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[Jace]

I have not heard or heard of any complaints regarding my public use of a soft clone in the aforementioned story I ran. To my knowledge, everybody was completely fine with the concept, and nobody cried foul when Katrina got her chest blown out on a Sunday by a rail rifle and woke up fifty light years away thinking it was still Thursday.

I am thus, inclined to suggest that the real issue here is that people don't want to be told when their character is dead. As long as it's someone else taking the bullet, they honestly could not give a flying frig.

We weren't talking about softcloning when discussing the tech thing. Earlier in the thread, several people mentioned that softcloning is widely accepted due to PF references and CCP actors acknowledging it.

[Katrina Oniseki]

Well that will teach me not to post before reading the entire thread.

[Jace]

So, when you connect to an RP venue, it is an event that has been publicised, and a group of people are present, and someone starts doing something, then unless you're in on it, then you just have to stand and stare, because any deviation from the script, by anyone, screws everything up?

It's not exactly making large events attractive or welcoming, is it ?

If by something you mean violent attack, then yes that is pretty much how I would describe it. And contrary to the large event not being attractive, it is attempting violent arcs during them that is unwelcoming.

Only CCP gets to define technologies, because they're universal. Players can do whatever, culturally, because of 'it's a big cluster', and a little corner of space could have some cultural difference.

It would be nice if people would stop trying to derail the thread, with descriptions of whatever made-up tech they want other players to accept. That's not the subject here. Make up a new thread if you want.

Agreed. Softcloning is accepted precisely due to the references in PF and CCP actors, not because it somehow "makes sense" to the players. The latter fact is nice but irrelevant.

[Louella Dougans]

[Katrina Oniseki]

Love it.

[Louella Dougans]

Love it.

thanks. I think it illustrates a few things. You have 1 dude, wanting to meet new people, 7 dudes with their pre-arranged things that aren't flexible enough to allow interactions, and the hostess. Dude only manages to meet and interact with the hostess.

I've been to several events where this sort of thing appears to happen. And to several RP venues, ones listed in the sticky up top for example, where the only people you'll see doing things, are running through what appears to be a prearranged script. Anyone else gets to be an audience, not a participant to any RP happening.

With backup clones, I don't see why, whenever someone makes an RP venue, why there always seems to be a big song and dance about "what security measures are there?", other than to enforce some kind of 'community approved' design for  all RP venues. Or to ask if there'll be active moderators present most of the time, or something.

It's like, everywhere is safe, secure, predictable. There's never anything unexpected, anything dangerous, or anything unscripted. Only surprises are when you're not aware of the script, which tells you that you're not one of the 'right people', when the surprise event is something that would be relevant to your interests. E.g. you're an amarr person, at some event, a bunch of amarr loyalists are also present, a group of minmatar appear, a sword fight ensues. You have no sword, because you're not in the loop, and none of the persons stabbed says "take my sword, avenge me!" or similar. Basically, you've just been shown, in front of everyone, that you're not the 'right sort', in the eyes of the 'community'.

It all gets a bit weird.

[Samira Kernher]

Seems no different from any other RP community. Clones have nothing to do with it. New person goes to an event. Sees other people RPing. Chooses to wait for RP to come to him, leaves disappointed because he didn't interact with anyone.

Getting 'in' to an RP community is not difficult. It just takes some initiative. In your sword example, the newbie shouldn't be awiting for someone to say 'take my sword, avenge me!'. He should reach down, pick up the sword, and say, 'I will avenge you!'.

It is not the duty of established players to hold the hands of new players.

As far as scripting goes... that's really over-exaggerating it. Some OOC discussions on the side to make sure things run smoothly when there is conflict is not scripting. While actual scripted stuff does happen, it's not 'every RP encounter between established characters' as you seem to be implying.


And if someone getting involved in some scripted thing -does- mess things up? Then good. Mess it up. If people didn't want it to get potentially messed up, they should have avoided doing it in a public setting to begin with.

[Shiori]

It is not the duty of established players to hold the hands of new players.

You know, it isn't, and it took me a while to accept that this is probably for the best; for most combinations of newbies and (hypothetical) hand-holders, the best outcome would be to recoil from the outstretched hand in horror, anyway.

