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[Silas Vitalia]

My issue/point of the thread would be that that close connection between the 'background' game world and the players did exist at one point, and people built their experiences around that. 

Then a wall was built up between them. People like you have figured out how to do just fine without it, but plenty of others are feeling a bit miffed dedicating their fictional alter egos to causes or groups that have much to do with a background fiction and factions, that have just been told will no longer have anything to do with them. 

So instead of having one transhumanist Star Fraction pro capsuleer group, CCP are sort of saying 'that's all of you now!'

Well I think the question for me is to the degree to which you consider your own roleplay dependent upon NPC/Dev/CCP actions. However, while my characters are indeed transhuman capsuleers in general and infomorphs in particular that does not mean they are solely defined as such, nor are they defined to me solely on the basis of being, "Pro-something" or "Loyalists" to a certain faction.

Whilst it might be unfortunate that things have/will change to less player-NPC interaction or intersections, that does not change the fact that it does feel like there are two options to me right now. One is to insist upon it and likely become disillusioned and disappointed awaiting the arrival of CCP Godot to deliver it. The second is to decouple personal or organizational RP into your own framework and lessen the expectations of CCP to provide the toys to play in the EVE sandbox as regards RP.

NPC Godot was there though, he hung out for a few years and did stuff, then he was like

"fuck you guys I'm out. Noobs" 


The thread was more a way to comment on the fact that this was now explicitly the ccp lore policy rather than the slow death we had been used to for the last few years.   

[Makoto Priano]

So. Circling back to news, as I don't expect CCP to provide individual interaction via NPCs, or even necessarily frequent events, I do feel that someone taking a bit of time to write up developments -before- the expansion drops would do a lot for getting players jazzed.

For instance, one of Kronos's big story things will be Mordu interventions in lowsec-- not just Mordu ships in belts, but also Mordu ships assaulting ghost sites, which will be the introduction vector for the new low-grade implant sets. They could easily begin the process of introducing this story arc now or, hell, once Fanfest hit and they announced the Mordu ships.

[Arnulf Ogunkoya]

About why I despair on relying on pure player interaction to generate content.

One of my favourite writers is Charlie Stross and he has a blog over at antipope.org. Currently theyare discussing the nature of heroism in this thread.

What caught my eye in relation to this discussion was in comment number 84:

Basically, the acts which are universally considered evil - random murder, torture, raping children - are acts which would lead to nightmare societies if they became widespread.

[And, before anyone mentions the death penalty. that's not random murder.]

Imagine if anyone you met might to kill you on a whim, and all the bystanders wouldn't so much as tut disapprovingly, just step over your cooling corpse and go about their daily business.

There are doubtless some people who'd love to live in such a world, but not many, and most of them would probably soon regret it if they got their wish.

Having a category for such behaviour is useful, even if it's difficult to define.

And yet this nightmare society, where people destroy others on a whim, seems to be a close match for the way a lot of EVE players behave.

[V. Gesakaarin]

NPC Godot was there though, he hung out for a few years and did stuff, then he was like

"fuck you guys I'm out. Noobs" 


The thread was more a way to comment on the fact that this was now explicitly the ccp lore policy rather than the slow death we had been used to for the last few years.   

Well I've never been for one to wallow in nostalgia.

Frankly, about the only thing I would desire from CCP is just regular news articles to make it feel like the New Eden is moving along despite what capsuleers do. Even something like an IC newsfeed akin to Reuters bulletins would be fun where it's just short headlines + one sentence summary. Maybe even provide a "Would you like to know more?" button for them so then CCP writers can gauge which headlines appear to be of interest to people for further elaboration with a full article.

I don't think every news item from CCP has to be related to new story developments or to explain new in-game items. Even fluff pieces and good news stories would probably going some way in providing some depth and connection to the world in lieu of live events and the like.

[Lyn Farel]

Well, a lot of violent areas in the world often also have a bunch of groups with a whole lot of long names and acronyms which is about what nullsec amounts to. However since, you brought up Black Mountain and that's a story then I suppose to me RP for you is writing stories and not the interactions that take place with other players.

No need to jump to conclusions. If that was the case I would never have started to RP ingame to begin with.

I just mentioned the first chronicle that came to mind, followed by the first series of news that came to mind. I could have mentioned a lot of other things lore related as well, either written by CCP staff or RPers.

