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[Jace]

Real quick (tenth floor!)

That chronicle is why I figured they weren't so racist anymore.  Idonis obviously wasn't, himself, racist; he was fucking a Starkminar.  I got vibes of Tiberius in I, Claudius there, in particular.  Which is why I'm really pointing at the lore and saying, "Really?  Are they racist?  They seem to be doing what's politically expedient most of the time."  They're just more tied into the church than to the military.

I mean, that in and of itself was almost a century and a half ago.  That was before he issued the Khaedra Law that called for them to be left alone.  That was even before Heideran and the Pax Amarr.  Way before Jamyl Sarum and the emancipation.

This is what I'm talking about with the lore.  This piece of story happened in an Amarr Empire that the lore itself tells us, in the first pages of Amarr lore, came before a massive event that reshaped Amarrian political thinking.  All the modern signs point to the fact that things are changing at an impressive rate.  Is this lore still useful or relevant?  Or is it really a good idea to apply a glimpse into what Yonis's predecessor was thinking before the Minmatar Rebellion had even begun?

That's a lot of assumptions we're making that we don't necessarily have much evidence for.  It looks like he has more political reason, at the very least, to not stick to that racist stance than his father had to do the opposite.

Just a general comment here, this is where you'll get people start balking at playing fast and loose with the PF. Many have an "it is written" attitude about it (myself included) - which doesn't mean your character can't be different, but it does mean he will be interpreted a certain way by others.

[Lyn Farel]

You find that he was progressive with the Mandate ? I wouldn't say that he was harsh or extremely conservative, but what he did never looked really progressive to me. He just put the Mandate - more or less - back together, especially militarily. On the rest, he stripped the Mandate a lot of its autonomy by replacing locals by his own men. Nominating an Ammatar is here just as a puppet. It's certainly not that guy that runs the Mandate. It was already barely the Ammatar that ran the Mandate beforehand, since they were always seconded by an imperial governor.

No, the only thing I saw is Idonis strenghtening his grip on the Mandate, but he didn't do that especially harshly, just well and firmly.

I don't want to get started on whole essays on the deplorable state of the Mandate, but that is probably the faction that has been the most abandoned over the years. Like most minor factions, they tend to be forgotten for long periods of time, but at least they keep their integrity. Which is not the case with the Mandate at all. The Mandate was already half of a joke before TEA, with sheepish citizens and puppet authorities. Which can be interesting... to a point. Now that Ardishapur took over (it could have been anyone really, nothing would have changed), everyone seems to assume that it's all well and good and the Mandate is stronger than ever. As an Ammatar RPer (kindof..) I would argue that it's exactly the contrary, and that the Mandate would have been in a way better shape left alone to figure out on its own how to get back on track. The only thing that Ardishapur brought story wise was to definitely kill any Ammatar spirit left in the faction.

The Ammatar Mandate is extremely interesting to me precisely because it's a HUGE anomaly in the Amarr society. They are not totally part of the Amarr Empire (or at least, were not, like the Khanid Kingdom), but more akin to a protectorate, back in time. They were given a mandate from God by the Amarr Empire to act as a buffer nation between the Empire and the newly formed Minmatar Republic, with all the benediction of the Amarr. In return, they became kindof a vassal/protectorate of the Empire with their own solar systems, as faithful as they demonstrated to be. It is an anomaly precisely because of the status of their slave owners, which is illegal everywhere else, because those are precisely not Holders (who for most of them are True Amarr or Udorian in the case of Tash Murkon, or maybe Khanid now that the Kingdom is kinda back into the Empire). The simple fact that the ex Nefantars started to happily hold slaves during the Amarr conquest and the Minmatar Rebellion, and were allowed to keep them because the Empire could not afford to enforce their rules on Holders in such times, was made purely out of necessity. And it is interesting because it creates a huge precedent. It turned the Mandate into a very privileged semi independent nation of Faithful, even larger than the Khanid Kingdom themselves (though probably with a lot less military power), which were allowed to continue to keep slaves for their Holders-that-are-not-legally-Holders, and which were also given their emancipation very quickly compared to other enslaved races. All in all, they enjoyed a unique status that balanced a bit their rather... stern pictural as meek, spineless individuals, but oh so faithful and all. It also actually provided a lot of political manoeuvers and RP material by putting the emphasis on that specific anomaly.

The arrival of Ardishapur to fix things in the Mandate after the Elder invasion basically killed all of this. Granted, we probably still have Ammatar holders that are not holders, but otherwise while bolstering their military and administration, putting all back in order, it firstly kill the semi independence they had (much like the Khanid), thus removing a lot of the sub factional differences we had so much more before TEA, and also definitely made them actually weaker since all was not done by themselves, but Ardishapur. And all they do is smiling stupidly and meekly while their own government is brutally replaced by Ardishapur puppets and men. All in all, it's a part of the identity of the Ammatar that has already more or less faded away. Well, that can bring interesting material, like the Intaki identity issue has on the federal side, but here it's not just a threat, but a systematic removal from the lore itself, delegating it to the past. So it offers good incentives to start political arguments with Amarr loyalists, but it also at the same time scarifies a lot that actually makes the Ammatar Ammatar. I would love to believe that all of this is just transitional and that cunning Idonis Ardishapur will actually leave after, doing its own version of Khadrea's law in the Mandate by looking nice and compassionate while it's actually a tool for him to protect shameful stuff, but I really don't believe it will.


@ Vic : considering their portrayal in the news, I would still say that they are the most religiously traditional of all Houses. They may probably have changed like all after Vak Atioth, Heideran, and all that, to evolve into a modern Empire, but they probably are the ones that did it the less considering their very religious roots.

Also, I firmly believe that Khadrea's law concerning Vo'shun has nothing at all to do with humanitarian purposes, which is only as a PR tool. Khadrea's law is actually a pure middle finger given to the Minmatar Voluval traditions, showing how horrible it can be. Also considering how he protects them but also does not at all to actually help them or enlight them, or enslave them on Arzad, I would rather be even tempted to say that this guy can be really cruel. Vo'Shun under Khadrea's law reminds me a lot of his personal zoo.

The fact that Ardishapur was not as keen as the Emperor to declare Hamri as heretical is also maybe not out of compassion either to me, but rather because he was an Ardishapur subject that brought a lot of shame on their House. And we all know how many famous heretics the Ardishapur sprouted.

[Vic Van Meter]

Real quick (tenth floor!)

That chronicle is why I figured they weren't so racist anymore.  Idonis obviously wasn't, himself, racist; he was fucking a Starkminar.  I got vibes of Tiberius in I, Claudius there, in particular.  Which is why I'm really pointing at the lore and saying, "Really?  Are they racist?  They seem to be doing what's politically expedient most of the time."  They're just more tied into the church than to the military.

I mean, that in and of itself was almost a century and a half ago.  That was before he issued the Khaedra Law that called for them to be left alone.  That was even before Heideran and the Pax Amarr.  Way before Jamyl Sarum and the emancipation.

