy of white men saving brown women from brown men.  I'd add, the eternal justification for patriarchy has been the chivalrous fantasy of men saving women from themselves.

It's time to move the battleground somewhere else than women's bodies, boys.  If you care about women's rights at all, you already know there a dozen other pressing problems, from being paid less for the same work, to sky-high maternal mortality rates, to forced pregnancies in some countries and forced abortions in others.

But if you're more interested in what women wear than what they're paid, in how much of their body you can or can't see than in how many years of education they're able to get, stop using feminism as an alibi and join the rest of the lads at the strip  club.

You'll fit right in.

[Seriphyn]

@Casiella, yeah, the whole generational thing I should remember. My maternal family migrated from Sri Lanka in the 60s-70s, and while they all speak English, my generation of many cousins (more like brothers and sisters) are all very "Anglicized". In fact, the most interesting thing about it is that it is very likely my future wife will be white, along with the spouses of a few of my cousins. In fact, already, I technically have two "mixed race" cousins who are both Tamil and Gujarati, although British society just labels them as "Asian". Anyway, as a result, a family that has been for hundreds of years Tamil through and through will be diluted with not only other Indian subcontinental ethnicities, but European ones too.

This applies to my paternal family, who are all American old money types. That side of the family traces back all the way to colonial times, and it's very likely I will be the successor patriach in 50 years...but of dark skin...like with the other side of the family, this bloodline of white descendants of English colonists has been diluted by yours truly.

@Ciarente, I don't think that's a very fair response, especially the tone you have taken with it, considering how good-intentioned I tried to make my original post. I would have thought a mod would have constructed post that would not have chance of potential offence. Even if I am "doing it wrong", at least I take some concern in gender rights, even if I am a man. With that logic, heterosexuals can't champion homosexual rights, can they? But fine, I'll use an example of my time in Rajasthan again.

The gender roles there are very defined. The men work in the local marble mining industry, and the women are all homemakers, with a few who operate the local creches. The boys attend school all the way til 18, but it is unlikely the girls will, as they are needed to help their mothers with housework. In fact, we attempted to form a night school for the girls so they could help their mothers in the day time and study in the evening. Unfortunately, change is a two way process, and lack of community motivation meant the plans fell apart.

The women hardly ever rest. They are always cooking, always fetching water from the handpumps, and always cleaning. One afternoon, I found my host mother sitting eating a bunch of carrots to herself, and even I was like "Wow, what are you doing?" though of course, that was my initial reaction. It was just surprising to see her take a break like that. The thing is, is that you ask these women if they are happy, and they will most likely say yes. The same way I would not DARE call them "poor", as even despite the complete lack of luxury, they are not starving or deprived in any way. Alternatively, you can argue that since they don't know any better, they won't mind anyway. The thing is, is that it seems the feminist movement coinceded with ease of living. The husband/wife unit was no longer the backbone of society. The problem is if you try to impose these Western values on this village, it would break down sociologically and economically. If the women don't cook, the men certainly won't. There is a great balance in their society which is held in place by the strict division of their gender roles.

However, this has not stopped the local NGO that I worked for from pursuing female empowerment, of course. This NGO (http://www.barefootcollege.org/) would undertake many things to, from how I see it right now, enhancing the female's role as a homemaker and housewife. They teach them how to construct these solar heaters, (the dish on the left), in order to make heating water far far easier and without having to invest in a propane tank, to which only the wealthier in the village possessed. Not only would their lives become far easier, but these women would develop serious technical skills from learning how to build them. Moreover, this was the same organization we worked with to establish the night school. It's not about imposing a universal Western value of equality on everything, but rather like how the Iranian female activists do it, looking at the culture by a case-by-case basis from within, and fixing injustices specific to that system.

(Interestingly enough, whenever the married women of that village left their houses, they pulled down their colourful headscarves to obscure their face...these were Malware Hindus, not Muslims)

[Casiella]

Cia has a good point: society has much larger issues we need to address than a woman wearing a head scarf or miniskirt.

On the other hand, I think her point is misapplied here, as Seri's point is much larger than that sole issue, and mine is as well.

We all agree that the issues surrounding cultural values and gender roles are way more complex and nuanced than "yay, girl power!" That's a good message for my daughter when she was a preschooler, I suppose, but already we have much deeper issues to address, like 11 year olds discussing sexual intercourse with her on the bus and why the boys tell her she can't play football and whether she can be good at math like her daddy.

We do have some absolutes, and they're called "human rights". Every human being has the same innate worth and dignity, and while some people transcend even that baseline and become something like saints (in a non-religious sense, transcending all belief systems).

