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[purple]

  Hell, you could make the case that a freighter hauling equipment to Caldari fleets farther from their home system would be loyalists, or scientists trying to build better weapons for them.

I wonder how much taxes and broker fees the Caldari Navy (Jita 4-4) has collected from LDIS's importing and exporting to Providence.   

[Vic Van Meter]

Thing is, if all you're doing is running missions then from a certain IC perspective it's justifiable that nothing really separates your character from the countless thousands of other military contractors doing exactly the same. It's the same with doing industry or trade. The distinctions lie in how you portray your character, much like in the real world personality counts for a lot. The same could be said for doing PvP. Thing is for me, when people end up trying to portray a character that isn't congruent with what's happening in-game. If all you do is missions, industry, or trade then try to play some sort of hardened badass then don't get your panties in a knot if those other capsuleers who shoot other capsuleers look up your KB and go, "Oh really guy?" It's the same as if I tried to pass Veikitamo Gesakaarin as a philanthropist who cares about the children, then complained if people called her to account on her outlaw sec status and all the spaceships she's exploded in lowsec. Everything is a matter of perspective and you can't tell other players or characters how they should view your own.

The only qualifier of any importance to me is if your character does as they say and it doesn't matter if it's exploration, industry, trade, missions, or whatever else you want to do in the game. However, if you remain unsatisfied that your character isn't being treated the way you think they should be, then at least recognize that if there's going to be any pretense of realism in RP then of course there's going to be varying opinions and perspectives about them that can change over time -- that's a good thing.

The reason why I hate the very concept of loyalist as it applies to Eve is that it's always going to be a denial of subtlety and varied perspective. It just makes everything black and white, loyalist or not, that makes RP boring as fuck. I've never been concerned about it, but it always seems like every character I might interact with has players that want to be some kind of loyalist stereotype and get into some kind of who is more loyal recognition/popularity contest.

Screw that, I've worked long and hard to ensure there's enough legitimate excuses to loathe either myself, my characters, and the organization they are a part of to care all too much. I also sure didn't join FW to impress upon others how uber-loyal and special my character in it is, I do it because I enjoy PvP and it made sense given what I say my character is: A Caldari military contractor. But all I detect all the time is that the only major concern for so many remains peer validation of some form so why even bother trying to put the effort in at building depth or complexity in external interaction if all that is desired is some kind of bland stereotypes for approval.

I do think that people take a very Us v. Them mentality applied to lots of things in this game where that's not necessarily the case.  Loyalty is a personality trait, but isn't something you'd have a number for in an in-character situation.  I mean, if an Amarrian believes God will smite the Empire if he doesn't kill an Amarrian general every Tuesday, you could say he was a crazy, murderous sociopath, but he'd technically still be a loyal Amarrian, as he's acting out of a sense of duty.

Plenty of loyal people aren't doing their empires any favors, let's say.

[Arista Shahni]

PvE characters can't talk about redex kills.  We do way too many.  Other than the encapsulating phrase "When you kill thousands of men a day, it never hurts to be polite", there's not much people say beyond "Security Contractor".  When even miners kill 1000ppl a day via drones and belt rats.... yeah. 

Even OOC players joke about how much these groups must incessantly fuck to keep the rooms packed full of ships.  In EvE, IC and OOC, PvE is almost an anomaly.  We work around it.

The only time you can take something specific from it is if someone else was involved, and yes it's story crafting.  Like 'yeh sure I'll fly a Noctis for you gais' .. and bored you're watching your char siphoning up your own factions wrecks and go.. "Heh.  This is kind of fucked up.  I could make this specific incident a Thing."  Or if there's a killmail, and only one kind is produced from PvE - lossmails.

PvE did NOT scale up -- for a reason.  Cause EVE does not have a cap, and there are 10year old players  It might not match up the way it used to, but easier than try to match something like that CCP left it the fuck alone.  If you're an ISK rich 100mil SP and running missions don't shit on the 15mil SP toons trying it and yell "lol its EASY", cause that was you once and at one (and still now of a) point with no ISK help they used to be hard, the in game economy has changed and made it harder to afford ship replacements, just as eve-survival at one time prolly didn't exist.  How old is that site anyway? 

