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[Alain Colcer]

I agree with Esna....for in fact the Dusties had the same vulnerability, they needed a war-barge or command center to re-awaken, it cannot be any normal space-based clone store anywhere...

With valks, i assume the same applies, you awaken in the carrier from where you departed......

So all in all....you were inmortal, but bound to the location where your clone replacement activated..... out of that cycle and you are just regular meat.

[Morwen Lagann]

Like some others I probably won't make use of this at all with any of my current characters. Of all of those only Morwen would have any use for it, and that's because she had originally gone to FNA to become a fighter pilot in the first place - she only started on the capsuleer program because she happened to qualify for it.

The one or two Valkyrie character ideas I have already wouldn't likely make use of it either but who knows? vOv

[PracticalTechnicality]

i will definitely be making maximum use of this as it takes my interest in the universe of EVE from a one character perspective even further.

I can only really address one part of Esna's post, the part dealing with 'why diplomacy when you can rambo?'.  Equivalence of power/longevity and durability tends to make rambo mode fun, but a non-viable long term strategy.  Even the massive null blocs that exemplify the attitude of 'hit it until it stops moving' have to bow to the pressures of diplomacy after a certain point, when for all of their power and equivalent, or near equivalent force comes into the equation. 

On an individual level we can only really financially and temporally inconvenience one another.  So rambo tactics might satisfy extremely short term goals, but even in RP, it isn't going to be a strategy that really leads to anything besides getting marginalised and ignored. 

As for the rest of your post, valid concerns that I do not share personally, but valid none the less.  I will keep a beady eye on their progression to see if those concerns start to enter the frame for me, as we get closer to this eventuality. 

[Desiderya]

Since soft cloning has always been a thing the 'risk' as a capsuleer is not necessarily smaller or bigger. Since your abilities are tied to your current clone - not one size fits all - you can still get cought with your pants down.
The concerns are indeed valid, though I think it's going to be more a practical (ie: Mary Sue powerplay galore) than a lore/believability issue.

[Ibrahim Tash-Murkon]

Another reason not to Rambo is that this technology might make you immortal but you're still stuck in your body. There's no right click+self destruct option like in a capsule (of which I am aware). You could be physically captured and held indefinitely. Even if you had some suicide option any part of catching you would likely involve a period of sudden incapacitation which five the opportunity for a quick scan and removal of any hollow suicide teeth or whatnot.

[Lyn Farel]

What prevents you to fork all over the place ? Create copies of yourself ? CONCORD ?

But CONCORD becomes a sudden and cosmic joke since capsuleers are getting INDEPENDENT apparently...

With such a pervasive cloning tech, it doesn't matter if capsuleers still have bodies or not. Kill the body and he will just jumps to another one somewhere.

Not that it is so different to what is already done unofficially through soft clones anyway. Soft clones make capsuleers literally immortal already.

[Samira Kernher]

Yeah, I can't see how anyone who already uses the soft clone concept would be bothered by this.

[Desiderya]

"Unofficial soft cloning": https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2446363#post2446363

Additionally Heth not having access to cloning tech was a plot device (and we're not talking capsule cloning there) in a couple of chronicles (even post-TonyG).

Regarding immortality - cheating death is more like it. We don't know what the price of the cloning tech is - jovian's paid theirs, too, and we got the hydrostatic capsule from them.

[V. Gesakaarin]

People may disagree with me on this, but rather than help characterize the EVE universe I think this actually homogenizes it. We are no longer unique as powerful-yet-vulnerable starship captains, and I see that as a loss.

I think my disagreements differ in the fact that I suspect CCP is going to introduce aspects that won't be reconciled. A situation in which a significant portion of humanity is effectively immortal will introduce all sorts of significant social issues that probably won't be explored or reconciled.

For example, if the Fed, State, and Republic permit Dust/Valk technology to be used by their citizenry but the Empire does not due to religious reasons because hey, getting cloned means you're effectively dead and soulless right? The Empire then ends up either on the poor end of technological parity or it has to create a new orthodoxy to reconcile its religion with the new technology or face the reality that in any war of the future its enemies can just rapidly reclone their losses. Then there's the fact of how can you enslave or reclaim people who can just simply pop a cyanide pill and wake up back home anyway?

Then there's the fighting of wars themselves in a situation where people other than capsuleers can reclone upon death: does it make it wars more likely or less likely? An argument can be made that in wars where no one really dies, why not fight them? They might even become seen as acceptable, humane even. Nice, clean, conflicts where no one dies and the only thing gained is access to resources.

Of course, the setting of Eve has always seemed particularly nihilistic, and the new clone tech will probably only make it more so.

[Rhiannon]

Remember only about .1% of the playerbase gives a shit about any of this.

We are the .1%.


...Doesn't have the same ring to it.

[Rhiannon]

People may disagree with me on this, but rather than help characterize the EVE universe I think this actually homogenizes it. We are no longer unique as powerful-yet-vulnerable starship captains, and I see that as a loss.

