Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Synthia]

People trying to invent new things that have no basis whatsoever in the Eve universe are typically just trying to be sexy and original. Sorry, this is an MMO. There is no originality from players - we are in a premade world with its own canon.

Alrighty, we're getting somewhere now.

I don't think there is a solution.

I don't see one either, that's why I started the thread to begin with. See if there was something I was missing.


So, while clone backups are possible, and useful in cases of genuine accidents, what then is their usefulness in RP? other than situations for showing off? E.g. "I explored an uncharted world" and other such grandstanding? Is there a use for them in RP ?

Or is it just one of those things that has no direct usefulness in RP, because using it just gets messy and overcomplicated ?

[Jace]

People trying to invent new things that have no basis whatsoever in the Eve universe are typically just trying to be sexy and original. Sorry, this is an MMO. There is no originality from players - we are in a premade world with its own canon.

Alrighty, we're getting somewhere now.

I don't think there is a solution.

I don't see one either, that's why I started the thread to begin with. See if there was something I was missing.


So, while clone backups are possible, and useful in cases of genuine accidents, what then is their usefulness in RP? other than situations for showing off? E.g. "I explored an uncharted world" and other such grandstanding? Is there a use for them in RP ?

Or is it just one of those things that has no direct usefulness in RP, because using it just gets messy and overcomplicated ?

I think soft clones have plenty of great uses since they are so widely accepted, but only in the case of planned circumstances. There is no way to avoid the clusterbomb of OOC rage if you try to force someone into using a soft clone through some violent demonstration in public.

But in one's own fiction, or in an internal arc with friends that others may or may not hear about after the fact (and thus not able to cause a spastic panic OOCly), more power to you.

So if by "direct usefulness" you mean public events with random players able to react to you realtime, then I would agree there is no usefulness whatsoever.

[Samira Kernher]

People make too big a deal of these situations.

[Jace]

People make too big a deal of these situations.

By and large, I agree. It is not difficult to have semi-public arcs that have some OOC coordination for these types of situations. People desperately trying to fit these situations into fully public events is usually a desperate Mary Sue trying to be unleashed.

[Morwen Lagann]

The solution is to not try to freaking assassinate people at events.

/thread

[Arista Shahni]

If you want to kill someone that you do not get along with OOC, do it in space.   Nothing worse than kids from 2 sides of the street waving their sticks and toy guns fighting over who's imaginary shot hit who.

[Jace]

If you want to kill someone that you do not get along with OOC, do it in space.   Nothing worse than kids from 2 sides of the street waving their sticks and toy guns fighting over who's imaginary shot hit who.

They both lost to the third kid with magic missiles.

[Saede Riordan]

Lyn brings up some interesting scenarios so I'll address that first

How would you make your character (A) react when another character (B) brings up ICly something on which you as a player (p-A)  is in fundamental disagree with the other player behind (p-B) ?

Like the most stupid example but likely to happen :

Character B : "What do you think of soft clones ?"
Character A : "Soft clones do not exist"
Character B : "Of course they exist, I have several of them, as well as saves in an implant"
Character A : "Liar"

=> OOC drama.

Ok there, fine, players A and B start to ignore each other, as well as their characters.

I think the simplest solution is to not bring it up. This is of course a very 'meh' solution, but it works well in a lot of cases. To give a bit of an example, Saede and Ava have a lot of very fundamental differences in perspective surrounding religion, philosophy and Minmatar society. Saede's solution to avoiding conflict with Ava is to not bring it up, thus starting arguments. Anther example, my father is a republican, I'm a (dirty) liberal, and we don't remotely see eye to eye on it, but we still manage to peacefully interact as long as we don't discuss politics. So if you have a fundemental disagreement with a player on the nature of canon, you can just avoid talking about it and starting unneeded fights. To solve you example then, the best solution would have been for player B to not bring it up in the first place when they knew it had to potential to create conflict. This isn't an amazing solution I'll admit. The better solution would be for the players to come to some sort of consensus, but when that's not possible, just choosing not to force the issue isn't a terrible way to go about it.

Let's take another example. Someone says his character B has a special ability that you disagree with OOCly.

Character A and B take part in an event. Player B starts to use his ability even knowing you disagree with it, after all, he is free to have his fun too, which is legitimate.

How are you supposed to explain that to yourself, and your character ? How to react ICly after something like this happens ?

I'm not sure what you might be referring to here, but lets go with a relatively extreme example of someone deciding they're a wizard and starting to sling magic around everywhere. The solution to this is really just, ignore it, don't let it effect your character. In most cases people won't force something on your character, and if they do you can call them out for the more relevant OOC issue of them godmodding your character, then of the issue of whatever it is they're doing. If they're not actually effecting your character, then its pretty easy to just let them have their weird fun and just let it go. Again, its not an amazing solution, but there are solutions.