Anyway most everyone has their PvE battleship lossmail, it's just dependent on how old it is in the database.  In fact, L4's used to require fleets of battleships.  I know, this old can-waving vet is telling me so.  Just cause your faggy Tengu can do it AFK don't tell me everyon else can.

Another good point - no pirate faction can prove they fight for the pirates.  Fuckin' WORSE cause the Sansha will shoot at TS-F, Angels will shoot at Stillwater.  Even other MMOs generally remove the agro tags from mobs in those situations once  you have enough faction standing with a group (and usually apply it to another group.. but as everything but the Peddlers tend to spew hot death, there's nowhere else to put it.  And sure there's CONCORD to shoot pirates, but for some reason the entirety of Imperial Space is the shittiest space to live in.  The belts are shit, the PI is shit, the area is exhausted of natural resources p much.  Only the weakest groups of the NPCs live there, and people can just use alts to move their shit to low.  Not hard.)

[purple]

Sure, Kat thinks that Vikarion is a total patriot douche, but she'd make sweet, sweet love to him and every other patriot and practical before she'd give a Gallente model a kiss. Why? Because fuck them, that's why. We're family. Sure, I hate you and you hate me, but only when there isn't someone else around to really keep us busy.

This used to be one of my favorite things about the Caldari community on the IGS.   We'd bitch and through lamps at each other up to the point when a non-caldari tried to weigh in on one side other.    Then, without any actual coordination we'd become a unified front just like real Caldari would.

[Desiderya]

There's an absence of an anti-caldari front at the moment. Everyone just hates on Diana Kim who even Caldari can frown upon these days. I do remember, when good old Hethler was still around, defending DK from frothing Summiteers, so yes, I agree Hamish.


Bottom line for me regarding the latest discussion: Don't claim (your character) to be anything else than what you deliver. Even with PvE content there are differences. Take lowsec/nullsec exploration, for example. The risks involved in this one are higher, if not by the NPC difficulty, then by the mere fact that you end up needing some survival skills useful against other capsuleers. When I've joined LDIS as a little returning nublet I've spent my majority of time in lowsec, dodging pirates - essentially fighting them without weapons, picking up some of those necessary survival skills.

[Arista Shahni]

Ask when people aren't forum warrioring how safe they feel in Empire as a carebear.

[orange]

Maybe it's this combination of cold vodka and warm sauerkraut talking here but some days it just feels like the wild west in here, except the tumbleweeds drift by and all the gunslingers are inside the saloon discussing the finer points of whether to wear their six shooters on the left side or the right side, or if indeed it really is better to have duels at high noon. All the while complaining just how damn boring it can be out there on the frontier.

Clearly the answer is on the side where your aim is best and high noon makes the shadows equal.  Also, not all of us have time pieces.

  Hell, you could make the case that a freighter hauling equipment to Caldari fleets farther from their home system would be loyalists, or scientists trying to build better weapons for them.

I wonder how much taxes and broker fees the Caldari Navy (Jita 4-4) has collected from LDIS's importing and exporting to Providence.   

I would have to do the math for the last trip.  Probably around 500M ISK spent on metamaterials (which are essentially only sold in Jita), so tax/broker calculations from there.  I also try to avoid going to Jita (hive of villainy that it is).

[V. Gesakaarin]

Thing is, if all you're doing is running missions then from a certain IC perspective it's justifiable that nothing really separates your character from the countless thousands of other military contractors doing exactly the same. It's the same with doing industry or trade. The distinctions lie in how you portray your character, much like in the real world personality counts for a lot. The same could be said for doing PvP. Thing is for me, when people end up trying to portray a character that isn't congruent with what's happening in-game. If all you do is missions, industry, or trade then try to play some sort of hardened badass then don't get your panties in a knot if those other capsuleers who shoot other capsuleers look up your KB and go, "Oh really guy?" It's the same as if I tried to pass Veikitamo Gesakaarin as a philanthropist who cares about the children, then complained if people called her to account on her outlaw sec status and all the spaceships she's exploded in lowsec. Everything is a matter of perspective and you can't tell other players or characters how they should view your own.