Roleplayers: remarkably shit at putting themselves in other people's place.

[Saede Riordan]

I'm with Samira on this, I think its a gross exaggeration of what happens at most events. I know the groundbreaking festival event we ran back in December was completely unscripted on our part, and I'm fairly certain on other people's parts as well. (Ironically I'd meant to write a speech for Saede and preplan a bunch of stuff but then didn't have time because I'd mistimed thanksgiving and had to end up doing everything off the cuff).

I think that most events tend to be largely freeform, save for a few things the host might work out with some people loosely in advance. To give an example from talking to Katrina last night, no one but her and the shooter knew she was going to be assassinated, it was totally out of nowhere for everyone else, and they were left scrambling trying to figure out what to do. What they did was up to them, it was completely unscripted. Really the only things you need to cover out of character are things that really harm your character. If I pull out a gun, and threaten to shoot your character, that's not godmodding, it isn't godmodding until I /emote shoot your character in the head. The phrase 'the ability to swing your fist ends at the tip of my nose' comes to mind. But swing away. Just get OOC permission before you actually land a punch. That's pretty much the only scripting that needs to happen, and that's really not all that much considering.

In a lot of cases (using Katrina's assassination arc again as an example) its best to not script things too much. If Katrina had told the people she was with OOCly that the assassination was going to happen, a large portion of the impact of the event would have been lost. Too much scripting can be just as detrimental to RP as no scripting. I RPed with some people a few years back who wanted to spell out everything ahead of time, and it just wasn't fun. At that point, why roleplay it out at all? Why not just write it out as a story? Roleplay is supposed to be largely freeform, organic, and improvised. When you put it completely on rails, the fun goes out of it. I don't think putting it on rails completely happens very often, so I tend to agree with Samira that the problem discussed is rather exaggerated. I certainly take specific effort to talk to new RPers, and I know quite a few others do as well. There's plenty of room for off the cuff roleplay, as long as it doesn't harm another character. Its only when harm comes into play that OOC discussions need to occur.

[Louella Dougans]

Seems no different from any other RP community. Clones have nothing to do with it. New person goes to an event. Sees other people RPing. Chooses to wait for RP to come to him, leaves disappointed because he didn't interact with anyone.

And if someone getting involved in some scripted thing -does- mess things up? Then good. Mess it up. If people didn't want it to get potentially messed up, they should have avoided doing it in a public setting to begin with.

If everyone gives the impression they're completely wrapped up in things, and are not open to interaction (sometimes only because giant emotes make the chat scroll very quickly, and people miss things), then getting involved can be problematic.


And there's been big arguments, on this forum, about people 'interrupting' or 'ruining' RP taking place in public settings.

[Morwen Lagann]

And there's been big arguments, on this forum, about people 'interrupting' or 'ruining' RP taking place in public settings.

And the consensus (at least in this thread) seems to be that the people making these complaints can go right off and fuck themselves. If you're going to do something in public you 'risk' (more like invite) other people getting involved. Either roll with it or do your super-sensitive-has-to-go-exactly-as-planned RP arc privately away from public places.

I agree with Samira - your illustration is inaccurate in that it fails to recognize that the onus is often not on other people to go out of their way involve the new guy, but on the new person to take some initiative of his or her own and get involved. Sometimes people will go out of their way to introduce themselves to the new person, but the old saying "good things come to those who wait" simply does not apply with RP.

Good RP generally does not come to those who sit on their ass and wait for it to drop into their lap. It comes to those who go out of their way to create it.

There are plenty of people who are part of the newest 'generation' of RPers in EVE who are doing well for themselves, and it's not because they sat around and waited for people to poke them. It's because they went out of their way to dive in headfirst and got responses as a result.

One example: Steff, if he'll forgive being (ab)used this way - he dropped into the Summit shortly after creating his character and just started getting involved and interacting with others. He asked questions in OOC when he had them. He went to Silver's party thing and got to meet people there face to face because he went out of his way to have Steff talk to people, which also resulted in other people (myself included) going over to interact with him of our own volition. And that then resulted in all sorts of friendships and subsequent opportunities for further interaction and RP.

