Backstage - OOC Forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

that the Minmatar military specifically recruits hardened criminals for service in its elite Valklear units, and that many of the Republic's most senior officers were originally recruited in this way?

Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5

Author Topic: Feds and Heth downfall?  (Read 10802 times)

Vikarion

  • Guest
Re: Feds and Heth downfall?
« Reply #45 on: 25 Oct 2013, 19:37 »

My husband had an intersting view that theCaldari are far more "American" - albeit dystopian advanced - than the Gallente - specifically in that "megacorps" run everything, and are considered "living entities" and "persons".

That has always been my perception, as well.
Logged

Seriphyn

  • Demigod
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2118
  • New and improved, and only in FFXIV
Re: Feds and Heth downfall?
« Reply #46 on: 25 Oct 2013, 20:14 »

My husband had an intersting view that theCaldari are far more "American" - albeit dystopian advanced - than the Gallente - specifically in that "megacorps" run everything, and are considered "living entities" and "persons".

That has always been my perception, as well.

I doubt I'd ever understand this.

I don't even need to go into detail as to why, because it's pretty obvious, if we were to compare US-Gallente and US-Caldari. Seems to be a fallback when individuals do not adequately know enough about non-US cultures to see the more accurate comparisons for the Caldari.

Of course, I will always advocate as far a removal as possible from RL anyway.
Logged

Vikarion

  • Guest
Re: Feds and Heth downfall?
« Reply #47 on: 25 Oct 2013, 20:25 »

I doubt I'd ever understand this.

I don't even need to go into detail as to why, because it's pretty obvious, if we were to compare US-Gallente and US-Caldari. Seems to be a fallback when individuals do not adequately know enough about non-US cultures to see the more accurate comparisons for the Caldari.

Of course, I will always advocate as far a removal as possible from RL anyway.

Do you actually have any reasons, or is this your standard line of "others are doing it wrong because they are ignorant xenophobes"?
« Last Edit: 25 Oct 2013, 20:34 by Vikarion »
Logged

Pieter Tuulinen

  • Tacklebitch
  • Pod Captain
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 662
Re: Feds and Heth downfall?
« Reply #48 on: 25 Oct 2013, 20:35 »

Because the Caldari guarantee a basic standard of living and rights for all employees. They abhor the adoption of shiny status symbols. They have a lot more social mobility than the US. They have universal healthcare.
Logged

Vikarion

  • Guest
Re: Feds and Heth downfall?
« Reply #49 on: 25 Oct 2013, 20:42 »

Because the Caldari guarantee a basic standard of living and rights for all employees. They abhor the adoption of shiny status symbols. They have a lot more social mobility than the US. They have universal healthcare.

They also can fire an employee for any reason, the unemployed have nothing and are considered to barely be people, and the health care is only for those employed by a mega. The Corporations control what they see on the news, the products they buy, and set working conditions.
Logged

orange

  • Dex 1.0
  • Veteran
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1930
Re: Feds and Heth downfall?
« Reply #50 on: 25 Oct 2013, 20:49 »

(Caldari) have a lot more social mobility than the US.

lol what?
Logged

Aria Jenneth

  • Veteran
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1124
Re: Feds and Heth downfall?
« Reply #51 on: 26 Oct 2013, 00:07 »

Uh... Besides the structure of the government that might be inspired of it, the Fed is hardly like France at all, except in the naming flavour... France is a super centralized society and still retains a lot of its Gaullist mindset and Bonapartist administrative structure. It's also hardly a melting pot of cultures where culture is actually enforced and stenghtened by various old national bodies whose sole purpose is the preservation of the language, culture, etc.

Really, it's closer to the US, without being a mirror of the US (fortunately...).

Also there are undercurrents of anti-immigrant sentiments almost everywhere anyway. France is like any other.

Art imitating, yeah, sure, but copycats... bleh.

Eh-- fair enough. I suggested France largely because the U.S. doesn't really have a dominant national ethnicity (it does have a diminishingly dominant demographic, but it's "of European descent," not "Irish," for instance). The U.S. is a nation of immigrants in which each wave ends up complaining about the next wave; the Gallente Federation has had fewer immigrants, it seems, than planetary inductees, and the ethnic Gallente have something closely resembling a lock on power, such as it is.