But the fact that I have a Y chromosome doesn't mean I don't care about the range of issues here, if for no other reason than that I have a daughter and a (MUCH) younger sister and I want them to have the life that they want to build for themselves. As Seri notes, this is much like the fact that I care about gay people being treated as humans with core civil rights, despite the fact that I'm a heterosexual man, if for no other reason than that my other sister is a gay woman in a same-sex marriage.

[Natalcya Katla]

@Cia:

I don't claim to be hiding behind feminism. In fact, I hesitate to call myself a feminist at all, since I believe the very term is laden to put the political interests of one sex (albeit the traditionally politically "weaker" one) above the other.

I do, however, believe in gender equality, as closely as it's possible to achieve.

Now, on the one hand, this means I believe in women's rights to have the same job opportunities as men, equal pay for equal work, sovereignty over their own bodies (in regards to abortion, etc), the right to freely choose what to wear (the emphasis being on freely, which is what my skepticism is really about - though with the same caveat about facial covers being problematic), the same opportunities and rights to influence politics in any and every way that men have, the right to expect the man to take equal responsibility in domestic chores, and so on.

On the other hand, it also means I do not recognize women's rights to any special privileges. Amongst other things, I believe that...
- here in Norway, women should be required to do a year of compulsory military or civil service, same as men.
- women should be judged in court just the same way in which men are. No judge or jury should ever judge a criminal more leniently just because that criminal happens to be a woman.
- men should also have the right to dress freely. Man wants to wear a dress - or a hijab, or whatever - more power to him, and kudos.
- the mother should not receive preferential treatment over the father in child custody cases. This is something which really needs to change.
- men should not be automatically expected to play a sole (or primary) breadwinning role in a relationship. In a relationship where the partners earn an equal amount of money and put an equal effort into domestic chores, I believe it's reasonable for either of them to expect the other to share an equal financial burden with them on common expenses, whether these expenses are for necessities of life (such as food or rent) or for social occasions. A man is no less a man for splitting a restaurant bill with his girlfriend, or for taking turns on who pays the bill.
- it is not, never, in the slightest way any more acceptable for a woman to hit or otherwise abuse a man than it is for a man to do the same to a woman. This is another pet peeve of mine. I live in a society where it's utterly socially unacceptable for a man to hit, slap or otherwise rough up his girlfriend/spouse/significant other (a sentiment I wholeheartedly agree with), but where few people will even raise an eyebrow when it's the woman hitting the man in anger. Men are somehow expected to be able to deal with it better. This is so wrong it boggles the mind.

So yeah - that's where I stand, anyhow.

[Lillith Blackheart]

I'm always delighted when a bunch of guys take the time to mansplain the social construction of femininity and the operation of sexism and patriarchy to me.

If you want to know why a woman dresses the way she does, the first question you have to answer is Why do I think I have the right to make someone else's apparel my business?  

As Spivak said, the eternal justification for colonialism has been the chivalrous fantasy of white men saving brown women from brown men.  I'd add, the eternal justification for patriarchy has been the chivalrous fantasy of men saving women from themselves.

I would suggest many use the clothing as a talking point as it is a "first step" in a sense. The point at which one can choose what they wear is the point at which they gain better autonomy. It's not as though people simply ignore the other problems women have around the globe; and by the by in many Western countries that whole "women get paid less than men for the same job" is not so prevalent, it's that you can't just go ahead and win the war immediately. You have to fight battles a step at a time.

That said...

It doesn't take a lot to recognize that these same concepts apply to men as well, just in different aspects. These are not entirely culturally forced - although they are culturally varied. This is, actually, a topic my girlfriend and I discuss fairly commonly.

I have always found it interesting that the focus is always on women. Certainly, women have had it rough over history in cultures that have been primarily patriarchs, but there are as many gender constraints on men as there are on women. They're just different.

[Casiella]

Natalcya, I'm glad to see someone else stand up about the issue of female-to-male physical abuse. This gets very little publicity or discussion, not because it doesn't happen, but because it reaches deep into some societal taboos.

[Seriphyn]

I give example of male discrimination. Childcare and primary education.

I absolutely love young children. I'm a child-at-heart and adore being in their company and being a role model for them. However, as a male, I suffer significant issues due to the Western favourite of running around and screaming that all men that like children or, hell, even smile to them (which I do, wave and smile at random young children) are paedophiles.