This is what I'm talking about with the lore.  This piece of story happened in an Amarr Empire that the lore itself tells us, in the first pages of Amarr lore, came before a massive event that reshaped Amarrian political thinking.  All the modern signs point to the fact that things are changing at an impressive rate.  Is this lore still useful or relevant?  Or is it really a good idea to apply a glimpse into what Yonis's predecessor was thinking before the Minmatar Rebellion had even begun?

That's a lot of assumptions we're making that we don't necessarily have much evidence for.  It looks like he has more political reason, at the very least, to not stick to that racist stance than his father had to do the opposite.

Just a general comment here, this is where you'll get people start balking at playing fast and loose with the PF. Many have an "it is written" attitude about it (myself included) - which doesn't mean your character can't be different, but it does mean he will be interpreted a certain way by others.

I'm just bringing up that it's not really a fast-and-loose thing.  150 years ago, the conservative party that lost the U.S. Presidential election made sure their voting states seceded in order to continue the practice of slavery.  Even if we're going in a generational sense, my father was grounded at home and heckled at school for dating a black girl.  Things change a LOT, and the most basic lore we have says things have changed a lot in the Amarr Empire just in the few years the game has occupied the timeline in.

I'm not saying that stuff didn't happen, I'm saying, what does it actually tell us about what is happening now that might be pertinent to our characters?  It's really hard to say that everything that has ever been written about anything, in this case the Empire, is still true today even if we have a ton of lore that says the Empire has changed a lot over the years, decades, centuries, and millenia.  I saw pretty much the opposite of racism in that story when I read it, Idonis himself wasn't racist per the story as much as he essentially had to play a political role to put down the rebellion.  Which brings me to Lyn...

You find that he was progressive with the Mandate ? I wouldn't say that he was harsh or extremely conservative, but what he did never looked really progressive to me. He just put the Mandate - more or less - back together, especially militarily. On the rest, he stripped the Mandate a lot of its autonomy by replacing locals by his own men. Nominating an Ammatar is here just as a puppet. It's certainly not that guy that runs the Mandate. It was already barely the Ammatar that ran the Mandate beforehand, since they were always seconded by an imperial governor.

No, the only thing I saw is Idonis strenghtening his grip on the Mandate, but he didn't do that especially harshly, just well and firmly.

I don't want to get started on whole essays on the deplorable state of the Mandate, but that is probably the faction that has been the most abandoned over the years. Like most minor factions, they tend to be forgotten for long periods of time, but at least they keep their integrity. Which is not the case with the Mandate at all. The Mandate was already half of a joke before TEA, with sheepish citizens and puppet authorities. Which can be interesting... to a point. Now that Ardishapur took over (it could have been anyone really, nothing would have changed), everyone seems to assume that it's all well and good and the Mandate is stronger than ever. As an Ammatar RPer (kindof..) I would argue that it's exactly the contrary, and that the Mandate would have been in a way better shape left alone to figure out on its own how to get back on track. The only thing that Ardishapur brought story wise was to definitely kill any Ammatar spirit left in the faction.

The Ammatar Mandate is extremely interesting to me precisely because it's a HUGE anomaly in the Amarr society. They are not totally part of the Amarr Empire (or at least, were not, like the Khanid Kingdom), but more akin to a protectorate, back in time. They were given a mandate from God by the Amarr Empire to act as a buffer nation between the Empire and the newly formed Minmatar Republic, with all the benediction of the Amarr. In return, they became kindof a vassal/protectorate of the Empire with their own solar systems, as faithful as they demonstrated to be. It is an anomaly precisely because of the status of their slave owners, which is illegal everywhere else, because those are precisely not Holders (who for most of them are True Amarr or Udorian in the case of Tash Murkon, or maybe Khanid now that the Kingdom is kinda back into the Empire). The simple fact that the ex Nefantars started to happily hold slaves during the Amarr conquest and the Minmatar Rebellion, and were allowed to keep them because the Empire could not afford to enforce their rules on Holders in such times, was made purely out of necessity. And it is interesting because it creates a huge precedent. It turned the Mandate into a very privileged semi independent nation of Faithful, even larger than the Khanid Kingdom themselves (though probably with a lot less military power), which were allowed to continue to keep slaves for their Holders-that-are-not-legally-Holders, and which were also given their emancipation very quickly compared to other enslaved races. All in all, they enjoyed a unique status that balanced a bit their rather... stern pictural as meek, spineless individuals, but oh so faithful and all. It also actually provided a lot of political manoeuvers and RP material by putting the emphasis on that specific anomaly.

The arrival of Ardishapur to fix things in the Mandate after the Elder invasion basically killed all of this. Granted, we probably still have Ammatar holders that are not holders, but otherwise while bolstering their military and administration, putting all back in order, it firstly kill the semi independence they had (much like the Khanid), thus removing a lot of the sub factional differences we had so much more before TEA, and also definitely made them actually weaker since all was not done by themselves, but Ardishapur. And all they do is smiling stupidly and meekly while their own government is brutally replaced by Ardishapur puppets and men. All in all, it's a part of the identity of the Ammatar that has already more or less faded away. Well, that can bring interesting material, like the Intaki identity issue has on the federal side, but here it's not just a threat, but a systematic removal from the lore itself, delegating it to the past. So it offers good incentives to start political arguments with Amarr loyalists, but it also at the same time scarifies a lot that actually makes the Ammatar Ammatar. I would love to believe that all of this is just transitional and that cunning Idonis Ardishapur will actually leave after, doing its own version of Khadrea's law in the Mandate by looking nice and compassionate while it's actually a tool for him to protect shameful stuff, but I really don't believe it will.


@ Vic : considering their portrayal in the news, I would still say that they are the most religiously traditional of all Houses. They may probably have changed like all after Vak Atioth, Heideran, and all that, to evolve into a modern Empire, but they probably are the ones that did it the less considering their very religious roots.

Also, I firmly believe that Khadrea's law concerning Vo'shun has nothing at all to do with humanitarian purposes, which is only as a PR tool. Khadrea's law is actually a pure middle finger given to the Minmatar Voluval traditions, showing how horrible it can be. Also considering how he protects them but also does not at all to actually help them or enlight them, or enslave them on Arzad, I would rather be even tempted to say that this guy can be really cruel. Vo'Shun under Khadrea's law reminds me a lot of his personal zoo.

The fact that Ardishapur was not as keen as the Emperor to declare Hamri as heretical is also maybe not out of compassion either to me, but rather because he was an Ardishapur subject that brought a lot of shame on their House. And we all know how many famous heretics the Ardishapur sprouted.

