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[Katrina Oniseki]

TL;DR
I want to make some visible displays of loyalty to the State IC. What can I do?

New OP so people understand what I'm looking for.

I'd like to make some visible 'loyalist' actions that help the Caldari State, without joining Faction Warfare. I would like to do some good for the State from my limited position and playing ability. I can't do PvP even with I-RED, never mind FW even if I could join the militia. Which I can't.

Producing ships and modules for the FW buddies in the RP scene seems like an idea, but unless I have perfect skills and run a POs and the whole nine yards, it's going to be producing at a loss - or it's going to be overpricing the end result. I don't really want to actually just sink ISK at a net loss... unless that's a good idea?

As for events, I wouldn't really know what events to host even if people would attend them. Is talking on a podium really something that is 'loyalist'?

Should I poast moar on the IGS in support of the State? More lip service?

Someone suggested I just fly up and shoot Gallentes in the warzone. I-RED has done that from time to time, even defending Liandri's POS which ended up touching off the famous Battle of Asakai. Such isolated incidents don't get much attention though on the RP front, as it's just seen as I-RED doing PvP. So scheduling some of my alliance to run a fleet up there may not work well.

So what can I do that is all super loyalist and much Caldari, very State, wow, amaze?

[spoiler=Original OP]Okay, I saw recently that Vikarion publicly vouched for Verin Hakatain, an outspoken Liberal, because he had fought in Faction Warfare. That made me wonder, is that what it would take for Katrina to gain some sort of 'honoure'? Because, if so, that is disheartening. I want to do something to put the wind back in my sails again for the Caldari scene, so I'm asking this for myself, and a lot of other people out there who can't or simply don't want to use Faction Warfare as a method of being a Loyalist.

In my particular case, I refuse to drop my corp (RDC) and join FW, and a vast majority of our carefully and painstakingly built alliance (I-RED) do not want to join FW either. John has been a very close and supportive friend of mine for a very long time, and I've worked hard to develop my place in I-RED. I don't want to toss that away for the sake of roleplay. Faction Warfare is not an option for Katrina unless it becomes an option for I-RED.

So, what can I reasonably do to help 'boost my standings' with the FW roleplayers who so frequently ask what have I done for the State?

I have tried to use Live Events, but between them being horribly jumbled messes that are useless or damaging to any character that joins up in them; and the dramatic misunderstandings that resulted from my attempt at Caldari Prime*, I've learned that they aren't an option for 'being Caldari'. They certainly aren't a reliable one, even if they are an option at all.

Industry seems to be a very very tough market to get into. The only way market antics would get noticed is if I was very good at it, or someone who was already a FW fighter decided to start publicly buying my stuff. Or if I just sunk my ISK into producing things at a loss for the sake of RP, which is an option.. though a bitter pill to swallow, and could be taken as buying my way into good graces.

Roleplay events don't seem like they would be a good option for me to host right now, as Katrina has fallen into poor standings with many other Caldari for being I-RED and Liberal and her own self. She's not in a place to be hosting anything.

I'm not sure how to work on this. So, what things can I do as a player to improve my Caldari character's standing with other Caldari? Is there anything that can be done, or ought I just stay the course and be the strange Liberal Caldari?

* - The Caldari Prime event was a huge mess for me. My mail to other roleplayers had a mention about not knowing what this would entail, and then a clarification in the OOC brackets about possibly shooting the Titan, because I wasn't sure if CCP was going to turn it into some evil Heth doomsday machine that was going to kill billions of innocent civilians on Caldari Prime.

She did admit later to Pieter who, for some reason asked her about it IC, that if she had to stop the Titan from destroying the entire planet she would. Unfortunately, it was mistaken as Katrina saying she was going to shoot the Titan. Apparently, it's become so oft repeated that it's just common assumption that this is what she said. I'm willing to live with this, but it shows that I've seriously screwed up Katrina's standing as a Caldari.

[/spoiler]

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Honestly, I think there's an easy way and a hard way to achieve the status in which you're accepted as loyalist (of any kind I think):

First, the easy way: Buddy up with those in the community that are regarded as loyalists. Spend time with them, do stuff with them. You don't like what they do? At least don't voice that opinion, but best get over yourself and join in. Congratulate others on how great they are for doing the stuff they do, regardless of whether you like it or no. Do the ridiculous initiation rites. This usually will get you into an in-group. You can kick downward, but you have to please those that are better established then you are. If you play smart and have someone who's in the upper echelons to keep your butt safe, you can get away with hurting feelings of a few people top of you, maybe. Ofc. that makes you dependant on the backing of said buddy.