I think my disagreements differ in the fact that I suspect CCP is going to introduce aspects that won't be reconciled. A situation in which a significant portion of humanity is effectively immortal will introduce all sorts of significant social issues that probably won't be explored or reconciled.

For example, if the Fed, State, and Republic permit Dust/Valk technology to be used by their citizenry but the Empire does not due to religious reasons because hey, getting cloned means you're effectively dead and soulless right? The Empire then ends up either on the poor end of technological parity or it has to create a new orthodoxy to reconcile its religion with the new technology or face the reality that in any war of the future its enemies can just rapidly reclone their losses. Then there's the fact of how can you enslave or reclaim people who can just simply pop a cyanide pill and wake up back home anyway?

Then there's the fighting of wars themselves in a situation where people other than capsuleers can reclone upon death: does it make it wars more likely or less likely? An argument can be made that in wars where no one really dies, why not fight them? They might even become seen as acceptable, humane even. Nice, clean, conflicts where no one dies and the only thing gained is access to resources.

Of course, the setting of Eve has always seemed particularly nihilistic, and the new clone tech will probably only make it more so.

Because I am pedantic,  I'm going to clear up a few things.

The Sacred Flesh Doctrine only really applies to the Imperial Monarch and the Heirs, so that they can't circumvent the required ritual suicide when they lose the Succession Trials.

I don't think the Empire really cares about trying to Reclaim Empyreans. They are a very small minority  and are way too much of a hassle. Why bother catching dolphins when the Tuna are so much easier? (Maybe that's a bad example?)

[Samira Kernher]

No, the Sacred Flesh doctrine is only religious law for the monarch and heirs. The ideals of it are still a spiritual consideration for those beneath them, often voluntarily adhered to by clergy and nobility, and so it colors the view of cloning in Amarr society.

[V. Gesakaarin]

Because I am pedantic,  I'm going to clear up a few things.

The Sacred Flesh Doctrine only really applies to the Imperial Monarch and the Heirs, so that they can't circumvent the required ritual suicide when they lose the Succession Trials.

I don't think the Empire really cares about trying to Reclaim Empyreans. They are a very small minority  and are way too much of a hassle. Why bother catching dolphins when the Tuna are so much easier? (Maybe that's a bad example?)

The development of the Valkyrie/Ran implants by the Gurista seems to imply to me that the technology and underlying principles of their particular process of consciousness is understood to the extent that it has been actively developed and iterated upon. The end-state of such a process to me is that eventually, consciousness-transfer implant technology will become more and more available to wider segments of humanity as its technology is further developed and iterated upon.

So my thoughts were really just trying to consider what those consequences might be in a situation where death no longer becomes an actual consequence but a choice. Because those Dust/Valkyrie implants have never had those some barriers to entry in their use the same way capsuleer implants do.

[PracticalTechnicality]

What prevents you to fork all over the place ? Create copies of yourself ? CONCORD ?

But CONCORD becomes a sudden and cosmic joke since capsuleers are getting INDEPENDENT apparently...

With such a pervasive cloning tech, it doesn't matter if capsuleers still have bodies or not. Kill the body and he will just jumps to another one somewhere.

Not that it is so different to what is already done unofficially through soft clones anyway. Soft clones make capsuleers literally immortal already.

Personally I would be extremely worried about 'continuity of consciousness' from the point of origin if this were possible.  Quite simply, a collection of personalities all with a common point of genesis may drift and diverge from an original goal in differing environmental factors.  In effect,  I am setting up a Darwinian situation against myself in an undetermined length of time, when 'the real Spartacus' decides that they want to call the shots. 

Short term, replicant style clones ala Blade Runner may solve the problem by not giving enough time for this divergence to emerge, but then you are effectively abusing your own psyche through proxy, a rather macabre concept. 

It is my opinion that the cloning industry, even if owned by capsuleers and their post-capsuleer implant iterations, will be self regulating, as the insanity that would ensue from having multiple copies of a single instance outweighs any long term effectiveness.  Security protocols, strategic analysis and the ability to regulate any key element of society that immortals have any part in starts to breakdown in the presence of questionable identity or identity co-location. 

As being able to identify and locate individuals is the premise of almost any security protocol (as 'protection' is only a promise of time until critical failure - giving the authorities the opportunity to find attackers of such systems before said point) it is in the interests of capsuleer society to maintain the one-running-instance law, in the interests of maintaining the very basis upon which their immortality is predicated. 

As for switching between clones, with a suitable set of cybernetic drivers, clone specific firmware and buffers to ensure the psyche transfers intact, there is next to no reason why our minds shouldn't be able to shift between clones with any more difficult that putting on any other complex piece of gear that allows specific professional activity.  Discomfort, maybe a bit of time and likely with reduced or removed faculties in the their tow domains of operation while in said clone, but at this point our bodies become just another embellishment and/or tool to ply our trade with. 