A few things I've read (and I really hate lorenazying, so take this as conversational rather than dictatorial) just make it sound like the ground rules have changed.  Let's take what you said as given, as a worst case scenario, that this is just a political stunt.  Just from the bare bones, the most solid stuff I can wring out of the lore:

-The Ammatar are ethnic Matari living in the Empire
-The Ammatar were given to the most stridently conservative of the Heirs
-The Heir saw fit to cater as best he could to the Ammatar and give them political power
-We are assuming he is doing this for his political benefit because this helps his house

Then what we can gather is that, worst case scenario, the Ardishapur Family has recognized that the race of Matari, at least those who follow the faith, are a better political asset than they are enemies and would be a wise investment of political capital.  That doesn't strike me as someone who sees them as barbarous heathens who aren't really part of the Amarr Empire, even at worst.  If he'd really believed that, they'd be absolutely worthless and he would have done exactly as expected because he wouldn't have cared what they thought.

Things have changed, particularly since the Elder Invasion in this case.  They're the most religiously traditional, but there were American laws on the books forbidding interracial marriage (and they found passages that they said supported this in the Bible) on the books until the Supreme Court declared them unconstitutional in 1967.  Not 50 years later, you can get thrown off your very popular cooking show for even having been reported to have used a derogatory racial slur.  Now, in the worst case scenario, those people who are racists are hiding it because blacks in America are now seen to have political power and worth, so they should be catered to.

I like to think we're better off than the worst case scenario, personally.  But even at its very worst, that says something about the fact that societies, no matter how traditional, move.

So how does this relate to the stuff on the Mandate?

If you don't think of everything in that scenario, that the reason the Matari have more power now is because they've essentially "proven" themselves by staying with the Empire through the combat and after the Elder Invasion, in spite of the fact that a lot of them were hiding pureblooded Starkminar (essentially hearkening back to their own tribal roots), I'd say that ethnic racism is starting to become a dying fad.  I mean, there's a Udorian heir, the Ammatar have at least earned some political power and respect in the Mandate, the Khanid have their Privy Council seat back despite their temporary secession.  Even the Ni-kunni, who we're supposed to think of with racist aspirations, are called out as probably rising to prominence in the future by Amarr historians.

It's hard, given what I've read, to think that things can just be taken as written about things a hundred years ago, or even from the beginning of the game.  The most relevant lore relates to the most recent developments.

It could be that racism just isn't a political viable option anymore.

[Author's Note]  Again, just my interpretation of what I've read.  I don't grimdark up everything I read, I try to reduce everything down and take it as neutrally as possible.

[Gaven Lok ri]

The worst part about the Ammatar is that from the COSMOS missions, the mandate was *supposed* to be the epicenter of FW. There is this whole set of stories about a military buildup at Kenobanala that is about to go hot.

I get the impression someone decided a proxy war over Ammatar wouldn't be big enough, so they had the elder fleet breeze right through without a problem and made it a war between the principles.

[Samira Kernher]

From what I remember, Hamri was declared heretical by the TC and then ordered Ardishapur to handle it.  At the same time, they've been pretty decent in the Mandate.  I think Yonis appointed an Ammatar to run it.  They also had something called Khaedra's Law which didn't let the Ardishapur kill the rest of the Matari on Starkman Prime.  So I think the family is conservative, but not officially racist from what I've read.

Negative.

"[Idonis Ardishapur's] family and friends would be appalled if they knew of his dark-skinned Starkmanir girl, with her almond eyes and her smile that was coy and bold at the same time." - Khumaak (Chronicle)

Idonis is also described as being "extremely conservative and xenophobic". And that's the guy who both committed genocide on the Starkmanir and passed Khaderia's Law (the same guy did both). You can say many things about the Ardishapur Family, but them not being racist isn't one of them. It's one of the hallmarks of the conservative bloc, which the Ardishapurs are at the head of. There's even very vague hints that they're sexist, at least in the sense of being patriarchal (firstborn sons inherit the family line, something which isn't seen in the other Royal Houses)--though that could have just been poor choice of wording on CCP's part in Yonis' article.

Yonis' moves in the Mandate were out of political savvy more than anything else. Everyone expected him to go the hardliner route. It's what he and the Ardishapur Family are known for, and it's precisely why Jamyl appointed him there. That Yonis didn't shows his intelligence more than his character--he knows a trap when he sees one, and he knows how to exploit it to his benefit. Whether he's actually racist or not isn't known, but it's is certainly not why he was so progressive with the Mandate.

Real quick (tenth floor!)

That chronicle is why I figured they weren't so racist anymore.  Idonis obviously wasn't, himself, racist; he was fucking a Starkminar.  I got vibes of Tiberius in I, Claudius there, in particular.  Which is why I'm really pointing at the lore and saying, "Really?  Are they racist?  They seem to be doing what's politically expedient most of the time."  They're just more tied into the church than to the military.

I mean, that in and of itself was almost a century and a half ago.  That was before he issued the Khaedra Law that called for them to be left alone.  That was even before Heideran and the Pax Amarr.  Way before Jamyl Sarum and the emancipation.

This is what I'm talking about with the lore.  This piece of story happened in an Amarr Empire that the lore itself tells us, in the first pages of Amarr lore, came before a massive event that reshaped Amarrian political thinking.  All the modern signs point to the fact that things are changing at an impressive rate.  Is this lore still useful or relevant?  Or is it really a good idea to apply a glimpse into what Yonis's predecessor was thinking before the Minmatar Rebellion had even begun?

That's a lot of assumptions we're making that we don't necessarily have much evidence for.  It looks like he has more political reason, at the very least, to not stick to that racist stance than his father had to do the opposite.

There is some merit in that, which is why I can see characters having that mindset. However, by no means are the racist ideologies eradicated. By Amarr standards that chronicle is still very recent. Idonis himself was still alive until just 5 years ago. The Empire has had some significant events in the meanwhile, but traditionalists are by their nature slow to change. And lore already states that conservatives are still racists (see writings on the Tash-Murkon family, where it's stated that they still are seen in a bad light by conservatives for being of Udorian ancestry). Likewise, it's stated in the Ardishapur Family entry that while tolerance has gone up in Ardishapur territories, stigmas still remain.

"The area has grown much more tolerable on a social level, as reforms pushed by Yonis have encouraged people of all races and bloodlines to seek religious enlightenment. Many of the old stigmas still exist, however, making the area particularly uncomfortable for foreigners." - Ardishapur Family, EVElopedia


As far as the Mandate goes... personally I prefer what they did with it. But then I'm an Ardishapur fangirl.

That doesn't strike me as someone who sees them as barbarous heathens who aren't really part of the Amarr Empire, even at worst.  If he'd really believed that, they'd be absolutely worthless and he would have done exactly as expected because he wouldn't have cared what they thought.

Racism is not binary. It is not 'perfectly tolerant' and 'barbarous heathens'. The simple act of viewing them as inferior and needing the guidance of the Amarr is racist, and the actions in the Mandate still fit under that overall view. What it doesn't maintain is the strictness of proper Ardishapur territories, where punishment for sins is far harsher.