A well know and discussed case now.

Player A blows up player's B ship in space. There is nothing to loot, but player A claims that he abducted player B crew as part of his RP.

Player B disagrees OOCly and claims ICly that never happened.

This is a pretty clear case of outright godmodding and should rightly be called out as such.

Player A doesn't care and sells those slaves to someone else, player C, who starts to do all sort of stuff with them.

This escalates further with not only godmodding but another player (C) being party to the godmodding. If I were player A in this case, I would contact player C and see if something couldn't be worked out with them. Godmodding like this is only really legitimate if other players identify it as legitimate. If player C doesn't go along with it, the buck stops there. This is a case where the community shouldn't be supporting/endorsing godmodding in that manor, its poor form.

Eventually player A can still claim it's fake, that it's other people and not his crew and it will be up to everyone ICly to believe him or not. But it will still make a lot of OOC drama behind. That's basic godmodding, even out of good intentions.


At best it will lead to disagreeable solipsism, at worst both versions of what happened are conflicting.  Most of the time it will just be 2 versions of what happened conflicting but as they are exposed ICly, everyone can ICly deny them, so it's fine. But what isn't is the OOC behind.

It is godmodding, I agree. But its not caused by having disagreements about the canon, its outright infringing on another player's existence without their consent, and that's not okay. If someone came to me and said they wanted to capture my crew after they'd blown up my ship, I'd probably go along with it. But if they just went ahead and did it without asking, I'd consider that godmodding and (I think rightly) call them out on it. To give another example. If someone wanted to turn their character into a suicide bomber and blow my character up with it, if they talked about it with me beforehand, I would probably agree to it and help them sort something cool out (because yeah! roleplay conflicts), but if they just ran up to my character somewhere random, and tried that, I'd remove my character from the channel, and again, call them out on it OOCly. That's really in my mind the best way to deal with that sort of godmodding, don't legitimize it by responding to it or giving it the time of day ICly. Its an OOC issue and should be treated as such.

People trying to invent new things that have no basis whatsoever in the Eve universe are typically just trying to be sexy and original. Sorry, this is an MMO. There is no originality from players - we are in a premade world with its own canon.

I disagree. As long as there's no conflict with the existing canon, I see no reason expanding the universe. I mean, my corporation is out in wormhole space forming our own space civilisation right now. That's pretty original. Should we be denied and told we can't start our own faction because 'there is no originality from players and this is a premade world?' I don't think so at all. There's tons of originality and room for player made stuff in the universe. Napaani, Happy Chips, Starsi, there's all sorts of player made things in the universe, and I think saying 'no, you can't make stuff up' is unnecessarily restrictive to everyone. Where would we be if we could only roleplay within the bounds of existing canon? How many times would we have walked the same tired roads in 10 years of RP? After the 300th slaver vs. nonslaver argument in the summit, it starts to get stale and people start looking for something new. This is supposed to be a living breathing universe, and it should be allowed to do so. 

So, while clone backups are possible, and useful in cases of genuine accidents, what then is their usefulness in RP? other than situations for showing off? E.g. "I explored an uncharted world" and other such grandstanding? Is there a use for them in RP ?

Or is it just one of those things that has no direct usefulness in RP, because using it just gets messy and overcomplicated ?

I think so. As an example, I think it was about half a year ago, that Katrina Oniseki was assassinated outside a restaurant by a dust merc with a high powered rifle. This kicked off quite a bit of very interesting seeming RP, and while I wasn't involved in it, from the sidelines it seemed like a pretty awesome arc, with Katrina not only trying to deal with her violent death and memory loss, but also hunting down the people who hired the mercenary and all of that. Its entirely possible to use softclones to create cool RP events, it just (like anything else) requires some application of tact.


In closing:

The solution is to not try to freaking assassinate people at events.

/thread

[Jace]

I disagree. As long as there's no conflict with the existing canon, I see no reason expanding the universe. I mean, my corporation is out in wormhole space forming our own space civilisation right now. That's pretty original. Should we be denied and told we can't start our own faction because 'there is no originality from players and this is a premade world?' I don't think so at all. There's tons of originality and room for player made stuff in the universe. Napaani, Happy Chips, Starsi, there's all sorts of player made things in the universe, and I think saying 'no, you can't make stuff up' is unnecessarily restrictive to everyone. Where would we be if we could only roleplay within the bounds of existing canon? How many times would we have walked the same tired roads in 10 years of RP? After the 300th slaver vs. nonslaver argument in the summit, it starts to get stale and people start looking for something new. This is supposed to be a living breathing universe, and it should be allowed to do so. 