The only qualifier of any importance to me is if your character does as they say and it doesn't matter if it's exploration, industry, trade, missions, or whatever else you want to do in the game. However, if you remain unsatisfied that your character isn't being treated the way you think they should be, then at least recognize that if there's going to be any pretense of realism in RP then of course there's going to be varying opinions and perspectives about them that can change over time -- that's a good thing.

The reason why I hate the very concept of loyalist as it applies to Eve is that it's always going to be a denial of subtlety and varied perspective. It just makes everything black and white, loyalist or not, that makes RP boring as fuck. I've never been concerned about it, but it always seems like every character I might interact with has players that want to be some kind of loyalist stereotype and get into some kind of who is more loyal recognition/popularity contest.

Screw that, I've worked long and hard to ensure there's enough legitimate excuses to loathe either myself, my characters, and the organization they are a part of to care all too much. I also sure didn't join FW to impress upon others how uber-loyal and special my character in it is, I do it because I enjoy PvP and it made sense given what I say my character is: A Caldari military contractor. But all I detect all the time is that the only major concern for so many remains peer validation of some form so why even bother trying to put the effort in at building depth or complexity in external interaction if all that is desired is some kind of bland stereotypes for approval.

I do think that people take a very Us v. Them mentality applied to lots of things in this game where that's not necessarily the case.  Loyalty is a personality trait, but isn't something you'd have a number for in an in-character situation.  I mean, if an Amarrian believes God will smite the Empire if he doesn't kill an Amarrian general every Tuesday, you could say he was a crazy, murderous sociopath, but he'd technically still be a loyal Amarrian, as he's acting out of a sense of duty.

Plenty of loyal people aren't doing their empires any favors, let's say.

I'd agree but the thing is Eve godmodes your character off the bat to be a freelance capsuleer, a free agent under CONCORD, hell you even get factional items clearly saying, "You are free from any and all obligations" as a capsuleer playing Eve Online. Why the hell then is there always so much concern and angst sometimes from people if they're "Loyal enough to be a loyalist"? If your character really wanted the cred, or was in it for the hardcore duty they'd be a capsuleer enlisted directly by a Navy or Company - but they're not.

So why worry so much about it? It just doesn't make sense to me. You get the option to be creative and design your own reasons why your character is a capsuleer freelancer, but that isn't good enough? You need an official stamp of approval from a faction smacked on your head in order to RP now?

I mean damn, if I really wanted to I could probably have Veik be one of the most CCP backed "Caldari loyalist" characters given her leadership position and involvement with certain dev chars but I don't, because I honestly, seriously could not give a fuck. Even the times others have asserted she's a representative of, or directly involved with KK she has flatly and outright denied that she is in any way at all.

Why?

Because her background is that she became a freelance capsuleer to become a Kaalakiota non-attributable deniable asset resource and competitive intelligence agent.

Not a bloody, "Caldari Loyalist" that needs approval and validation to do what she does.

[Katrina Oniseki]

There's an absence of an anti-caldari front at the moment. Everyone just hates on Diana Kim who even Caldari can frown upon these days. I do remember, when good old Hethler was still around, defending DK from frothing Summiteers, so yes, I agree Hamish.

Whenever someone posts something not so nice about Caldari Prime or the reasons for the age old war.... you tend to see the Caldari form up in a firing line pretty damn quick. Vikarion, Katrina, Veikitamo, Stitcher, even Diana... all standing shoulder to shoulder and facing front against the Imperialist Federation Dirty Pig-Dogs!

Of course, we sometimes snap their jowls at each other if someone gets too snuggly...

[Katrina Oniseki]

I'd agree but the thing is Eve godmodes your character off the bat to be a freelance capsuleer, a free agent under CONCORD, hell you even get factional items clearly saying, "You are free from any and all obligations" as a capsuleer playing Eve Online. Why the hell then is there always so much concern and angst sometimes from people if they're "Loyal enough to be a loyalist"? If your character really wanted the cred, or was in it for the hardcore duty they'd be a capsuleer enlisted directly by a Navy or Company - but they're not.

So why worry so much about it? It just doesn't make sense to me. You get the option to be creative and design your own reasons why your character is a capsuleer freelancer, but that isn't good enough? You need an official stamp of approval from a faction smacked on your head in order to RP now?

