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[Ghost Hunter]

The solution would be to let some of these gameplay things (incursions, FW) actually effect the game world.  That or discontinue those features one way or the other.

I see no reason why CCP couldn't flip a few systems, blow up a few NPC stations, and have faction X do a thing to their enemy that has lasting consequences. 

I'm not talking about The Empress bombing Pator but jesus have some movement on the warfront one way or the other.

Faction stuff doesn't necessarily = live events either, plenty of cool things could be done that don't involve dev loot pinatas, they are just choosing not to spend any intellectual time on this stuff.

One of the core issues with the idea of world shaping NPC power is that it would slam into the player sandbox. It would inevitably cause problems if an entire alliance or warzone suddenly found itself undergoing game mechanic changes because of a world event. Incursions was an approach to the idea, but the most daring effect it has is cyno jamming - nothing to the effect of security level changes, super police responses, or jump gate functionality alteration.

To crunch down an otherwise massive post: EVE has been built for the player sandbox to the exclusion of everything else. I imagine once they finalize the shift toward removing the Empires/Pirate factions, the incursion/FW features will be removed in favor of something more player controlled.

[V. Gesakaarin]

To crunch down an otherwise massive post: EVE has been built for the player sandbox to the exclusion of everything else. I imagine once they finalize the shift toward removing the Empires/Pirate factions, the incursion/FW features will be removed in favor of something more player controlled.

I've always been in favour of having player characters divorced from the majority of what occurs with the NPCs because the crossovers such as with FW/Incursions/Live Events really haven't delivered because true world changing impacts by the NPC world really can't be delivered. I mean a simple concept such as Faction X deploys a battle fleet somewhere - does CCP have hundreds of staff to create that kind of epic scale? They don't, unless they just spawn hundreds of npc ships.

The paradigm of where capsuleers/clone troopers/valkyries exist and operate in their own little world mostly separated from the rest of the cluster seems a more efficient and cleaner option than mixing fiction where you can essentially make up whatever you want and the realities of the game mechanics and design where everything can become messy.

[Ghost Hunter]

To crunch down an otherwise massive post: EVE has been built for the player sandbox to the exclusion of everything else. I imagine once they finalize the shift toward removing the Empires/Pirate factions, the incursion/FW features will be removed in favor of something more player controlled.

I've always been in favour of having player characters divorced from the majority of what occurs with the NPCs because the crossovers such as with FW/Incursions/Live Events really haven't delivered because true world changing impacts by the NPC world really can't be delivered. I mean a simple concept such as Faction X deploys a battle fleet somewhere - does CCP have hundreds of staff to create that kind of epic scale? They don't, unless they just spawn hundreds of npc ships.

The paradigm of where capsuleers/clone troopers/valkyries exist and operate in their own little world mostly separated from the rest of the cluster seems a more efficient and cleaner option than mixing fiction where you can essentially make up whatever you want and the realities of the game mechanics and design where everything can become messy.

The world changing impacts of NPCs can be delivered, but it doesn't make sense to. NPCs are seen as an intrusion and unethical disruption of the player sandbox. They've never been codified into a 'force of nature' that players must compete with in any meaningful sense. Giving them any real credibility would warp the game, if not outright change the dynamics and nature of it. If a willingness to grant them such existed, I don't think we'd need hundreds of CCP staff to monitor or actively control the groups. You can program and stack the deck appropriately.

As to caps/clones/valks, in short phrasing : yes. By divorcing the player from the NPC world they are kept in a bubble, it is extremely clean to work with. No mess of player/npc power dynamics, story evolution, etc. What we usually end up seeing is half the mile in terms of deployment simply because the game can't be changed away from players. Rinse and repeat, looping problem.

Remove the NPCs and it all goes away, basically.

[Silas Vitalia]

I look at it the other way, that NPC-driven content could serve as a catalyst for more player activities.

The current incursion system shows how static and repeatable NPC content just turns into a new form of missioning/loot farming.

The trick would be to have the NPC's 'threaten' something the players use, more dynamic than Incursions.  Something like a market-hub Jita-type system.   Scary NPC fleet X is invading this system next week!

Stations will be put on alert, manufacturing will slow down/become more expensive! Repairs will cost more! Oh noes, etc!

But maybe those wily capsuleers will clear out the problem, maybe the industrialists will hire mercs to guard the area? Maybe others will hinder?  Just a thought.

It's like Zorg from 5th Element.  Introduce a little chaos and all this activity starts to happen.

The problem is high sec is static and complacent and people will tear at the slightest change.

[Arnulf Ogunkoya]

<snip>
The paradigm of where capsuleers/clone troopers/valkyries exist and operate in their own little world mostly separated from the rest of the cluster seems a more efficient and cleaner option than mixing fiction where you can essentially make up whatever you want and the realities of the game mechanics and design where everything can become messy.