TL;DR: This is merely an iteration on existing fictional technology that allows the transition between highly specialised roles for an individual consciousness.  It is a personal choice if you partake or not, if it even ever happens, and one others should respect either way,  in my opinion.  It is also in the interests of social integrity among immortals that the 'single instance' law be maintained.  Reasons are non tl;dr, read above . 

[Lyn Farel]

"Unofficial soft cloning": https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2446363#post2446363

Well yes, until very recently I mean. RPers have included soft cloning in their RP for years now, and we were still discussing the contradictory stances and the vagueness of CCP on the matter not even a month ago.

Regarding immortality - cheating death is more like it. We don't know what the price of the cloning tech is - jovian's paid theirs, too, and we got the hydrostatic capsule from them.

Nothing says that the Jovian disease has anything to do with the hydrostatic capsule. That's a huge assumption to make.

What prevents you to fork all over the place ? Create copies of yourself ? CONCORD ?

But CONCORD becomes a sudden and cosmic joke since capsuleers are getting INDEPENDENT apparently...

With such a pervasive cloning tech, it doesn't matter if capsuleers still have bodies or not. Kill the body and he will just jumps to another one somewhere.

Not that it is so different to what is already done unofficially through soft clones anyway. Soft clones make capsuleers literally immortal already.

Personally I would be extremely worried about 'continuity of consciousness' from the point of origin if this were possible.  Quite simply, a collection of personalities all with a common point of genesis may drift and diverge from an original goal in differing environmental factors.  In effect,  I am setting up a Darwinian situation against myself in an undetermined length of time, when 'the real Spartacus' decides that they want to call the shots. 

Short term, replicant style clones ala Blade Runner may solve the problem by not giving enough time for this divergence to emerge, but then you are effectively abusing your own psyche through proxy, a rather macabre concept. 

It is my opinion that the cloning industry, even if owned by capsuleers and their post-capsuleer implant iterations, will be self regulating, as the insanity that would ensue from having multiple copies of a single instance outweighs any long term effectiveness.  Security protocols, strategic analysis and the ability to regulate any key element of society that immortals have any part in starts to breakdown in the presence of questionable identity or identity co-location. 

As being able to identify and locate individuals is the premise of almost any security protocol (as 'protection' is only a promise of time until critical failure - giving the authorities the opportunity to find attackers of such systems before said point) it is in the interests of capsuleer society to maintain the one-running-instance law, in the interests of maintaining the very basis upon which their immortality is predicated. 

As for switching between clones, with a suitable set of cybernetic drivers, clone specific firmware and buffers to ensure the psyche transfers intact, there is next to no reason why our minds shouldn't be able to shift between clones with any more difficult that putting on any other complex piece of gear that allows specific professional activity.  Discomfort, maybe a bit of time and likely with reduced or removed faculties in the their tow domains of operation while in said clone, but at this point our bodies become just another embellishment and/or tool to ply our trade with. 

TL;DR: This is merely an iteration on existing fictional technology that allows the transition between highly specialised roles for an individual consciousness.  It is a personal choice if you partake or not, if it even ever happens, and one others should respect either way,  in my opinion.  It is also in the interests of social integrity among immortals that the 'single instance' law be maintained.  Reasons are non tl;dr, read above . 

Continuity issues, exactly. It has already been the case for years due to soft cloning, so on that matter I don't really see the difference. I have always asserted ICly that there is a huge gap between the capsule standard hard cloning and the concept of soft cloning, for which we don't even know exactly how it's performed (where the hell is stored the infomorph ? directly into the new clone that is kept in stasis ? or stored into a computer like Zainou's CEO ? Does that mean that infomorphs can live digitally ? Or are they in stasis there as well ? It's a huge can of worms).

And yes, that issue is a matter of continuity. Hard cloning means that the brain pattern is scanned and then transferred as it is in the new clone, which means no loss of continuity. For soft clones, it's going back in time, which means resurrecting someone else with a different state of identity while still sharing the same legal identity. It's basically you but also someone else, since you are someone else at t+1 compared to t.

And their new cloning tech exposed here in the trailer doesn't suffer either from discontinuity ! The only source of discontinuity is soft cloning, and I am guessing that it's not CCP acknowledging it but rather Falcon (and so CCP by association), as an old RPer himself that used to use, or live in a soft cloning RP environment. Maybe i'm reading too much into it, but the fact remains : soft cloning is an anomaly compared to the rest of what constitutes cloning in New Eden. It should either be explained and explored, or just not retconed in the way they did.

Also the only reason I see for that law forbidding capsuleers to have multiple instances of themselves running around is the unwillingness to deal with it. One individual = one identity is easier to control rather than several individuals = one identity.  Like soft cloning it has a lot of different interesting outcomes, but it has been put aside for gameplay reasons (no you can't play thousands of you in thousands places in New Eden at the same time).