I'm also mostly in agreement with Samira and Shiori on the hand-holding thing, though I believe hand-holding is acceptable and should be in some ways expected to a point: I don't have a problem helping someone learn how to fit their ship, or showing them where to find PF they're interested in.

[Samira Kernher]

Seems no different from any other RP community. Clones have nothing to do with it. New person goes to an event. Sees other people RPing. Chooses to wait for RP to come to him, leaves disappointed because he didn't interact with anyone.

And if someone getting involved in some scripted thing -does- mess things up? Then good. Mess it up. If people didn't want it to get potentially messed up, they should have avoided doing it in a public setting to begin with.

If everyone gives the impression they're completely wrapped up in things, and are not open to interaction (sometimes only because giant emotes make the chat scroll very quickly, and people miss things), then getting involved can be problematic.

This is a fact of life for parties in general, IC or IRL.

This is speaking as someone who is A) shy IRL, B ) shy IC, and C) still fairly new to the EVE RP community myself. Just like RL, if you aren't good at social situations but still want to go to them then you need to work at it. For me, that's starting small. In new RP communities, I first ask myself, 'what do I want to do'. Then, 'who else is doing that?'. Then making contact with those people somehow--either joining their organization, coming up with some IC goal that necessitates pursuing them, or even just OOC asking to arrange something. Once you have those initial contacts, you can work towards expanding your network.

Frankly, I find parties to be an end result of social networking rather than a starting point. I can see how some people can get their start there if they're socially aggressive and charismatic, but for me I prefer to avoid them until I have someone to go there with.


Also, "impressions" of not being open to interaction are irrelevant. If someone is in a public setting, then they're available to the public. If they want to be doing private interaction then they'd be in a private setting. Most people are willing to interact with people if they get approached. What they aren't likely to do is approach a random stranger whom they have no reason to interact with.

Either way, it isn't the fault of the established players when a newbie doesn't get any RP if that newbie is doing nothing to try and create RP. It is the fault of established players when they are deliberately ignoring a character that is trying to interact with them, though this is not as common as some people claim it is.

I wanted to get into EVE RP almost a decade ago, and this is actually my 5th account. I failed in all previous attempts because I made the mistake of lurking in channels and being too shy to involve myself. I had no one to blame but myself. I've managed to integrate this time because I told myself no more fucking around and just dove right in.

[Jace]

The irony about all this discussion regarding "what do we do in these situations" or "how do we handle this public setting" is that there is a remarkable amount of agreement in this thread. This is a hint that the people who cause issues are usually fairly specific people, which is further a hint that they are typically doing it on purpose.

As far as hand-holding goes, you can usually tell instantly whether someone is just asking for advice OOCly and is shy. There is a big difference between someone OOCly looking for pointers and someone trying to get themselves fracking adopted. The former, I'll help them with PF and tips all day long. The latter can fall into a blender.

ICly, I agree with Morwen. People waiting for others to come to them are not playing the right game. The only way that ever works is if someone decides your character is worth stalking, and that's a whole different set of problems.

[Silas Vitalia]

Clone Backups/Death and 'not knowing' IC about events prior to clone death:

No big deal, your IC RP-Fu should all be strong enough to 'forget' IC things that need forgettin'.



Partehs:

Good events often tend to have a healthy mix of 'older' Rpers and be relatively inviting to 'new' RPers.

My personal preference is for 'mostly' unscripted outside of a plotted 'spine' of events.

IE things are to happen 90% unscripted except for a few scheduled speeches, performances, or the occasional spice of life dramatizing.  Let people do their own thing how they like in an environment you set up.

I'm strongly against any ic godmodding for uninvolved RPers.  Things like a bomb going off or things that 'effect' people present outside of their control. 

I'm ok with scripted/semi scripted 'things' happening to people in the know that might be set up ahead of time, but not with sudden godmodding of participants.

[Korsavius]

The solution is to not try to freaking assassinate people at events.

This pretty much. I mean I can understand a display of fisticuffs but assassinating? Lawls.