Congratulations, I think you just made me take a SAN check.

I contemplate the idea of playing EVE with no background to speak of and only other players and their machinations for motivation. And I scream in utter terror and despair.

Players in EVE are a good example of Sturgeon's Law. A lot of them are a waste of good life support.

[Graelyn]

I contemplate the idea of playing EVE with no background to speak of and only other players and their machinations for motivation. And I scream in utter terror and despair.

Better get used to the idea.

Sorry folks, but CCP has been choking out the numbers of RPers and Lore-interested players for half a decade or more. If there were more than a hundred total left I'd be surprised. Everyone else, especially inside CCP, wants exactly what you've described.

This isn't doom and gloom bittervetting, just summarizing years of being on those front lines.

There is a unified vision of what EVE is meant to be, and nullsec fucksticking for eternity is unfortunately the entirety of that vision.

[Silas Vitalia]

There is a unified vision of what EVE is meant to be, and nullsec fucksticking for eternity is unfortunately the entirety of that vision.

Graelyn has officially won the thread, backstage, and all commenting forever. 

Last one out turn off the lights.

[Silas Vitalia]

I have to find the link to the story, but there was something about like 90% of all people who ever subscribe to EVE leave within one or two months?

[V. Gesakaarin]

<snip>
The paradigm of where capsuleers/clone troopers/valkyries exist and operate in their own little world mostly separated from the rest of the cluster seems a more efficient and cleaner option than mixing fiction where you can essentially make up whatever you want and the realities of the game mechanics and design where everything can become messy.

Congratulations, I think you just made me take a SAN check.

I contemplate the idea of playing EVE with no background to speak of and only other players and their machinations for motivation. And I scream in utter terror and despair.

Players in EVE are a good example of Sturgeon's Law. A lot of them are a waste of good life support.

Who knows, maybe some capsuleers also scream in utter terror and despair that the day they got those pod implants was the day they began their nihilistic adventure without the warm and fuzzy feeling one gets from the cultural values they practically left behind.

I suppose it's a matter of perspective and which aspects of the lore and background appeals. Sure, if what you want is to roleplay a human being that's part of a society bigger than themselves or whatever, then yeah it's probably disappointing the direction EVE appears to be headed. Personally, I have no issues exploring my character as capsuleer infomorph where the background fiction is just that, the background of who they were but not who they are now depending on what they do in-game.

It's just a space adventure for me at the end of the day, that I play with others roleplayer or not. That and the thematic element of trying to explore a capsuleer as a capsuleer that struggles to make sense of the world they now inhabit, the life they lead, and find their own meaning and value in an existence that can be cruel, harsh, indifferent, and uncompromising, has been a rewarding experience.

So I guess just for myself, I don't really have the need or expectation for CCP to provide the content and interactions because other players already do that for me on different levels

[Silas Vitalia]

<snip>
The paradigm of where capsuleers/clone troopers/valkyries exist and operate in their own little world mostly separated from the rest of the cluster seems a more efficient and cleaner option than mixing fiction where you can essentially make up whatever you want and the realities of the game mechanics and design where everything can become messy.

Congratulations, I think you just made me take a SAN check.

I contemplate the idea of playing EVE with no background to speak of and only other players and their machinations for motivation. And I scream in utter terror and despair.

Players in EVE are a good example of Sturgeon's Law. A lot of them are a waste of good life support.

Who knows, maybe some capsuleers also scream in utter terror and despair that the day they got those pod implants was the day they began their nihilistic adventure without the warm and fuzzy feeling one gets from the cultural values they practically left behind.

I suppose it's a matter of perspective and which aspects of the lore and background appeals. Sure, if what you want is to roleplay a human being that's part of a society bigger than themselves or whatever, then yeah it's probably disappointing the direction EVE appears to be headed. Personally, I have no issues exploring my character as capsuleer infomorph where the background fiction is just that, the background of who they were but not who they are now depending on what they do in-game.

It's just a space adventure for me at the end of the day, that I play with others roleplayer or not. That and the thematic element of trying to explore a capsuleer as a capsuleer that struggles to make sense of the world they now inhabit, the life they lead, and find their own meaning and value in an existence that can be cruel, harsh, indifferent, and uncompromising, has been a rewarding experience.

So I guess just for myself, I don't really have the need or expectation for CCP to provide the content and interactions because other players already do that for me on different levels

I think that's admirable, but to echo Graelyn, it doesn't hurt when the people crafting the world we inhabit feel like partners and not enemies hurdles and obstacles to get around/through. 

[Nicoletta Mithra]

The thing is, EVE supposedly gives you all options. But if 'all options' are reduced to 'once you're a capsuleer, you can't have any ties whatsoever to your prior life and the society you lived in and you do better anyway to leave all values behind', then that's not a lot of  'all options' in my book.