I mean damn, if I really wanted to I could probably have Veik be one of the most CCP backed "Caldari loyalist" characters given her leadership position and involvement with certain dev chars but I don't, because I honestly, seriously could not give a fuck. Even the times others have asserted she's a representative of, or directly involved with KK she has flatly and outright denied that she is in any way at all.

Why?

Because her background is that she became a freelance capsuleer to become a Kaalakiota non-attributable deniable asset resource and competitive intelligence agent.

Not a bloody, "Caldari Loyalist" that needs approval and validation to do what she does.

Despite that this is still part of a massive derail from the intent of the OP, I have to say this is a pretty impressive post. It only helps solidify the nagging temptation for me to start playing Katrina a LOT more independent, rather than focusing on being a State shill even more.

[V. Gesakaarin]

I'd agree but the thing is Eve godmodes your character off the bat to be a freelance capsuleer, a free agent under CONCORD, hell you even get factional items clearly saying, "You are free from any and all obligations" as a capsuleer playing Eve Online. Why the hell then is there always so much concern and angst sometimes from people if they're "Loyal enough to be a loyalist"? If your character really wanted the cred, or was in it for the hardcore duty they'd be a capsuleer enlisted directly by a Navy or Company - but they're not.

So why worry so much about it? It just doesn't make sense to me. You get the option to be creative and design your own reasons why your character is a capsuleer freelancer, but that isn't good enough? You need an official stamp of approval from a faction smacked on your head in order to RP now?

I mean damn, if I really wanted to I could probably have Veik be one of the most CCP backed "Caldari loyalist" characters given her leadership position and involvement with certain dev chars but I don't, because I honestly, seriously could not give a fuck. Even the times others have asserted she's a representative of, or directly involved with KK she has flatly and outright denied that she is in any way at all.

Why?

Because her background is that she became a freelance capsuleer to become a Kaalakiota non-attributable deniable asset resource and competitive intelligence agent.

Not a bloody, "Caldari Loyalist" that needs approval and validation to do what she does.

Despite that this is still part of a massive derail from the intent of the OP, I have to say this is a pretty impressive post. It only helps solidify the nagging temptation for me to start playing Katrina a LOT more independent, rather than focusing on being a State shill even more.

To me it's a lot like do you prefer to be the statue to be admired from afar, or do you prefer to be the sculptor with their own creative vision, purpose, and desires?

One to me is the loyalist paradigm and the other is a human being.

[Lyn Farel]

I'd agree but the thing is Eve godmodes your character off the bat to be a freelance capsuleer, a free agent under CONCORD, hell you even get factional items clearly saying, "You are free from any and all obligations" as a capsuleer playing Eve Online. Why the hell then is there always so much concern and angst sometimes from people if they're "Loyal enough to be a loyalist"? If your character really wanted the cred, or was in it for the hardcore duty they'd be a capsuleer enlisted directly by a Navy or Company - but they're not.

So why worry so much about it? It just doesn't make sense to me. You get the option to be creative and design your own reasons why your character is a capsuleer freelancer, but that isn't good enough? You need an official stamp of approval from a faction smacked on your head in order to RP now?

I mean damn, if I really wanted to I could probably have Veik be one of the most CCP backed "Caldari loyalist" characters given her leadership position and involvement with certain dev chars but I don't, because I honestly, seriously could not give a fuck. Even the times others have asserted she's a representative of, or directly involved with KK she has flatly and outright denied that she is in any way at all.

Why?

Because her background is that she became a freelance capsuleer to become a Kaalakiota non-attributable deniable asset resource and competitive intelligence agent.

Not a bloody, "Caldari Loyalist" that needs approval and validation to do what she does.

Despite that this is still part of a massive derail from the intent of the OP, I have to say this is a pretty impressive post. It only helps solidify the nagging temptation for me to start playing Katrina a LOT more independent, rather than focusing on being a State shill even more.

Well that's part of what I told you in my first reply (wall of text), we all are playing freelances, so people pointing fingers that "U NO LOYALIST" might slightly look like hypocrites...