Not stuff that sound like they have been written by players as players and not characters. The difference is pretty obvious and blatant to my eyes. When I read Veik, I feel like I am dealing with Veik the ruthless caldari executive. Unfortunately, that's not the case when I read most non RPers.

About why I despair on relying on pure player interaction to generate content.

One of my favourite writers is Charlie Stross and he has a blog over at antipope.org. Currently theyare discussing the nature of heroism in this thread.

What caught my eye in relation to this discussion was in comment number 84:

Basically, the acts which are universally considered evil - random murder, torture, raping children - are acts which would lead to nightmare societies if they became widespread.

[And, before anyone mentions the death penalty. that's not random murder.]

Imagine if anyone you met might to kill you on a whim, and all the bystanders wouldn't so much as tut disapprovingly, just step over your cooling corpse and go about their daily business.

There are doubtless some people who'd love to live in such a world, but not many, and most of them would probably soon regret it if they got their wish.

Having a category for such behaviour is useful, even if it's difficult to define.

And yet this nightmare society, where people destroy others on a whim, seems to be a close match for the way a lot of EVE players behave.

That. When I see most non RP pvpers in EvE playing and have to take that into my own RP (since they exist in the universe too after all), I don't have the feeling to evolve with true capsuleers. I have the feeling to evolve with l33t gamers or the average CoD player.

Still explainable ICly, but damn it's depressing.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Exactly, depressing is the right word. Of course I can have RP without a background that is relevant, but I don't need to RP in EVE, then. It's not like EVE is the only place for me to RP (I have several pen & paper groups out there and also know of other MMOGs where I could go RPing) or that it is so astonishing gameplay wise that I want to stay and RP in EVE come what wills PF wise.

Of course I can ignore all the shortcomings of CCP in regards to background/PF and player involvement in allthat, but what really hooked me on EVE was that we players mattered to the PF and that the PF was good. Now after they worked that PF down pretty much in my opinion they also squash any hope for players getting involved in it in the future again.

So, can I RP in EVE? Sure. The question remains, though, if I want to and bejond that: If it is worthwhile to. Nowadays I wouldn't recommend my RPing friends to get involved in RP in EVE. It's just not worth it anymore, imho. Doesn't mean it's a bad game, just that it gets worse and worse for RPing, imho. vOv I dunno what your standards for RP are, Veik, or whether you RP at all outside of EVE, but it's all a question of perspective: It's not just that other pastures seem greener to me, nowadays, I've been to them and I noticed that they really are.

Ofc. now comes the 'If you don't like it, you don't need to do it'. Exactly. I can leave EVE and I will, frankly, if they walk further down the road I feel they're walking right now. Doesn't mean I can't point out how the quality of EVE as an RP environment has degenerated, no?

[Samira Kernher]

Can't say I'd agree with the claim that other pastures are greener. Having participated in MMO RP communities for over a decade, EVE is unique in the ability for players, both RPers and OOCers, to actually influence the universe and its lore. The ability to influence the lore might have diminished over the years, but it's still far more than the rest of MMOs where the capability isn't possible at all and never was.

Now, PnPs or PWs (NWN etc) offer more of that possibility, but that's moving away from MMOs.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Now, when did last players actually influence the Lore of EVE?

[Samira Kernher]

Last year was the most recent example, with things like Korsavius' anti-Provist rally, the Pyre trial thing, Hearth and Home and the other CP relief efforts, and supposedly the current ground situation on Caldari Prime (it's hard to determine how much of it they were planning to do already, and how much was influenced by Caldari players maintaining ground dominance despite the effect of the space battle).

I do consider something as little as having yourself and your actions acknowledged in official IC news articles to be having an influence on lore, and it's something that I can't really think of any other MMO that has allowed. There doesn't need to be actual major impact and change for it to be an influence in my opinion--the simple fact of your actions being recognized in-universe by official sources is something I personally find amazing. In any other MMO, my RP actions have no meaning except to other RPers, and even then it's only other RPers on the same server I'm on. The developers, let alone the official NPC factions, have no clue that I even exist, nor do they care what I or my characters have done in roleplay scenarios in their universe. As far as they are concerned, all these RPers and all their characters are just playing out fanfiction, playing alternate universes, rather than actually being a real, living part of their universe. In EVE, even as little as a year ago there is still, if diminished, a recognition and acknowledgement of roleplay actions on the universe itself. What we do is actually happening in the EVE universe, is actually part of this universe that CCP has made.

