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[V. Gesakaarin]

This is a thought that occurred to me while discussing the Amarr Scriptures elsewhere, but is there a possibility that in the Empire higher education might have a religious aspect to it? What I mean is that, instead of universities as we think of them, do Amarr universities teach the scientific doctrines within the scriptures? Do you go to Hedion University and become something like an ordained minister of high energy physics, for example? Does Amarrian peer review have a scriptural aspect to it? That it has to pass certain scientific standards of rigor to be included in the scriptures?

[Druur Monakh]

Certainly possible, if not likely.

I'm too lazy to look it up right now, but the parallel to the medieval ages has already been drawn: in those times, religious people were at the forefront of research, because they were educated, and they saw it their holy duty to understand God's world better.

The problem arises when scientific discovery collides with dogma (something researchers in Soviet Russia also had to battle) - then something has to give.

Not knowing the PF, I don't know where the Amarr fall, but I can imagine a faith where the mortal representatives do not claim to have all the knowledge or to be infallible (unlike Earthen religious leaders of all kind). If one of the basic understandings of Amarrian faith is that the Scriptures will always be incomplete, and that only the most rigorously reviewed findings are worthy to be added, I can see this combination of science and religion actually work.

An un-dogmatic religion - there's a thought.

[Vic Van Meter]

This is a thought that occurred to me while discussing the Amarr Scriptures elsewhere, but is there a possibility that in the Empire higher education might have a religious aspect to it? What I mean is that, instead of universities as we think of them, do Amarr universities teach the scientific doctrines within the scriptures? Do you go to Hedion University and become something like an ordained minister of high energy physics, for example? Does Amarrian peer review have a scriptural aspect to it? That it has to pass certain scientific standards of rigor to be included in the scriptures?

Yeah, it's a common theme that, as opposed to being different disciplines, religion permeates all aspects of Amarrian society.  That also means that the religion is much more scientific and interpretive.  Don't let the titles and ceremonies that are largely drawn from strict Catholic and Muslim backgrounds fool you.  They may have deacons, but the Amarrian Empire definitely hearkens back to a time in history when religious people were also very often also scientists.

[Lyn Farel]

There is still a bit of dogma in the Empire, which is only logical considering how conservative it can be on things. One just has to look at the sacred flesh debate and that kind of things.

The difference between the Amarr and most churches of RL History lies in the fact that the latter often did everything to kill new dangerous ideas out of dogma, where the Amarr have that duality where conservatism and traditions of a stable millenia old empire will always question the necessity of a new idea, and if that is not actually heresy (going against the current scripture canon), but will also consider it out of the other dogma, the scientific one based on knowledge.

[Davlos]

[Arista Shahni]

Don't know how anyone else handled it, but Arist is a psychologist/spiritual counselor because in my viewpoint in Amarr society the two would not be separate things.  Her training means "disassociative disorder == spiritual crisis". 

In the real world these things are considered separate by scientists because of the concept of Dualism, where the "unseen" was assigned to the church and the "seen" as was assigned to the scientists, and the two shall never meet so that the Church could stop chopping firewood to burn all these smartypants saying that the the Earth wasn't in the center of the universe.  In my own head I just assigned the idea of unity - where the seen AND the unseen are all pure radiations from the Divine and should not be treated as separate and incompatable thought-forms, and because I'm Khanid and can do what I want with the written Scriptures as displayed in the Wiki, that all living entities are in a procession to Ascendancy to re-join the broken circle which was "God is Man".  Therefore, when a scientist invents a new MWD, where did that though come from? "Thank the Lord".

The Theology Council and that stuff, I can't comment on it, being the half crazed Khanid Zealot I RP.   But mainly it functions as a valve so that the Empire can proceed (albeit slowly) without fracturing tradition.  If you have a bit of unfired clay and bend it too quickly, it will fracture.  Do it slowly, with tools and patience and you have created a new shape from an old one.