So, at the end of the day CCP wants you to play their game like they want it to be played. And that different from what they preach: That they want to provide a game you can play like you want to.

[V. Gesakaarin]

I think that's admirable, but to echo Graelyn, it doesn't hurt when the people crafting the world we inhabit feel like partners and not enemies hurdles and obstacles to get around/through.

I probably said this months ago, and it was due to my own experiences during the whole Heth Downfall saga when I began playing Veik as a Provist: the best means to reduce frustration in my personal roleplay was not to place any expectations or demands on CCP to provide meaningful IC content.

End of the day, my roleplay is with other players, not with the NPC and players provide better content for me because their behaviour and actions aren't defined by an AI.

The thing is, EVE supposedly gives you all options. But if 'all options' are reduced to 'once you're a capsuleer, you can't have any ties whatsoever to your prior life and the society you lived in and you do better anyway to leave all values behind', then that's not a lot of  'all options' in my book.

So, at the end of the day CCP wants you to play their game like they want it to be played. And that different from what they preach: That they want to provide a game you can play like you want to.

No, Eve doesn't give me all the options. I can't do independent research. I can't crash entire economies with all my space cash. I can't ram a supercapital into a station. I can't do a lot of things in EVE I'd like to.

As for a requirement for factional loyalties for people's characters, I certainly don't see anything wrong with that because everything is a matter of perspective and what people do with their chars isn't all too much my own concern. I mean there's all sorts of ways to frame being a loyalist or whatever if people want to in their own RP.

I've just found approaching EVE RP as a capsuleer from the angle of some kind of Faustian morality tale where a character makes a devil's bargain to go independent then going from there far less of a hassle than being disappointed expecting some kind of reciprocity from CCP or special dispensations just because I say I'm a roleplayer.

[Silas Vitalia]

No, Eve doesn't give me all the options. I can't do independent research. I can't crash entire economies with all my space cash. I can't ram a supercapital into a station. I can't do a lot of things in EVE I'd like to.

As for a requirement for factional loyalties for people's characters, I certainly don't see anything wrong with that because everything is a matter of perspective and what people do with their chars isn't all too much my own concern. I mean there's all sorts of ways to frame being a loyalist or whatever if people want to in their own RP.

I've just found approaching EVE RP as a capsuleer from the angle of some kind of Faustian morality tale where a character makes a devil's bargain to go independent then going from there far less of a hassle than being disappointed expecting some kind of reciprocity from CCP or special dispensations just because I say I'm a roleplayer.

I'd agree with you except that for 'back in the day' it was a different story. 

There was a fabled time when the dungeon masters wanted us to participate in their story, made content for us, interacted with us, and made most of their content faction and lore oriented. Countless events and arcs for faction loyal capsuleers (and others). Countless little and big plots and arcs.

So the new direction of hands off is on purpose, but I know how different it can be, with any effort by them.

It's not rose-tinted glasses, it really was better.

[V. Gesakaarin]

I'd agree with you except that for 'back in the day' it was a different story. 

There was a fabled time when the dungeon masters wanted us to participate in their story, made content for us, interacted with us, and made most of their content faction and lore oriented. Countless events and arcs for faction loyal capsuleers (and others). Countless little and big plots and arcs.

So the new direction of hands off is on purpose, but I know how different it can be, with any effort by them.

It's not rose-tinted glasses, it really was better.

Well I started RP in Eve around 06/07 and sure I had some fun with the Fed Rise arcs and Intaki related shenanigans but honestly I think I just got used to the period of practically non-NPC/Dev/CCP interactions in my RP from about 08 onwards with FW. I just adjusted to not needing them in my lore/RP/IC interactions anymore to the point that while even some of the "yellow text" chats and involvement from last year were also fun they really weren't something I felt I needed.

I mean even when I think of the LE from last year like Caldari Prime, what was fun for me wasn't the NPC chars talking in local but rather all the players that I got to shoot at. Sometimes I get the feeling that a lot of other rp'ers want to have a feeling that they can have an impact, or make a difference on what happens with the factions. For myself however, I don't really have much issue if the factions move independently of what we as player-characters do because they're already societies and organizations of billions to trillions of people to me.

I fail to see what isn't immersive about CCP deciding to head down the path of, "The people of New Eden will carry on doing what they do irrespective of what you as a player or character may think, say, or do."

[Silas Vitalia]

I fail to see what isn't immersive about CCP deciding to head down the path of, "The people of New Eden will carry on doing what they do irrespective of what you as a player or character may think, say, or do."

But all the trailers say they are all scared of us and how super scary we are! quaking in their boots! 

It's always been a problematic dissonance with the PF.  All powerful demigods or puny CONCORD puppets.

Would almost prefer an 'Factions gang up on all capsuleers' and banish us ala Sansha storyline - banished to whatever on other side of new stargates.