That means a lot to me.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Now, I have been on UO servers - private ones, to be fair, but I think that's not disqualifying them at all - where GMs ran a lot of NPC positions. those NPCs acknowledged very well actions of PCs. There were city guards who chased criminal players and there were PCs starting out as nobodies who got knighted for their actions. Players started rebellions against the king and others worked against those, there were intrigue and all those shenanigans and it all really mattered. Then the people organizing all this got children and unfortunately no one wanted/had time to take over. All with around a thousand people. And really, we don't have that many RPers in EVE... at least the last estimates I heared here on the Forums were disagreeing whether  it's 100 or closer to 200. Tbh I don't think we have that many people in EVE giving a dime on whether there's a newsarticle about stuff or not.

I personally don't see how CCP taking in news reports is really equal to people having influence on PF. They simply like to get free news items, imho. That said 'a year ago' is a long time on the internet and for a game, I think. It's over 150€.

[Samira Kernher]

I do think your example being private server disqualifies it. Otherwise I would also consider things like WoW private servers. In such case it's still the RPers inventing their own alternate universe, running their own fanfiction. Only difference from live servers is that, instead of simply emoting and imagining it they are able to actually alter the world directly. In that sense they are closer to PWs on games like NWN. Their actions still have no acknowledgement by the people who actually created the universe, nor are they recognized as part that overall universe's lore and story. In EVE the players are not simply a part of the local "server lore" as is the case of individual RP servers on other MMOs and PWs, but part of the overall universe lore.

And I do think news reports is having an influence on the PF. It doesn't matter if there's no lasting impact. What matters is that the roleplayers did a roleplay thing, and the developers went and said, "Yeah, that thing you did? That happened. Your characters exist in our universe, and they did something." In the case of a news article, not only has it been acknowledged as happening, but it's been immortalized.

Now I'm not going to say that RP in other MMOs isn't worthwhile or anything like that. Because it is and there is certainly a lot to be said for RPing in a game where you don't have to worry about that oversight and can go all out with actually taking direct control of the game world to shape your plots and stories (something you can't do in EVE's RP environment). But for me personally, I've done all that already, I've explored all of that for years. EVE is something different for me, and something I still consider a worthwhile experience for what it offers.

I think, for me, it is that in EVE I feel like I'm actually part of something. In other MMO environments, I feel like I'm creating something. In EVE I'm a cog, small but an acknowledged part of the machine, in another MMO I'm a storyteller taking some static sourcebooks and props and using them to create epic narratives for myself and my friends to enjoy. Both have merits, but for me right now I just want to be a cog, a character whom I can feel is actually a real part of this universe I'm playing in. Maybe in a year or two I'll be back in my storyteller phase and lamenting my inability to effect major change on the story and bounce to a different MMO where I have that capability (I know I've certainly complained about the inability to do that on EVE to people already when feeling burned out). *shrugs* Different strokes. Point is, I do think EVE still offers something different that is still appealing to people who are looking for that experience. It's not a matter of "grass is greener" so much as it is different views from the pateo.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Their actions still have no acknowledgement by the people who actually created the universe, nor are they recognized as part that overall universe's lore and story.

Well, of course their actions were acknowledged by the people who created the universe: It's not that the server was simply an UO jack-off. It was a server where people had developed an independent, unique background. There was staff running the server, people playing NPCs and all that shenanigan. The only thing that really distinguished them was that they weren't taking money for the work they were putting into this (aside from donations to keep the servers running).

So, yes, their actions were acknowledged by the very people who created that universe and it was recognized as the universe's lore and story.

And I do think news reports is having an influence on the PF. It doesn't matter if there's no lasting impact. What matters is that the roleplayers did a roleplay thing, and the developers went and said, "Yeah, that thing you did? That happened. Your characters exist in our universe, and they did something." In the case of a news article, not only has it been acknowledged as happening, but it's been immortalized.

That's a pat on the head and a paternalizing one at that, imho: "Oh how nice, you did a thing! Now, but don't expect that to have any real lasting effect, it could ruin the storyline as we intend it to develop."