The Scriptures are not just those couple thousand words in the Wiki.  No one person can read them in their lifetime.  Then there's that cool as hell shit like the Book of Truths.  It's also a living growing breathing doctrine - again stopgapped by the Theology council who gets to decide which new thought process from which new Priest of this or that fits in.  So, does it mesh with science?  In my head, dman straight.  The Theology Council is the Old Boys Network, your Peer Reviewers, who take your paper and go "bull shit - UNFUNDED!" or "Brilliant!  FUNDED! PUBLISHED! NOBLE PRIZE THIS!"

Revelation burrows through the material world, devours creation's soil, digests the thoughtless void, and produces significance with God's grace. From emptiness comes meaning, essence from existence, soul from matter.

Is God through the wormhole? Did God grant us this boon, this new technology, a revelation from on high? These weapons are God's new prophecy, domain, and blessing. Let us use God's grace and prepare New Eden. We are God's soldiers, weapons, glory. Our people are God's army. Together, we are the legion.

    -The Heresies of Hinketsu

Amarr Strategic Cruiser Skill Bonus: 5% Reduction in the amount of heat damage absorbed by modules per level.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Just a small heads ups: Somen of the world best scientists are katholic men of the cloth. Especially the Jesuits have produced and still do produce some of the greatest astrophysicists of our world. The katholic dogma since Aquinas is that there are two books of God: The Bible and nature.

In katholicism there is no dichotomy of science and religion, nor is it anywhere else, tbh, but in metaphysical naturalism - which is championed by the modern evangelical atheists.

[Safai]

A number of philosophers and thinkers of the middle ages—priests, rabbis and scientists alike—felt it was not necessary to interpret scripture in a literal manner that was at odds with the findings of science, but rather should be read in a way that is supported by the knowledge we have. Among them were St. Augustine of Hippo, Moses Maimonides, and (much earlier yet) Philo of Alexandria.

I think the Amarr Empire would probably have a very similar approach when rationalizing religion and science.

[Elmund Egivand]

You know what is funny? My character, a Minmatar, actually does as advised by the AdMech in the pic. Of course, not actually a prayer. More like a ritual really, and incorporated into his repair-work.

[orange]

Just a small heads ups: Somen of the world best scientists are katholic men of the cloth. Especially the Jesuits have produced and still do produce some of the greatest astrophysicists of our world. The katholic dogma since Aquinas is that there are two books of God: The Bible and nature.

In katholicism there is no dichotomy of science and religion, nor is it anywhere else, tbh, but in metaphysical naturalism - which is championed by the modern evangelical atheists.

I do not disagree that Catholic (English spelling), especially Jesuit, priest/monks are also scientist and do not have issues with a dichotomy between science and faith.

I do disagree with the statement that there are not others beyond evangelical atheists who establish a dichotomy of science and religion.  In the United States, the dichotomy is enforced by "evangelical Christians"*.  While a Catholic priest/scientist does not see a dichotomy between Darwin's Theory of Evolution and their creation beliefs, there are plenty of "evangelical Christians" in modern America who do.  They tend to take numerous components of the New International Version of the Old and New Testament as true as written without any room for allegory or interpretation.

*Quotes are appropriate, it is what they call themselves, despite their own failure to live up to their saviors teachings.

[Vic Van Meter]

Just a small heads ups: Somen of the world best scientists are katholic men of the cloth. Especially the Jesuits have produced and still do produce some of the greatest astrophysicists of our world. The katholic dogma since Aquinas is that there are two books of God: The Bible and nature.

In katholicism there is no dichotomy of science and religion, nor is it anywhere else, tbh, but in metaphysical naturalism - which is championed by the modern evangelical atheists.

I do not disagree that Catholic (English spelling), especially Jesuit, priest/monks are also scientist and do not have issues with a dichotomy between science and faith.

I do disagree with the statement that there are not others beyond evangelical atheists who establish a dichotomy of science and religion.  In the United States, the dichotomy is enforced by "evangelical Christians"*.  While a Catholic priest/scientist does not see a dichotomy between Darwin's Theory of Evolution and their creation beliefs, there are plenty of "evangelical Christians" in modern America who do.  They tend to take numerous components of the New International Version of the Old and New Testament as true as written without any room for allegory or interpretation.