Second, the hard way: Build up a community of loyalists yourself. Make clear that you regard yourselves as loyalists, show how you understand being a loyalists, define what it means to be a loyalist. Be a loyalist. If you get enough traction, your movement will get big enough so that others will be unable to ignore it. You have to be willing to confront the established loyalists, though and there will be conflict in the process. And therefore, there's no guarantee that it will be a success. You might also get accused of splitting the loyalist community.

I just recently saw a documentary on DMAX on biker gangs and it is interesting how similar being recognized as 'loyalist' or some such in EVE is to their rather childish games (or at least they were represented as such). It made me realize that I might have had a much easier life in EVE if I didn't try so hard to be recognized as Amarr loyalist on many occasions and that I did some quite stupid things for that, which really diminished the fun in the game for me.

As of now I have a corp of Amarr loyalists that aren't doing any FW or such. (I think I have been mainly lucky that there were enough great Amarr carebears around for that to happen that were willing to join as they looked themselves for that thing. A great thanks to my corpies here, you're amazing and make a great corp!) What I also noticed though is how much more I enjoy being in a corp that is casual about things and does great stuff than working my ass off for any kind of 'loyalist cred'. 

And tbh, this realization helped with getting some of such cred in the end, as I came to the point where I stopped to feel like I need to prove that I'm a loyalist, but are simply content to laugh at someone claiming that I'm not and write him off as not important for me.

[Katrina Oniseki]

Your first option is join FW.

Your second option is continue being I-RED and challenge the others, which is what I've done for a long time.

I'm looking for a middle ground, something else I can do. Something to throw them a bone, do something -they- think is good, rather than constantly challenge them as a 'Liberal'.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Honestly, I don't think they won't let you get away with something cheap like throwing them a bone. There is no middle ground, that's not how in-groups work. They do work by expressly excluding those in the middle ground. Hey, you can join Stitcher on his crusade against the Amarr on the IGS, that will certainly get you some creds in his book, at least.

[Katrina Oniseki]

So your advice is join them or fight them? There's no working with the other side?

[Nicoletta Mithra]

You'll at least have to fight them until they are forced to grudgingly accept you as loyalist regardless of their own wishes not to do so, unless you join them on their conditions. Yah. In-groups are based on inclusion of those that are 'in', through exclusion of those that are 'out'.

Once you forced them to accept you, you can work on starting to work with them.

[V. Gesakaarin]

I've never tried being a loyalist anything with my characters. It just seems to lead to some sort of weird clique consensus thing. They just have their own beliefs, agendas, and plans.

That and I've always hated the term loyalist as it applies to Eve. It's a term that I certainly don't try to use because it just leads to very black and white rp that removes a lot of the complexity and the grey area that makes things fun. It's like, "Oh, you're only a loyalist if you do abc and xyz, and the only legitimacy to it is because all these other people agree."

I'd rather have fun and be an iconoclast than get stuck in that trap.

[Katrina Oniseki]

Keep in mind, the purpose of this thread is to help me find ideas of what sorts of things I can do that would be a visible IC loyalist move. I'm asking for actual things to do. Actions. Events. Playstyles. Roleplay. I'm not asking for advice on whether or not I will be accepted or what the outcome will be. I'm also not asking for validation or opinions on how Caldari she is.

I'm just looking for ideas on specific things to do. Because I'm kind of bored, and I want to get the loyalist Caldari RP ball rolling again.

EDIT: To that end, I am going to reword my OP completely and put the original OP in a spoiler tag.

[V. Gesakaarin]

Define a set of agendas to pursue and then pursue them?

[Matariki Rain]

Think about whether you want to:
(a) make displays of loyalty to the State,
(b) show what a good Caldari you are, or
(c) have good responses when others who fight for the Caldari in Faction War challenge you.

Despite Heth's attempts to sell the idea that being a good Caldari means being loyal to the State over all, my impression is that that's largely PR spin to whip up nationalist fervor and undermine the megas. Go read Svetlana's articles about being Caldari, think about what it actually means to Kat, and plan something that fits into Kat's own model of what it means to be Caldari.

