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[Sofia Roseburn]

Uh....

[Makoto Priano]

By that, I mean to say that the [citation needed] comment, while entertaining, is exactly the animus that causes FW-centric RPers to reject non-FW loyalists as frauds, which is what's been discussed for most of this thread. Of course, it's hilarious in its own right as pirate RPers have virtually no ability to demonstrate loyalty to their faction save :SANSHA: or :ANGEL: or such while doing the usual lowsec PvP, making it largely indistinguishable from any non-FW lowsec corp out there-- unless they're running missions in null, which, well.

Basically, RP-wise, so long as someone doesn't actively contradict lore or make nonsensical claims, we just have to roll with it.

[Sofia Roseburn]

Roleplaying is inherently action orientated (in a multitude of forms). Citation is required because there are many who have seen I-RED grow up and see nothing but action for personal profit rather than "for the State" as claimed. It's fair to say that if most of your "loyalism" is through back room dealings then very few people would know about that. Turning around and saying "well that proves it" just isn't the case.

As for "loyalism" I couldn't give a rats arse who or what people peg me as; partially because there's already massive bias towards certain "brands" of roleplay, and partially because people will label you based on personal feelings, not facts.

[Shiori]

Thread is delivering massive popcorn value, with added salt. I am genuinely confused as to what brought on this general bout of insecurity, though. Who's calling who disloyal, again?

[Makoto Priano]

Explain something for me. You are saying that you dislike the bias toward certain brands of roleplay, and that you dismiss people's tendency to label based on personal feeling instead of fact, at the very same time that you try to call out JFR on basis that you feel I-RED doesn't have any mechanism to establish its loyalty, and is just acting for purposes of personal profit. My apologies, but-- this seems a little bit hypocritical?

Yes, roleplaying is by definition action-oriented-- but if someone RPing Sansha pewpews in lowsec flying the Nation flag, surely someone RPing Ishukone pewpewing in nullsec flying the Ishukone flag warrants the same treatment?

Otherwise-- we have what? I-RED should all be running L4s for Ishu? The alliance would die of boredom in three months-- and I say this having run too many missions, myself. Come to Caldari live events? What, every four or five months when they happen, and endure more tidi and general derpiness than we get in Syndicate already? Does Shaktipat/TS-F run L4s in Stain all the time?

Nah. Let's just fly the flag and play how we like.

Shiori; I think it was general PYRE/I-RED backbiting in IGS a few weeks ago.

[Vic Van Meter]

Maybe I'm just adding fuel to the fire, but isn't the idea of shooting pirates ICly the same as FW?  I mean, one is against player characters, one is against NPCs, but in-game there isn't really a distinction between them.  Pirates have capsuleers as well.  Whatever your take on the gameplay and challenge of it all is, you'd think the government wouldn't really throw a fit because capsuleers are wasting their time shooting Guristas and Sansha raiders who don't really care about their space instead of entering their regulated CEWPA conflict.

The idea of separating PVP and PVE content seems like it's more of an OOC issue than an IC one.  You'd think loyal Caldari would be fighting the Feds and/or the pirates.  Hell, you could make the case that a freighter hauling equipment to Caldari fleets farther from their home system would be loyalists, or scientists trying to build better weapons for them.

On that note, you could go into the CEWPA zone to get paid or go out exploring for Sleeper sites out of a sense of loyalty.  It doesn't seem like we really have a good in-game way to measure loyalty.  That's all in characterization that gets handled in the actual playing of the character.

It's kind of like when someone plays a scientist who is supposed to be a genius.  You can say that, and you could have trained skills from when the game began and thus have a huge wellspring of knowledge.  However, if you can't play someone intelligent and you're constantly being outwitted at every turn, you can't really blame others for not taking the game statistics seriously.  Likewise, loyalty seems to be something you have to weave into your character play rather than something you can demonstrate with points or stuff.

Some of the most loyal people in history went down hated and disrespected by their own governments and plenty of people who were hugely supported by their governments until we peeled apart the history and found out they were terrible people who didn't give a damn about their country or causes.  It doesn't seem like we can measure a personality trait with statistical government approval.

[Katrina Oniseki]

Please don't argue, people.

Read the OP. This isn't about insecurity or doing it wrong. Its simply a discussion about how else to do loyalist stuff without FW or PvP. Nobody is doing it wrong, okay? There have been lots of great ideas presented already that are in the works on my end, so no need to be upset.

Also this has NOTHING to do with Pyre. Don't blame them. I simply saw a post on the IGS that got me thinking, ok?

Please everyone chill out

Edited for Formatting and typos because phones suck.