A better argument comes from Yonis' speaking tours: http://communityclassic.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=3826&tid=4&_ga=1.168374948.423763422.1359927558

But then you get stuff like this:

"Yonis came under some criticism when he appointed an ultra-conservative theologian to the post of chancellor at one of his newly-opening schools. The chancellor, Derek Tanar, believed that only True Amarrians were deserving of leadership in the Empire and that all other bloodlines should remain subservient. He had particularly gathered ire for suggesting the Tash-Murkon Family be expunged from their Royal seat. Yonis distanced himself from Tanar's more controversial views, while declaring him an exemplary choice for administering the school." - Yonis Ardishapur, EVElopedia

So there's evidence supporting both sides, so either is good to play. Society is only in the process of changing, though. The traditional elements are still there.

If you don't think of everything in that scenario, that the reason the Matari have more power now is because they've essentially "proven" themselves by staying with the Empire through the combat and after the Elder Invasion, in spite of the fact that a lot of them were hiding pureblooded Starkminar (essentially hearkening back to their own tribal roots), I'd say that ethnic racism is starting to become a dying fad.  I mean, there's a Udorian heir, the Ammatar have at least earned some political power and respect in the Mandate, the Khanid have their Privy Council seat back despite their temporary secession.  Even the Ni-kunni, who we're supposed to think of with racist aspirations, are called out as probably rising to prominence in the future by Amarr historians.

A few issues with this line of argument. One, while there is an Udorian heir, the Udorians are basically True Amarr now. There are no physical or social differences anymore. They're accepted because by most people's standards they are True Amarr. The radical conservatives are opposed on the merit of that little bit of Udorian blood that is left. That tiny bit of heritage is enough to poison the House in the eyes of radical conservatives.

Secondly, the common misconception that the Khanid Kingdom is a kingdom of Khanid. King Khanid is True Amarr. The Khanid Family are True Amarr. The majority of Holders in the Kingdom are True Amarr. It has a higher percentage of Khanid holders than the Empire, and an equal or possibly greater Khanid:True Amarr ratio among commoners, but it is not a kingdom of the Khanid by the Khanid for the Khanid (unless the Khanid we're talking about here is King Khanid. Who is not Khanid).

Amarr are very, very, very confusing with how they name things. <.<

I'm also pretty sure that allowing Khanid back was a purely political move made to counter Ardishapur's opposition and growing power, and not in recognition of any actual fence-mending. You'll note that, of course, it was Ardishapur who was opposed to the reunion. I'm sure there's both religious and political reasons for that opposition.

For the most part, the wheeling and dealing of the heirs is built around political goals moreso than any representations of their actual beliefs (with the possible exception of Aritcio). Thus it's hard to take any of their public statements at face value. Almost everything we've seen out of Yonis for example is very carefully crafted to poke at Jamyl's authority on a very subtle level. I wouldn't doubt that his pro-tolerance policies are anything more than a method of combating Jamyl's own major political gains among free Minmatar. Jamyl would have gone up in popularity among Minmatar quite a bit with the emancipation. But then you remember that freed slaves have serious issues with poverty and integrating into Amarr society, which would have soured their immediate gains. Then in steps Yonis with schools, hospitals, education reforms, and pro-tolerance policies, and you start buying into him over Jamyl.

Yonis is fucking dangerous. Jamyl doesn't call him the most powerful man in the Empire for nothing. I'm honestly expecting Amarr to be building up to a second Moral Reform.

Really, that's the kind of stuff that makes me like EVE lore.

[Vic Van Meter]

From what I remember, Hamri was declared heretical by the TC and then ordered Ardishapur to handle it.  At the same time, they've been pretty decent in the Mandate.  I think Yonis appointed an Ammatar to run it.  They also had something called Khaedra's Law which didn't let the Ardishapur kill the rest of the Matari on Starkman Prime.  So I think the family is conservative, but not officially racist from what I've read.

Negative.

"[Idonis Ardishapur's] family and friends would be appalled if they knew of his dark-skinned Starkmanir girl, with her almond eyes and her smile that was coy and bold at the same time." - Khumaak (Chronicle)

Idonis is also described as being "extremely conservative and xenophobic". And that's the guy who both committed genocide on the Starkmanir and passed Khaderia's Law (the same guy did both). You can say many things about the Ardishapur Family, but them not being racist isn't one of them. It's one of the hallmarks of the conservative bloc, which the Ardishapurs are at the head of. There's even very vague hints that they're sexist, at least in the sense of being patriarchal (firstborn sons inherit the family line, something which isn't seen in the other Royal Houses)--though that could have just been poor choice of wording on CCP's part in Yonis' article.

Yonis' moves in the Mandate were out of political savvy more than anything else. Everyone expected him to go the hardliner route. It's what he and the Ardishapur Family are known for, and it's precisely why Jamyl appointed him there. That Yonis didn't shows his intelligence more than his character--he knows a trap when he sees one, and he knows how to exploit it to his benefit. Whether he's actually racist or not isn't known, but it's is certainly not why he was so progressive with the Mandate.

Real quick (tenth floor!)

That chronicle is why I figured they weren't so racist anymore.  Idonis obviously wasn't, himself, racist; he was fucking a Starkminar.  I got vibes of Tiberius in I, Claudius there, in particular.  Which is why I'm really pointing at the lore and saying, "Really?  Are they racist?  They seem to be doing what's politically expedient most of the time."  They're just more tied into the church than to the military.

I mean, that in and of itself was almost a century and a half ago.  That was before he issued the Khaedra Law that called for them to be left alone.  That was even before Heideran and the Pax Amarr.  Way before Jamyl Sarum and the emancipation.

This is what I'm talking about with the lore.  This piece of story happened in an Amarr Empire that the lore itself tells us, in the first pages of Amarr lore, came before a massive event that reshaped Amarrian political thinking.  All the modern signs point to the fact that things are changing at an impressive rate.  Is this lore still useful or relevant?  Or is it really a good idea to apply a glimpse into what Yonis's predecessor was thinking before the Minmatar Rebellion had even begun?

That's a lot of assumptions we're making that we don't necessarily have much evidence for.  It looks like he has more political reason, at the very least, to not stick to that racist stance than his father had to do the opposite.

There is some merit in that, which is why I can see characters having that mindset. However, by no means are the racist ideologies eradicated. By Amarr standards that chronicle is still very recent. Idonis himself was still alive until just 5 years ago. The Empire has had some significant events in the meanwhile, but traditionalists are by their nature slow to change. And lore already states that conservatives are still racists (see writings on the Tash-Murkon family, where it's stated that they still are seen in a bad light by conservatives for being of Udorian ancestry). Likewise, it's stated in the Ardishapur Family entry that while tolerance has gone up in Ardishapur territories, stigmas still remain.

"The area has grown much more tolerable on a social level, as reforms pushed by Yonis have encouraged people of all races and bloodlines to seek religious enlightenment. Many of the old stigmas still exist, however, making the area particularly uncomfortable for foreigners." - Ardishapur Family, EVElopedia


As far as the Mandate goes... personally I prefer what they did with it. But then I'm an Ardishapur fangirl.