Is Kat a Wayist? Even a secular/cultural Wayist? Then get out there and get people talking about that, and how it affects their choices and their aspirations.

Use her resources to patronise Caldari cultural arts: sponsor tea blending or tea ceremonies, or find ways to use Mindclash as a metaphor for Caldari-ness.

Start the Caldari equivalent of a Rotary or Lions' club for people in business (not sure of US equivalents: non-aligned business fellowships that network and do voluntary work together).

Pick a business goal and work to achieve it.

[Erys Charantes]

In every past MMO RP experience I've had, acceptance is as much a part of the group as it is by anyone's actions.  If they want someone to be a part of things, they'll concoct whatever excuses to make it happen.  If not, then the opposite is true.  Suppose that's why I don't attach to any particular group, but rather individuals...  I get tired of the popularity games in short order.

[Katrina Oniseki]

Is Kat a Wayist? Even a secular/cultural Wayist? Then get out there and get people talking about that, and how it affects their choices and their aspirations.

Use her resources to patronise Caldari cultural arts: sponsor tea blending or tea ceremonies, or find ways to use Mindclash as a metaphor for Caldari-ness.

Start the Caldari equivalent of a Rotary or Lions' club for people in business (not sure of US equivalents: non-aligned business fellowships that network and do voluntary work together).

Awesome ideas. I will definitely look into these.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

I'd suggest you think a bit about how Kat would try to support the State (or her corp, I think that's quite loyalist a thing to do in the State), that you can do.

And why not RP events? I'd suggest, honestly, to do something that includes other factions. it's always good to make a show to them as well that you're of the State, if you want to make that clear. E.g. Nico wouldn't recognize Stitcher as a State loyalist, but a rambling, half-tribal independent capsuleer. He has some cred with the Caldari, but to her it's not because he's such a great and loyal Caldari, but because he still has some ol' buddies there. From Nico's perspective at least Kat or Pieter or Veik are much more proper 'Caldari loyalists' - for whatever that's worth.

In the end, if you are merely getting recognized as doing loyalist stuff by the loyalists themselves, it's imho as Veik said. That's usually why I don't run around and use the loyalist term either. I don't see much point in the "Oh, you're only a loyalist if you do abc and xyz, and the only legitimacy to it is because all these other people agree." as well.

Do an event to better relations with the Amarr, or whomever else, really. Like, ask SFRIM to do an event to train Caldari in cross-cultural competence to make better profits on the Amarrian market. (Some seem to need that (; ) Do a tea party for people interested in Caldari culture. Do a tea party for Caldari. To get the Caldari RP ball rolling, do RP - and why not an event?

[Esna Pitoojee]

Admittedly I am speaking as an outsider here, but I have not heard any of this business about Katrina saying she was going to shoot the titan. Never in a discussion with any other Caldari has it come up. I'd heard about it OOC, and I sort of naturally presumed it to be under the circumstances you described (i.e., if the titan initiated a countdown-to-firing or something like that).

Second: You seem to be looking for some kind of a middle ground that involves interacting with Caldari FW loyalists*, but not actually joining FW.

So - with that said, let's look at business stuff. What can I-RED provide that they need? I don't know a ton about what I-RED does - like, if you have a big industry wing - but can you build some of the larger hulls they need at a discount price? Or what about the Condors I always hear complained about - could a bulk-purchase discount be applied? Understand that at a certain point, these are things that with discounts factored in you may not be earning much if any ISK on - but would be earning RPcred instead.

At a certain point you may also need to accept that actual, ingame-tradable items are not the way to go; I-RED and where the rest of the Caldari RPers sit (seems to be FacWar) may be to separate mechanically and geographically for you to have really tight connections. Barring this, instead, perhaps some other nontangible IC resource could be exchanged?


*I say FW loyalists because that seems to be who you're referring to. Please correct if wrong.


HYPEREDIT: Okay, reading the reworded OP, I'm increasingly feeling an intangible resource trade of some kind is what you're looking for. Others seem to be coming to the same conclusion.

[Katrina Oniseki]

Thanks for all the replies! Good stuff here.

I'm gonna get some sleep and think on some ideas and get back to the thread tomorrow. Keep the ideas coming! Will let you all know if I come up with a new RP thingy for Caldari goodness.