I think, for me, it is that in EVE I feel like I'm actually part of something. In other MMO environments, I feel like I'm creating something. In EVE I'm a cog, small but an acknowledged part of the machine, in another MMO I'm a storyteller taking some static sourcebooks and props and using them to create epic narratives for myself and my friends to enjoy. Both have merits, but for me right now I just want to be a cog, a character whom I can feel is actually a real part of this universe I'm playing in. Maybe in a year or two I'll be back in my storyteller phase and lamenting my inability to effect major change on the story and bounce to a different MMO where I have that capability (I know I've certainly complained about the inability to do that on EVE to people already when feeling burned out). *shrugs* Different strokes. Point is, I do think EVE still offers something different that is still appealing to people who are looking for that experience. It's not a matter of "grass is greener" so much as it is different views from the pateo.

Well, of course it's a question of what you're looking for, that's agiven. But in EVE you're a cog in a giant machine whether you do roleplay or not. And the PF does nothing about that, exactly because of the divide between players and lore that becomes more and more pronounced. You can't really play a cog in the Empire's machinery, really. Yes, you can be apart of PIE, get ordered around and such. But that's PIE doing stuff for PIE. It's really players creating stuff for players, just as in any other MMORPG. The news items that involve players? Well, they are really player stuff created for players, just that CCP institutionalized that. Doesn't mean they really do recognize it: In fact they are quite ready to fuck over stuff that people established and that got posted as news items.

It's all for the sake to make one feel to be a part of EVE. It's very cunning, as it is a good tool to raise player retention rates. But there's a difference between feeling to be taking part in something, by getting some superficial recognition, and actually taking part in it, having any real influence.

[/bittervet]

[Dessau]

And yet this nightmare society, where people destroy others on a whim, seems to be a close match for the way a lot of EVE players behave.

The leet/CoD realm of behavior is another one of those reasons why null isn't for me. Even if I was good at PvP, which is at this point a pipe dream, killmails are just absolutley irrelevant to my enjoyment of the game. For these Sov entities, however, they are the primary propaganda tool, and a chief yardstick by which their impact (ego) in New Eden can be measured. Not saying that's wrong, just that it is why I relegate Null developments to the same 'background noise' as much of the officially-penned Empire news items.

In terms of character, to someone raised in Empire whose neighbors are baseliners inseparable from the machinations of earning a living in this troubled and distant future, these genocidal maniacs are a thankfully distant bogeyman. The GalNet analytics technician on a Verge Vendor station who has mouths to feed and a relative with a genetic disease doesn't care who took what system from whom 15 parsecs away. Neither do I.

At least, that's how I deal with that type of player in terms of character. Compartmentalize.

[Utsukushi Shi]

It seems to me that the fact CCP changes anything at all about thier IP, down to the smallest reference in a news story, because of the actions of an extremely small subset of their playerbase is pretty sweet. Imagine what they would change if there were more of us and we were more active in the greater community.

CCP has many faults no doubt, but how much of this can be laid at our feet? Why should they make a game according to our wants when so many others want something different?

[Lyn Farel]

CCP enjoys changing anything about their IP and their canon, retcon after retcon, and actually not making it evolve anymore in relation with players actions ingame/outgame like they did in the past, is what is annoying. It's like if in a tabletop you suddenly started as a GM to change everything about the base canon and the sourcebook on a whim because you are not happy with it, and on the other hand never ever acknowledging what your players do.

I can perfectly understand that they do not have the means nor the will to continue stuff like Arek Jalaan - that was after all mostly a side hobby for a few GMs - for so few RPers. We dealt with a lack of lore events (even news) constantly at various times past TEA, and I was not so much of a live event person anyway. Having experienced what it is to have a game company investing its time into the interaction between players, RPers and their universe, RPers tend to feel self entitled to that kind of thing when it was actually a privilege. But for CCP to continue mingling with PF like they do, is highly irritating. Make the world change and evolve after historical events, yes. Change basic generalities, no. Just no.

On another note though, pastures may be well greener on other mediums like tabletops and some other games, but in terms of MMO, it's pretty void. I have yet to see another (non private, haven't tried any of those) MMO where I can find a lasting, mature and decent RP community like eve one. Mh, maybe TSW or SWG for a handful of micro mature communities, but not that much.