[Iwan Terpalen]

If faction warfare is a pointless Forever War, faction missions are a pointless Red Queen's Race - it takes all the running you can do just to get a few more megaISK, a forgettable blurb of text that you'll see repeated verbatim before the hour is over, and a quickly disappearing wreck field. Nothing else changes.

In fact, mechanically speaking, the less you talk to your agent, the fewer incursions you have to go and stop or crass misdeeds you're told to go avenge your faction will suffer~

Nah. Let's just fly the flag and play how we like.

This seems like a reasonable compromise.

Also this has NOTHING to do with Pyre. Don't blame them. I simply say a post that got me thinking ok?

You can blame us, it's okay! With the possible exception of our long-suffering diplomat, PYRE are generally horrible people in- and to some degree out- of character. The barometer at PYRE HQ, when pointed at this thread, reads "befuddled amusement (investigate for possible tear extraction)".

On the flip side, we ♥ I-RED. Enough to have loud and public IC spats with them!

[Desiderya]

Shiori; I think it was general PYRE/I-RED backbiting in IGS a few weeks ago.

I think it was some characters calling others stupid, then got their loyalities questioned in an attempt to paint one's actions as super honorubra, which lead to a bit of a cooling down in the relations. Seriously, I am quite puzzled how "You jumped willingly into a trap. This was not a tactical mistake, an ambush or tragedy but massively stupid."* transformed into "We Did It For The State! For Space Bushido! Thousand Achuran Vigirns Weep Over The Lost Souls! You Should Feel Ashamed For Questioning Their Sacrifice!
Can't really understand how this spawned this thread, as it was, at least to me, a very minor thing.

*Snark increased after being forced to repeat point multiple times. Bitch can be moody.

JFR, sans the bark in his post, has got it right. People claiming to be loyalists will be treated as such. 'Loyalist' isn't a club you get invited to, and it isn't a title that has to be earned, simply because everyone can call himself one (or come up with a story that makes him/her one). Reputation is earned and entirely dependant on the peer group.


edit: Sneaking another point in: Missions sure are a way to go. I'd be hesitant to raise its importance too much, as consequent application of math would lead to headachy numbers throughout the cluster, so it ought to be taken with a small industrial full of salt (PS: What about FW missions).

[Iwan Terpalen]

..Thousand Achuran Virgins..

Uh, boss. There cannot possibly be that many left, unless there's a new Achuran cultural rule that says "it doesn't count if you're covered in butter at the time" or something..

[Makoto Priano]

P.S. And <3 PYRE, too, even if the tear-extraction gives me a headache sometimes. 

So.

And yeah, re: the CONCORD sheep-to-slaughter thing, thank god Mak didn't have to wade into the thing with the line: "What's the greater duty? The duty to one's commander, or the duty to one's crew?" or some trite tripe like that.   

Anyway. Back to this.  Kat. I'm at work, and looking for something to counteract my boredom. Sorry if I got a bit feisty!

[Katrina Oniseki]

The IGS thread between myself and PYRE is unrelated to this one, Desi.

This was spawned by seeing Vikarion give a nod of respect to Stitcher because he served in FW, despite his current loyalties (which at the time were still in Reawakened Technologies). That wasn't bad, mind you, it was just something that got me thinking about what kind of lifetime membership card FW gives a character. This isn't something you guys did wrong... or anyone for that matter.

Edited for Formatting and typos because phones suck.

[Desiderya]

Well, we're full enough of ourselves that we consider it a fact that we never do anything wrong. 

I've missed a word in my post, I was 'initially' wondering about the origins of this thread. My pardons, you've clarified it somewhat earlier in this threadnought.

[John Revenent]

JFR, sans the bark in his post, has got it right. People claiming to be loyalists will be treated as such. 'Loyalist' isn't a club you get invited to, and it isn't a title that has to be earned, simply because everyone can call himself one (or come up with a story that makes him/her one). Reputation is earned and entirely dependant on the peer group.

Thank you. I apologies if I came off as rude it was not the intention. As for Sofia's watching us grow. That is purely our OOC side of dick swinging that comes with the territory called Syndicate via Failheap Forums (Mainly making fun of myself, or derping fleets for the amusement of others).

Syndicate has value to Ishukone, or they wouldn't have multiplie stations there. But I am sure everyone knows this.

[Erys Charantes]

I pretty much agree with Des earlier post regarding 'Loyalist' as being a self proclaimed title that others accept.  My only comment would be that my own observations bear out that most any standard of 'proof', be it standings, or metrics, is typically ignored on a whim over the smallest disagreements, or just because it's convenient.  The difference between story driven conflict and pointless drama is a thin one, in pretty much any MMORP scene, and the latter rarely results in anything enjoyable.