[Arista Shahni]

Any "Capsuleer Loyalist" has either chains of reason or roads of motive to do so.

... think about that.

[Vic Van Meter]

I think maybe the word "loyal" is being narrowed down to something that's very specific.  As an example, I would say that Constantin is a very loyal Amarrian.  He is exceptionally devoted to the religion, of course, but also to the government.  He still holds the people who ordained him and gave him his mandate in high regard and what he does, he does for what he sees as the greater good of the Empire.  In a way, he's up to his eyebrows in his own little Reclaiming, throwing himself passionately into his work.

With that said, not only is Constantin not known for high end pirate hunting or FW, he's also a VERY divisive figure in the church (at least that's how I've played him).  He's a multiculturalist who believes that the best way to bring the Word to the cluster is to also learn from them and let people outside the Empire have a hand in reading and translating Scripture.  His "diocese" is a loose confederation of believers and churches who he tends to curb the heretical excesses of, but otherwise tends to allow to do whatever they feel is right.  That means he sanctions Matari churches that weave Scriptural doctrine into pre-existing tribal customs.  He is constantly taking a somewhat left-leaning stance for his people, often bringing up the fallibility of some Holders and often supporting the inclusion of ideas and practices from outside the Empire that seem to work well.  For him, it works, though.  His ministry seems to be fairly effective and he's well liked even by a fair number of Matari and Gallente.

On that note, the last four attempts on his life weren't in the "dangerous" areas of his diocese, but in the actually dangerous area of the Amarr Empire itself.  His ministry divides people not just conservative and liberal, but on a fundamental fault line of whether the Amarr is a race of people defined by birth or a church of people defined by faith.  While he doesn't elicit a homicidal rage from anyone but the most insular Holders, he definitely has more Amarrian enemies than not.  His most wild supporters are there, too.  People either want him made a Metropolitan Bishop or Cardinal, or they want him defrocked and tried for heresy.  Part of the reason there's no motion on either front is how deeply controversial he is in the Empire itself.

All in all, though, he's a "loyal" Amarrian by the definition of the word.  The situation is just a lot more complicated than that...

[Korsavius]

I'd agree but the thing is Eve godmodes your character off the bat to be a freelance capsuleer, a free agent under CONCORD, hell you even get factional items clearly saying, "You are free from any and all obligations" as a capsuleer playing Eve Online. Why the hell then is there always so much concern and angst sometimes from people if they're "Loyal enough to be a loyalist"? If your character really wanted the cred, or was in it for the hardcore duty they'd be a capsuleer enlisted directly by a Navy or Company - but they're not.

So why worry so much about it? It just doesn't make sense to me. You get the option to be creative and design your own reasons why your character is a capsuleer freelancer, but that isn't good enough? You need an official stamp of approval from a faction smacked on your head in order to RP now?

I mean damn, if I really wanted to I could probably have Veik be one of the most CCP backed "Caldari loyalist" characters given her leadership position and involvement with certain dev chars but I don't, because I honestly, seriously could not give a fuck. Even the times others have asserted she's a representative of, or directly involved with KK she has flatly and outright denied that she is in any way at all.

Why?

Because her background is that she became a freelance capsuleer to become a Kaalakiota non-attributable deniable asset resource and competitive intelligence agent.

Not a bloody, "Caldari Loyalist" that needs approval and validation to do what she does.

I agree with the overall gist of this post. For example, much of what Kor does IC serves to benefit either Ishukone or the State or both; it should be noted he has no obligation whatsoever to do deeds that benefit such entities, he does what he does because he cares for the Caldari people and the Caldari State. However, what many people can't see (or fail to realize :insert leet sekrit biznis jpg here:) is that many of his actions contain one or more ulterior motives. Motives that further his own hidden agenda. I.E. yeah that anti-Provist rally in Malkalen? Yeah that had more purpose than to express distaste for the Heth regime.

As for the whole "loyalist" debacle, I think some people are making it a bigger deal than what it is. I view it as a mere label to help identify and connect with people, nothing more. I get the feeling that some people have an overwhelming fear of being labeled as such, when really it does not matter if you are or not. If you want your character to be considered as such, then cool. If not, then no need to get your panties tied in a knot over being considered one.