That doesn't strike me as someone who sees them as barbarous heathens who aren't really part of the Amarr Empire, even at worst.  If he'd really believed that, they'd be absolutely worthless and he would have done exactly as expected because he wouldn't have cared what they thought.

Racism is not binary. It is not 'perfectly tolerant' and 'barbarous heathens'. The simple act of viewing them as inferior and needing the guidance of the Amarr is racist, and the actions in the Mandate still fit under that overall view. What it doesn't maintain is the strictness of proper Ardishapur territories, where punishment for sins is far harsher.

A better argument comes from Yonis' speaking tours: http://communityclassic.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=3826&tid=4&_ga=1.168374948.423763422.1359927558

But then you get stuff like this:

"Yonis came under some criticism when he appointed an ultra-conservative theologian to the post of chancellor at one of his newly-opening schools. The chancellor, Derek Tanar, believed that only True Amarrians were deserving of leadership in the Empire and that all other bloodlines should remain subservient. He had particularly gathered ire for suggesting the Tash-Murkon Family be expunged from their Royal seat. Yonis distanced himself from Tanar's more controversial views, while declaring him an exemplary choice for administering the school." - Yonis Ardishapur, EVElopedia

So there's evidence supporting both sides, so either is good to play. Society is only in the process of changing, though. The traditional elements are still there.

If you don't think of everything in that scenario, that the reason the Matari have more power now is because they've essentially "proven" themselves by staying with the Empire through the combat and after the Elder Invasion, in spite of the fact that a lot of them were hiding pureblooded Starkminar (essentially hearkening back to their own tribal roots), I'd say that ethnic racism is starting to become a dying fad.  I mean, there's a Udorian heir, the Ammatar have at least earned some political power and respect in the Mandate, the Khanid have their Privy Council seat back despite their temporary secession.  Even the Ni-kunni, who we're supposed to think of with racist aspirations, are called out as probably rising to prominence in the future by Amarr historians.

A few errors with this line of argument. One, while there is an Udorian heir, the Udorians are basically True Amarr. There are no physical or social differences anymore. They're accepted because by most people's standards they are basically True Amarr. The radical conservatives are opposed on the merit of that little bit of Udorian blood that is left. Not straight up Udorian as a race, but the trace amounts of Udorian blood in an otherwise True Amarr.

Secondly, the common misconception that the Khanid Kingdom is a kingdom of Khanid. King Khanid is True Amarr. The Khanid Family are True Amarr. The majority of Holders in the Kingdom are True Amarr. It has a higher percentage of Khanid holders than the Empire, and an equal or possibly greater Khanid:True Amarr ratio among commoners, but it is not a kingdom of the Khanid by the Khanid for the Khanid (unless the Khanid we're talking about here is King Khanid. Who is not Khanid).

Amarr are very, very, very confusing with how they name things. <.<

I'm also pretty sure that allowing Khanid back was a purely political move made to counter Ardishapur's opposition and growing power, and not in recognition of any actual fence-mending. You'll note that, of course, it was Ardishapur who was opposed to the reunion. I'm sure there's both religious and political reasons for that opposition.

For the most part, the wheeling and dealing of the heirs is built around political goals moreso than any representations of their actual beliefs (with the possible exception of Aritcio). Thus it's hard to take any of their public statements at face value. Almost everything we've seen out of Yonis for example is very carefully crafted to poke at Jamyl's authority on a very subtle level. I wouldn't doubt that his pro-tolerance policies are anything more than a method of combating Jamyl's own major political gains among free Minmatar. Jamyl would have gone up in popularity among Minmatar quite a bit with the emancipation. But then you remember that freed slaves have serious issues with poverty and integrating into Amarr society, which would have soured their immediate gains. Then in steps Yonis with schools, hospitals, education reforms, and pro-tolerance policies, and you start buying into him over Jamyl.

Yonis is fucking dangerous. Jamyl doesn't call him the most powerful man in the Empire for nothing. I'm honestly expecting Amarr to be building up to a second Moral Reform.

Really, that's the kind of stuff that makes me like EVE lore.

Just one comment comes to mind, I thought the Tash-Murkon family wasn't made up of True Amarr, that they were definitely Udorian.  [url-https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Tash-Murkon_Family]Admittedly, that came from a pretty direct, short stub of a post.[/url]  Maybe I missed it somewhere?  I was really sure Catiz Tash-Murkon is a straight-up Udorian.  I'm not as familiar with Tash-Murkon lore, since it was a lot more interesting to make a missionary in Constantin's vein from the Ardishapur family.

[Samira Kernher]

https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Udorians

"Though originally distinct from the True Amarr, they are now almost physically and socially identical, and impossible to tell apart. Their status is considered nearly equal to the True Amarr by all but the most conservative Amarr elements. One of the royal houses, the Tash-Murkon Family, is of Udorian heritage."

Also

"The social and physical difference between the True Amarr and Udorians disappeared ages ago, although societal traditionalists prefer to remember them." - Amarr Empire, EVElopedia

Essentially, there is no 'straight up Udorian' bloodline anymore. They've basically gone extinct as a race. Though I'm not actually sure if they're still documented as Udorians in paperwork. I thought they were basically written down as True Amarr but with the little taint in their geneaology that conservatives point out, but going through my sources I can't seem to find that. Considering Amarr focus on heritage and ancestry, they might still be documented as Udorians on paper despite being True Amarr in all other capacities, which does make their ascension to royal family more meaningful.

Really, in terms of lore that needs expanding... the Tash-Murkon are a major one. There is so very very little on them.

[Samira Kernher]

Aha, here it was. The Demographics article is where it says that the Udorians are counted as True Amarr, just with Udorian heritage (their description is even rolled into the True Amarr field, rather than having a separate one like everyone else):

"All members of the Amarr royalty are of True Amarr descent, though the Tash-Murkon Family is famously descended from Udorians and are often denigrated by conservatives because of it."

"In the case of the Udorians, over thousands of years, the mingling with the True Amarr ended the ethnicity as a proper separate bloodline."

https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Amarr_Empire

[Vic Van Meter]

https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Udorians

"Though originally distinct from the True Amarr, they are now almost physically and socially identical, and impossible to tell apart. Their status is considered nearly equal to the True Amarr by all but the most conservative Amarr elements."

The point being that there is no 'straight up Udorian' bloodline anymore. They've basically gone extinct as a race. Though I'm not actually sure if they're still documented as Udorians in paperwork. I thought they were basically written down as True Amarr but with the little taint in their geneaology that conservatives point out, but going through my sources I can't seem to find that. Considering Amarr focus on heritage and ancestry, they might still be documented as Udorians on paper despite being True Amarr in all other capacities, which does make their ascension to royal family more meaningful.

Really, in terms of lore that needs expanding... the Tash-Murkon are a major one. There is so very very little on them.

The curse of MMORPG lore, apparently, even when they do give you lore, it's usually not what you need >.<  This is why my guild spent six years building our own supplementary lore in WoW.