Wormholes, colonies, etc., all exist within the Eve universe very explicitly and logically. There's a difference between utilizing material in interesting ways and inventing off the wall unicorn stuff. And things like Napaani were again, developed based on the stuff we were given within the Eve universe. Granted, that one had more invention in it than normal - but it was also done very well, was an uncontroversial idea, and was widely accepted by a community that wanted to use it.

Player extrapolation of already existing concepts or material is entirely different than attempting to completely invent something - especially something in the area of cloning, implants, and other controversial topics within the community that have major implications for other players if the inventor attempts to use or mention them publicly.

People can go ahead and invent what they want, but they certainly can't expect the community to acknowledge their invention in any meaningful way.

[Saede Riordan]

I think that's largely a case of what some of us consider reasonable extrapolation off existing canon, and while others of us think something is completely off the wall. In that case, I think it comes down to what the community decides. If someone invents something, or comes up with some new tech or somesuch, then its up to the community to decide whether or not to embrace it, both ICly and OOCly. I don't think that's a reason not to try to put things out there, anymore then in real life your oddball invention might be hailed as the innovation of a generation, or it might be completely ignored and left into the dustbin of history.

[Jace]

I think that's largely a case of what some of us consider reasonable extrapolation off existing canon, and while others of us think something is completely off the wall. In that case, I think it comes down to what the community decides. If someone invents something, or comes up with some new tech or somesuch, then its up to the community to decide whether or not to embrace it, both ICly and OOCly. I don't think that's a reason not to try to put things out there, anymore then in real life your oddball invention might be hailed as the innovation of a generation, or it might be completely ignored and left into the dustbin of history.

Sure, there is nuance in much of this. But the primary difference in what often gets balked at is twofold: is it tech, and will it dramatically effect your interaction with other players. People tend to back away from made up technology because the implications are almost always huge and unforeseen, which leads to altering (and often godmoding) interactions with other players.

For something like Napaani, it has no effect on players who don't like it. They simply don't use it. You can't ignore tech in such a way, especially when it comes to things like cloning. Everyone uses clones, thus your invention is now declaring how their character's technology works. That is godmoding.

[Katrina Oniseki]

I have not heard or heard of any complaints regarding my public use of a soft clone in the aforementioned story I ran. To my knowledge, everybody was completely fine with the concept, and nobody cried foul when Katrina got her chest blown out on a Sunday by a rail rifle and woke up fifty light years away thinking it was still Thursday.

I am thus, inclined to suggest that the real issue here is that people don't want to be told when their character is dead. As long as it's someone else taking the bullet, they honestly could not give a flying frig.

[Saede Riordan]

For something like Napaani, it has no effect on players who don't like it. They simply don't use it. You can't ignore tech in such a way, especially when it comes to things like cloning. Everyone uses clones, thus your invention is now declaring how their character's technology works. That is godmoding.

I don't think its declaring anything. I think its really no different then Napaani. The character can always choose to just ignore it or not use it. Like softcloning, like happy chips, like anything else really.

[Synthia]

I think soft clones have plenty of great uses since they are so widely accepted, but only in the case of planned circumstances. There is no way to avoid the clusterbomb of OOC rage if you try to force someone into using a soft clone through some violent demonstration in public.

But in one's own fiction, or in an internal arc with friends that others may or may not hear about after the fact (and thus not able to cause a spastic panic OOCly), more power to you.

So if by "direct usefulness" you mean public events with random players able to react to you realtime, then I would agree there is no usefulness whatsoever.

So, when you connect to an RP venue, it is an event that has been publicised, and a group of people are present, and someone starts doing something, then unless you're in on it, then you just have to stand and stare, because any deviation from the script, by anyone, screws everything up?

It's not exactly making large events attractive or welcoming, is it ?

People tend to back away from made up technology because the implications are almost always huge and unforeseen, which leads to altering (and often godmoding) interactions with other players.

Only CCP gets to define technologies, because they're universal. Players can do whatever, culturally, because of 'it's a big cluster', and a little corner of space could have some cultural difference.

It would be nice if people would stop trying to derail the thread, with descriptions of whatever made-up tech they want other players to accept. That's not the subject here. Make up a new thread if you want.

[Katrina Oniseki]

It would be nice if people would stop trying to derail the thread, with descriptions of whatever made-up tech they want other players to accept. That's not the subject here. Make up a new thread if you want.