*Quotes are appropriate, it is what they call themselves, despite their own failure to live up to their saviors teachings.

I wouldn't pay them any mind.  You don't get to take the Old Testament as read and then eat pork or shrimp.

I mean, I could pour pop rocks into coke and call myself a chemist.  It would technically be true, but I don't think DuPont would take me very seriously.

[Morwen Lagann]

Just a small heads ups: Somen of the world best scientists are katholic men of the cloth. Especially the Jesuits have produced and still do produce some of the greatest astrophysicists of our world. The katholic dogma since Aquinas is that there are two books of God: The Bible and nature.

In katholicism there is no dichotomy of science and religion, nor is it anywhere else, tbh, but in metaphysical naturalism - which is championed by the modern evangelical atheists.

I do not disagree that Catholic (English spelling), especially Jesuit, priest/monks are also scientist and do not have issues with a dichotomy between science and faith.

I do disagree with the statement that there are not others beyond evangelical atheists who establish a dichotomy of science and religion.  In the United States, the dichotomy is enforced by "evangelical Christians"*.  While a Catholic priest/scientist does not see a dichotomy between Darwin's Theory of Evolution and their creation beliefs, there are plenty of "evangelical Christians" in modern America who do.  They tend to take numerous components of the New International Version of the Old and New Testament as true as written without any room for allegory or interpretation.

*Quotes are appropriate, it is what they call themselves, despite their own failure to live up to their saviors teachings.

I wouldn't pay them any mind.  You don't get to take the Old Testament as read and then eat pork or shrimp.

I mean, I could pour pop rocks into coke and call myself a chemist.  It would technically be true, but I don't think DuPont would take me very seriously.

You wouldn't, sure. Neither would I, or, probably, the rest of the people posting in this thread.

But the people that they pander to are precisely the (arguably) uneducated and supremely gullible sort that would, and that happens to describe a rather large number of people - which is the problem that orange is alluding to there.

[Lyn Farel]

Since evangelical atheists are by definition trying to spread the "religion" of atheist, I don't think they call for a dichotomy since they believe that their certainty of the absence of god is part of science...

It's the same on both extremes, really.

[Safai]

I do have to agree with both sides here, but Nicoletta is still on to something when saying there's no (or for my part at least a very ambiguous) dichotomy between scripture interpretation and scientific method amongst scientists who are, for better or worse or whatever reason, religious or of faith, both historically and today.

I wouldn't pay them any mind.  You don't get to take the Old Testament as read and then eat pork or shrimp.

With a flat literal interpretation? Sure, you'd be obligated to observe kashrut.

With oral torah/midrash/orthodox anything/additional interpretation (exegesis)? Only if you're actually Jewish, otherwise no need according to most traditions. Quran? Halal for sure.

With (and this may be a strange one to some people) your own interpretation? Magic happens! Or doesn't, it's up to you. I'm hyperbolizing of course, but it's the same reason two people can read the same novel and receive two different underlying messages.

We're treading into the territory of hermeneutics now and this thread could really be yanked back on course, so I'll reiterate my statement that the Amarr Empire probably mostly* uses an approach where their understanding of the meaning of scripture is placed into their much broader understanding the universe as revealed by science. This probably keeps the Theology Council very, very busy.

Another way to put it would be that they use scientific findings to expand upon, alter the perception of, or find new meaning to Amarrian scriptures.

As opposed to burying or stifling science to endlessly twist their findings in accordance with a rigid framework of scriptural understanding or dogma.

I use the word *mostly because I'm sure there would be some rigidly dogmatic or zealous crackpot scientists or clergymen resistant to change in Amarria too, who cause problems and slow academic and cultural progress. Much the same, there are probably scientists concerned purely with secular matters, who may not even care much for the Theology Council at all. However, both of these types are probably uncommon, and don't make up the vast majority within the Empire.

Does this jive with everyone?

[Druur Monakh]

Does this jive with everyone?

10-4, me hearty!

... uhm, I mean: yes.