On that note, today I had to run the last RP I'll have with some of my oldest RP friends from WoW.  We never really got together for our Skulldance Clan reunion on Wyrmrest Accord, I don't have time to be home running the thing alone, my recruitment officer is about to lose internet, and we've been drifting apart in the game since Cataclysm, RPing only in Gtalk and Skype.  It's been threadbare for a while now, and we'll never get the transfers done to have an in-game presence as it is.  I guess it was time to wrap it up.  I wouldn't have said anything here, except that we were talking about it, but it's the (at least temporary) end to a long project that we all put together as a labor of love and damned the haters.


Maybe someday, I'll have the time to reboot the thing on WRA.  For now, though, it was a fitting sendoff, our IC wrapup of the SoO patch and MoP expansion.  I'm entering it upon the lore page now.

Here's one last scream for my beloved Skulldance Clan.

[Publius Valerius]

From what ...

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 it was Ardishapur who was opposed to the reunion.

? The term reunion or reunification doesnt exist neither in the news, nor the evelopedia.
"reconciliation" is the word. By the way off topic question, who was the guy which first used the term reunification? Just curious. If someone knows, write me. Because I cant think, that other wise smart people just roll with something so "outside the realm of common sense" without CCP employee starting it of (and I dont think it was TonyG or Eterne)....


Still likes where the thread is going......Moves back into the shadowes.

Secondly, the common misconception that the Khanid Kingdom is a kingdom of Khanid. King Khanid is True Amarr. The Khanid Family are True Amarr. The majority of Holders in the Kingdom are True Amarr. It has a higher percentage of Khanid holders than the Empire, and an equal or possibly greater Khanid:True Amarr ratio among commoners, but it is not a kingdom of the Khanid by the Khanid for the Khanid (unless the Khanid we're talking about here is King Khanid. Who is not Khanid).

Ehm.....
Just a minior thingy......equal??
I dont think the true amarr ratio to Khnaid could be equal (just my 50 cents).
Actually the Kingdom had two immigration waves of Khanids (Age of expanision and durning the khanid rebellion) here and here.... Which means that the overall I think it is save to say that the ratio isnt equal....
But in the end does it matter? No. Why? Because the Kingdom (and Empire) arent democracies. So If the True amarr are a minority doesnt matter, as they dont need "voter-majorities" to exersice power (religion and the of it derived caste-system those this). So the overall fear of becoming, or being, "powerless through numbers" wouldnt exist for this group. But as I said just my 50 cents, could think of that the next chronicle runs in the opposit direction of what I had said; and paints the True Amarr as people which fear a majority-minority-change like one of those late century movements on earth.

[Lyn Farel]

Real quick (tenth floor!)

That chronicle is why I figured they weren't so racist anymore.  Idonis obviously wasn't, himself, racist; he was fucking a Starkminar.  I got vibes of Tiberius in I, Claudius there, in particular.  Which is why I'm really pointing at the lore and saying, "Really?  Are they racist?  They seem to be doing what's politically expedient most of the time."  They're just more tied into the church than to the military.

I mean, that in and of itself was almost a century and a half ago.  That was before he issued the Khaedra Law that called for them to be left alone.  That was even before Heideran and the Pax Amarr.  Way before Jamyl Sarum and the emancipation.

This is what I'm talking about with the lore.  This piece of story happened in an Amarr Empire that the lore itself tells us, in the first pages of Amarr lore, came before a massive event that reshaped Amarrian political thinking.  All the modern signs point to the fact that things are changing at an impressive rate.  Is this lore still useful or relevant?  Or is it really a good idea to apply a glimpse into what Yonis's predecessor was thinking before the Minmatar Rebellion had even begun?

That's a lot of assumptions we're making that we don't necessarily have much evidence for.  It looks like he has more political reason, at the very least, to not stick to that racist stance than his father had to do the opposite.

Welcome into my world... I have been trying for ages to portray the Amarr as a modern religious nation rather than the spanish inquisition trope we can see everywhere. I think organisations like PIE do it as well, bu they focus on different sides (more militaristic, dogmatic). I think Nico does it too, where we try to focus on the Amarr empire as a very well cultured and learned society as described at times in the PF. As you say, a lot have changed in the approximate 500 Heideran/Doriam years of progressive Amarr Empire past Vak Atioth. While Heideran became only really active as an Emperor only at the end of his life through his projects with Aidonis, Vak Atioth is described to have completely shaken the Amarr certainty of everything and that they went soon into a reclusive time of doubt and questioning.

That, and the fact that they are a society as advanced as any,  with millenias of knowledge behind. They are NOT the Imperium of Man of W40K, for which a lot of people mistake them. So the trick is to picture a society that is modern, and yet not to fall into copying our own RL modern world, which is completely alien to them. They sure still believe that the cluster would be better as Amarr, like the Fed believes the same, or even the Minmatar who are not so reclusive than what we tend to think.

All in all, it's not easy. And double not easy these past years since there is basically almost no progressive and VOCAL Amarr characters left around. So, you tend to eat crows most of the time...

A few things I've read (and I really hate lorenazying, so take this as conversational rather than dictatorial) just make it sound like the ground rules have changed.  Let's take what you said as given, as a worst case scenario, that this is just a political stunt.  Just from the bare bones, the most solid stuff I can wring out of the lore:

-The Ammatar are ethnic Matari living in the Empire
-The Ammatar were given to the most stridently conservative of the Heirs
-The Heir saw fit to cater as best he could to the Ammatar and give them political power
-We are assuming he is doing this for his political benefit because this helps his house

Then what we can gather is that, worst case scenario, the Ardishapur Family has recognized that the race of Matari, at least those who follow the faith, are a better political asset than they are enemies and would be a wise investment of political capital.  That doesn't strike me as someone who sees them as barbarous heathens who aren't really part of the Amarr Empire, even at worst.  If he'd really believed that, they'd be absolutely worthless and he would have done exactly as expected because he wouldn't have cared what they thought.

Things have changed, particularly since the Elder Invasion in this case.  They're the most religiously traditional, but there were American laws on the books forbidding interracial marriage (and they found passages that they said supported this in the Bible) on the books until the Supreme Court declared them unconstitutional in 1967.  Not 50 years later, you can get thrown off your very popular cooking show for even having been reported to have used a derogatory racial slur.  Now, in the worst case scenario, those people who are racists are hiding it because blacks in America are now seen to have political power and worth, so they should be catered to.

I like to think we're better off than the worst case scenario, personally.  But even at its very worst, that says something about the fact that societies, no matter how traditional, move.

So how does this relate to the stuff on the Mandate?

If you don't think of everything in that scenario, that the reason the Matari have more power now is because they've essentially "proven" themselves by staying with the Empire through the combat and after the Elder Invasion, in spite of the fact that a lot of them were hiding pureblooded Starkminar (essentially hearkening back to their own tribal roots), I'd say that ethnic racism is starting to become a dying fad.  I mean, there's a Udorian heir, the Ammatar have at least earned some political power and respect in the Mandate, the Khanid have their Privy Council seat back despite their temporary secession.  Even the Ni-kunni, who we're supposed to think of with racist aspirations, are called out as probably rising to prominence in the future by Amarr historians.