Biggest bunch of tripe I've ever heard. I don't know what makes me love children so much, maybe because my parents showed me a lot of love, and I want to carry that on? Who knows...but the ratio of men in childcare and primary education to women is incredibly imbalanced. Boys need male role models. At least that's how I felt. I was a teaching assistant for a term with older primary school kids, and I could see how the male children related to me differently than the female teachers. An issue was raised in this country that because boys are growing up with female primary school teachers, they are associating education with femininity, and thus when they go into secondary school, their motivation to perform well is reduced.

I don't know how accurate it is, but the fact remains. I struggle in getting accepted into the area of childcare and primary education due to my gender, and am forced to deal with confidence and self-esteem issues in the area...which includes even applying for a job in the first place!

[Casiella]

I never considered that issue about education and motivation for boys -- perhaps that's one of the factors leading to the fact that, at least in the US, the population of college students leans significantly to the female side rather than the 50/50 for which one might hope.

However, I have to note that I never get the sort of dirty looks you describe. Other fathers have complained about the same thing, so I know it exists, but for whatever reason I don't get them, including when I'm out by myself and grin and wave to little kids. I'm a sucker for them, too.

This doesn't apply to trying to get a job, though, since my work is decidedly not kid-friendly.

[Kaleigh Doyle]

The inherent flaw in placing judgement on other cultures is that the morality or value system we inflict on others is based on our own culture and accepting it as truth or rightness. It's no surprise other cultures don't meet our standards or expectations.

Western culture certainly has its share of flaws and closet skeletons. I'm pretty sure there's a proverb about glass houses and stones.

[lallara zhuul]

Meh, it's pretty much all about rights and wrongs, them and us mentality, thinking that there is such thing as normal, believing in things that other people believe because you feel it is safe and all that jazz.

All it boils down to is fear and control.

[Zuzanna Alondra]

I shall read the rest later (tldr?) but I know this is part of this chat:

http://www.stumbleupon.com/su/71okE3/vi.sualize.us/view/f9553999d9717312d5da4acefd439062/

My first thoughts: Rage.  Seriously... that just doesn't seem right.

[Zuzanna Alondra]

With that logic, heterosexuals can't champion homosexual rights, can they?

Well I could argue that.  At my college there was a group called the Gay-Straight Alliance.  The problem was there was no straight people in the club - so folks teased about the name... until Brian (Lisa's dad) showed up and started attending meetings.  He and I have always been the "straight ones" and had fun being the ones "different" in the group.  It took a society norm and bent it a bit.  *smirks*

- the mother should not receive preferential treatment over the father in child custody cases. This is something which really needs to change.


- it is not, never, in the slightest way any more acceptable for a woman to hit or otherwise abuse a man than it is for a man to do the same to a woman. This is another pet peeve of mine. I live in a society where it's utterly socially unacceptable for a man to hit, slap or otherwise rough up his girlfriend/spouse/significant other (a sentiment I wholeheartedly agree with), but where few people will even raise an eyebrow when it's the woman hitting the man in anger. Men are somehow expected to be able to deal with it better. This is so wrong it boggles the mind.

As odd as this sounds for someone considering divorce who is very grateful that stereotype means he can't take my girl from me... I still think it's wrong.  I think the parent more responsible and suited to raising the child should have them.  And as twisted as this sounds, unlike the man - the woman could always go get knocked up again more then likely...

Could be argued people should get a license for parenting, but you can't do that... go figure.

Also for the woman hitting men - it actually is more common then men hitting woman due to what she discussed, it's a known proven fact.  But because of stereotypes that the man would be a sissy or deserved it - it goes vastly under reported.  I can recall female friends say, "He was such an ass, I should of slapped him..."  But if a girl tried to be pushy with a guy - the man would be completely in the wrong if he did anything other then politely ask her to stop.

I give example of male discrimination. Childcare and primary education.

I struggle in getting accepted into the area of childcare and primary education due to my gender, and am forced to deal with confidence and self-esteem issues in the area...which includes even applying for a job in the first place!

For anyone reading this and thinking Seri's full of it on this one - he's not.  I worked in childcare for years - never once was there a male teacher.  I brought a male friend to volunteer for a week and the children loved him.  The other teachers made him so uncomfortable he didn't want to apply.    I went to a class in high-school for learning basic childcare for preschools and such - two boys out of 40+ students, and they got teased so bad one of the boys dropped out.  Giant education class with over 300 attendees or so... I think I saw a man the whole time.  In fact the woman started using the men's restroom during the convention because it was empty and not being used at all.

There - turned the tldr into a real post.  Enjoy.