It's hard, given what I've read, to think that things can just be taken as written about things a hundred years ago, or even from the beginning of the game.  The most relevant lore relates to the most recent developments.

It could be that racism just isn't a political viable option anymore.

[Author's Note]  Again, just my interpretation of what I've read.  I don't grimdark up everything I read, I try to reduce everything down and take it as neutrally as possible.

-The Heir saw fit to cater as best he could to the Ammatar and give them political power

Actually no, that's my main gripe with that part of the storyline. Ardishapur only made the Ammatar choke even more under his grip, striping them away from their identity and their political power/influence. Not saying its' good or bad per se since it brings interesting material, but that's only for the short run... In the long run, I believe it will only be harmful to the faction as a whole. He made the Mandate strong, but what he made "strong" (which is relative...) is an Ardishapur Mandate, not an Ammatar Mandate, is what I mean.

It's also not that the Ardishapur recognize the Matari as important, since Ardishapur was named and appointed by the Empress herself as a tool to fix things in the Mandate. I don't remember him to be all to happy about it, but it was a good opportunity for him, and he took it. Also yes, I agree with you that being an Ardishapur, he will probably be a lot more "humane" toward other races that need redeeming/enlightment than say, Merimeth Sarum or a Kador... Until they start to rebel, or take objection of course, and I believe that Ardishapur can be extremely repressive/oppressive religiously when people do not conform exactly to their bigotry.

Also you seem to assume that a modernized Amarr Empire would necessarily evolve the same way the western world did past the Age of Enlightment. I believe there is a bit of truth in that as the more civilized and the more progress is made socially as well as technologically, we tend to act less and less as animals. But it doesn't necessarily mean that racial tolerance goes along with it. Ours came from the declaration of human rights, enlightment philosophers, and the scientific revolution. I would argue that in the case of the human rights, the Amarr had none, and they don't precisely welcome the distorted one we could find in the Federation (although once again I believe they still probably get influence by it a bit, as it should be, and vice versa). In the case of philosophers, yes, they probably do. And they probably had a lot of them after Vak Atioth. I also more or less remembered the Amarr as a people prone to Agoras in a society that favours cultural and intellectual simulation, so, the difficulty here is to imagine what kind of morals precepts came out of it. In the case of the scientific revolution, contrary to RL historical Christianity, the Amarr religion embraces any scientific progress. I mean, RL Church also did but in an obscurantism environment, picking up what served them and keeping it for themselves and the scholars. So I would rather say that the modernized Amarr is certainly not following the same path than the western world did IRL. I however believe that they became more... open, more calm and level headed than they used to be, precisely because they are not the only advanced civilization anymore. Vak Atioth also shook their faith in traditional armed reclaiming, and they probably behave less like the Roman Empire than they did before.

So no, I would argue that the Ammatar have lost any bit of pitiful power they once claimed. They are now directly ruled by Ardishapur and not their own leaders (even seconded by an imperial governor as they were), they lost all credibility after the attack on their homeworld Halturzhan precisely because their leaders were actually conspirationnist Nefantars hiding Starkmanir and sacrifying their own children and people just for the sake of it. They also got completely swept apart by the Elder fleet that came at them (though that is not much different than what happened in Mekhios and Kor-Azor anyway, imperial fleets got destroyed here as well). But since a part of the Ammatar Fleet also defected in their wake, it certainly didn't help them, and it's not a surprise that the Empress decided that they needed urgently to be put back in the right path by a True Amarr, probably fearing that they started to be tempted by their treatorous nefantar leaders. And the icing on the cake added to the shame is Shakor that took the title of San Matar, which is the title of the Ammatar central constellation as well (I find that bit highly amusing though).

Frankly, I could hardly find a more negative way to picture the Ammatar. Once a thriving environment where extremely progressive ideas blossomed (cf Amarr Cultural Recess) as well as their opposite in the constant border war with the Republic, it's now a more or less stillborn nation. Unless, of course, CCP decides to fix it seriously someday, because at least, it's totally fixable.

[Lyn Farel]

The worst part about the Ammatar is that from the COSMOS missions, the mandate was *supposed* to be the epicenter of FW. There is this whole set of stories about a military buildup at Kenobanala that is about to go hot.

I get the impression someone decided a proxy war over Ammatar wouldn't be big enough, so they had the elder fleet breeze right through without a problem and made it a war between the principles.

Bleh, it's even worse since we already had that stupid proxy war happening. The war between the Mandate and the Republic never really faded out and was still raging through border skirmishes before TEA. Even better, there was also the caldari megas in the middle too, and the Gallente arming the Minmatar behind the curtain.

They could have rolled with that yes. But they didn't. They wanted "grandiose" and "epic" and... well, basically, you press a button and it's "awesome".

As far as the Mandate goes... personally I prefer what they did with it. But then I'm an Ardishapur fangirl.

Yeah but I find that a little selfish. It's the Ardishapur over another faction. I don't mind much factions going into trouble as it provides a lot of interesting drama and material, but the way it is done to the Ammatar is frustrating. They are just used as a storytelling tool or crutch to add light on Amarrian internal politics, without any concern for the Ammatar lore itself. It is still salvageable, but I don't believe they will do anything but let it die.

I think actually what bothers me the most is not the situation the Ammatar are into, because it provides change and interesting perspectives, but rather than it is left as it is, slowly dying. Like Colelie is left dying, like everything is left dying these days. And I don't want it to die like that. There is a huge potential in Derelik involving so many sides that it's almost crazy (the Amarr Houses for political gain, the Caldari megas, the Republic, and the Ammatar themselves).

Amarr are very, very, very confusing with how they name things. <.<

I have a theory in that the Khanid are probably a glimpse of the future for the Ammatar themselves. They started in similar ways : the Khanid helped the Amarr against the Udorians, and were granted their freedom at the side of the Amarr, and ruled by a True Amarr, taking the name of the province he ruled. So eventually, it became the Khanid people ruled by Khanid, of true amarr descent. The same way the Ammatar are ruled by the Amarr but still free as a people, and will maybe someday become a major political house of the Empire considering their sheer size. Unless they get annexed by Ardishapur, that is 

I'm also pretty sure that allowing Khanid back was a purely political move made to counter Ardishapur's opposition and growing power, and not in recognition of any actual fence-mending. You'll note that, of course, it was Ardishapur who was opposed to the reunion. I'm sure there's both religious and political reasons for that opposition.

For the most part, the wheeling and dealing of the heirs is built around political goals moreso than any representations of their actual beliefs (with the possible exception of Aritcio). Thus it's hard to take any of their public statements at face value. Almost everything we've seen out of Yonis for example is very carefully crafted to poke at Jamyl's authority on a very subtle level. I wouldn't doubt that his pro-tolerance policies are anything more than a method of combating Jamyl's own major political gains among free Minmatar. Jamyl would have gone up in popularity among Minmatar quite a bit with the emancipation. But then you remember that freed slaves have serious issues with poverty and integrating into Amarr society, which would have soured their immediate gains. Then in steps Yonis with schools, hospitals, education reforms, and pro-tolerance policies, and you start buying into him over Jamyl.

Yonis is fucking dangerous. Jamyl doesn't call him the most powerful man in the Empire for nothing. I'm honestly expecting Amarr to be building up to a second Moral Reform.

Really, that's the kind of stuff that makes me like EVE lore.

Yes I think it was a political cunning move too. It seems only logical that Khanid II and Yonis hate each other to no end, ideologically first, and since they are not of the same generation second. And Khanid is a damn heretic to a lot of people for what he did (succession trials), what he continues to do (slavery), and what he believes in (religious beliefs).

Tbh between all the heirs, there are so many discrepancies...

Khanid is extremely powerful as per his experience. He is truly dangerous militarily as well as politically and it's often the heir about whom I would be the more inclined to say "one does not just fuck with Khanid, or one will soon find himself very dead".

The Kador heir is a complete idiot. Too bad for Kador House, which lack a lot of lore and fleshing out. The only great person they have is Heideran VII... Okay, granted, and a lot of emperors.

Aritcio Kor-Azor, while being the Amarr batman and being cool and all, remains rather ridiculous to me. It's not very eve-ish to my eyes and that he spends his nights fighting wrong and injustice doesn't mean much to me. Where is gone the famous diplomatic and progressive Kor-Azor house ? But anyway, yes, barely dangerous imo.

Merimeth Sarum just sound like a tool, but well, there is Jamyl. I hate Jamyl on many points. She looks inconsistent. TonyG character anyway. It's hard to get a clear picture of the character...

Catiz TM however, sounds to me as dangerous as Yonis. We rarely hear about her, but considering her achievements and the sheer financial power of heir House, the only thing that probably hurts her is her Udorian heritage. Otherwise, I believe that she could prove to be a colossal foe to any other heir considering her network of relations, her wealth and influence, and her unusual pragmatic and shifting personality.

[Vic Van Meter]

Real quick note offhand, it kind of seems like this stuff would affect us more if we were groundside.  Might I suggest that it might be kind of fun if we could "pledge" ourselves to a specific house and gain access to short missions to provide us with new ships and equipment you couldn't get otherwise?  I'd love to fly whatever megalithic religious symbol the Ardishapur would have put together for themselves.

[Louella Dougans]

I don't think you can describe the Amarr as "racist".

[Publius Valerius]

Real quick note offhand, it kind of seems like this stuff would affect us more if we were groundside.  Might I suggest that it might be kind of fun if we could "pledge" ourselves to a specific house and gain access to short missions to provide us with new ships and equipment you couldn't get otherwise?  I'd love to fly whatever megalithic religious symbol the Ardishapur would have put together for themselves.

I would love some trailers:
- Game of Thrones: Pledge Your Allegiance - House Baratheon
- Game of Thrones: Pledge Your Allegiance - House Stark
- Game of Thrones: Pledge Your Allegiance - House Targaryen
- Game of Thrones: Pledge Your Allegiance - House Greyjoy
- Game of Thrones: Pledge Your Allegiance -- House Lannister

As for the Heirs and Khanid:
This page had ones give a small overview: http://community.eveonline.com/backstory/races/amarr/heirs/

Aritcio Kor-Azor

The last thing that Doriam Kor-Azor did before leaving for the inauguration ceremony was to name his son Aritcio as the new head of the Kor-Azor family, to the dismay of many. Aritcio is a master politician, having just the right mixture of dishonesty, paranoia and charm to ooze his way up the political ladder. Yet for all his slyness and cunning in carving himself a power position at the top Aritcio is totally clueless when it comes to the problems of the common man. His total naivety on the matter stems both from his sheltered life at the top, but more from his total lack of interest in the fate of the masses. Considered by most to be an egotistical, cold-hearted bastard, Aritcio was careful to cultivate the relationship with his father, who refuses to believe anything bad about his cherished son. The citizens of the Kor-Azor, used to the benevolent, fatherly rule of Doriam, are already trembling at the thought of what their new master might get up to. The only thing they can do is hope he doesn't suddenly become interested in fulfilling his civic duty and take an avid interest in the daily life of his subjects.
Uriam Kador

Uriam personifies all the traits that the Kadors hold so dearly: his tall, splendidly proportioned body gives him a majestic aura of grandeur, his keen intellect makes him a master of oratory and rhetoric and his refined manners inspire loyalty and respect. Uriam is a true leader of men, but his ambitions lie not in the realm of power and rule, but rather in the realms of the mind. A noted philosopher and poet, Uriam's view on life is very cosmopolitan. Not a true liberal or humanitarian, he is still positively enlightened compared to most of his fellow Holders. He has held various high-level posts within the empire, which have given him a thorough insight into every aspect of Amarrian society. He has already indicated that he will modernize the stale, conditioning education system within his domain, as well as streamlining the entangled, cumbersome trade laws. The only taint on his otherwise excellent carrier is his not-so-well hidden relationship with a Gallentean woman of high stature. His family hopes that Uriam, with his new responsibilities and duties, breaks these shameful ties with his mystery lover.
Catiz Tash-Murkon

Catiz Tash-Murkon is the youngest child of the late Davit Tash-Murkon. Yet it came as no surprise when he named her as his heir. When she was still in her teens she refused to follow the safe, but boring and restricting path her siblings took in the upper echelons of Holder society. Instead, she headed out on her own as a lone miner. From this humble start so many years ago she has slowly worked herself upwards, establishing a business empire to rival even that of her own father. All this time she has refused aid from her family, determined that what she built would be hers and hers alone. Now that she has inherited her father's vast domains to merge with her own the already formidable economical power of the Tash-Murkons is now stronger than ever. People are already jokingly saying that when Catiz sneezes the whole empire quivers. This is not far from the truth and many now anxiously wait to see how Catiz will wield her power. Few believe that becoming the richest person in the empire suffices to quench her burning ambitions.

As for me... my own little world view:
- Uriam Kador was for me a philosopher and poet, maybe even cosmopolitan. Very smart, but dont makes often the best decision (see last arc). While not a true liberal or humanitarian, he is still positively enlightened in a amarrian sense.
- Aritcio Kor-Azor. I cant tell. I not sure what to make out of him.
- Catiz Tash-Murkon strong minded woman who achieves her goals. How far those reach, those informations are up to her (she wouldnt be so stupid to tell); as she watches how the males destroy eachother. She is in my playbook, a little bit like Merkel: Power player with strong values.
- Merimeth Sarum cant tell.
- Yonis Ardishapur should be emperor. Case and point  No long talking.


- Khanid is a wildcard... former commander-in-chief, now sovereign of the (independent) Khanid Kingdom. Alittle bit like Catiz, but unlike her, I dont think he as any values. Meaning deep convictions, just that he loves to life (and call Heideran a fool  ).