But, I suppose it's really more U.S. -ish.


------------


Folks, the Caldari aren't American. I mean, they really, really aren't. People worry that we're headed towards a cyberpunk-style corporate dystopia, but even if we actually got there it wouldn't look like the Caldari State. The Caldari megacorps aren't a bunch of amoral business ventures running roughshod over a weakened government; they are the government, and the Caldari culture is set up in a way that's far more lockstep-organized than anything America has produced to date.

We like to think of ourselves as a nation of rugged individualists, which is somewhat a fiction, but we're certainly individualistic. The Caldari aren't, even a little bit. If I read the demographics article correctly, they often live in dormatories up until they settle down in a company-arranged marriage. A person has no legal existence outside of corporate citizenship. With only rare exceptions, corporate identity is personal identity. On the flip side, the corporations also seem to be expected to look after their minions.

That's painfully far from not only contemporary American attitudes, but from anyplace we're likely to head in the next thousand years, absent a new dark age.
Logged

Aria Jenneth

  • Veteran
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1124
Re: Feds and Heth downfall?
« Reply #52 on: 26 Oct 2013, 00:13 »

(Caldari) have a lot more social mobility than the US.

lol what?

It's actually possible. Social mobility in the U.S. has nose-dived lately; there are swaths of Europe that are ahead of us in that respect.

The State's a meritocracy, so, in principle, people should be promoted according to their abilities more than their origins. There's of course the unreachable "CEO" caste, but I'd compare that to being a Kennedy or a Bush. Mind you, as in the U.S., a lot probably depends on whether the meritocracy is working as intended. With Heth's recent reforms, Caldari social mobility is likely pretty good.
Logged

Vikarion

  • Guest
Re: Feds and Heth downfall?
« Reply #53 on: 26 Oct 2013, 01:02 »

Folks, the Caldari aren't American. I mean, they really, really aren't. People worry that we're headed towards a cyberpunk-style corporate dystopia, but even if we actually got there it wouldn't look like the Caldari State. The Caldari megacorps aren't a bunch of amoral business ventures running roughshod over a weakened government; they are the government, and the Caldari culture is set up in a way that's far more lockstep-organized than anything America has produced to date.

We like to think of ourselves as a nation of rugged individualists, which is somewhat a fiction, but we're certainly individualistic. The Caldari aren't, even a little bit. If I read the demographics article correctly, they often live in dormatories up until they settle down in a company-arranged marriage. A person has no legal existence outside of corporate citizenship. With only rare exceptions, corporate identity is personal identity. On the flip side, the corporations also seem to be expected to look after their minions.

That's painfully far from not only contemporary American attitudes, but from anyplace we're likely to head in the next thousand years, absent a new dark age.

This may be true where you live. It is not necessarily true over much of America. But that wasn't really what was said.

What was said is that America is closer to the Caldari State than it is to the Gallente Federation. If all factors are taken into account, I think that's at least partly true. And while it is true that Americans do not closely tie themselves to particular corporations in terms of lifetime employment (that has essentially gone out of fashion in most of the world), Americans are more invested into the idea of your work defining you more than most other countries.

Also, out of the industrialized countries, Americans tend to lead the pack in terms of fewest vacation days taken and most days/hours worked. It fluctuates, but in terms of focus on work, Americans appear to be some of the least hedonist, most workaholic people on the planet.

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2013-08-20/news/bs-ed-schaller-vacation-20130820_1_vacation-time-paid-vacation-days-u-s-workers

Americans are also more likely to be accepting of their situation and their prospects, even though other countries tend to actually provide better security for the average citizen:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/13291/americans-really-abject-workaholics.aspx

...and although the productivity of the American worker keeps rising, making us one of the most productive-per-worker countries in the world, American wages have stagnated.

Apparently we are greedy, rugged individualists right up to the point that we might actually have to go up against the company.  :P

Incidentally, if I may so venture, I tend to think that the GalFed is more like a centralized, stronger version of the EU.
« Last Edit: 26 Oct 2013, 01:05 by Vikarion »
Logged

Caellach Marellus

  • CONCORD Poster Boy.
  • Omelette
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 332
  • Beware of Geeks bearing GIFs.
    • The Goblin's Cave
Re: Feds and Heth downfall?
« Reply #54 on: 26 Oct 2013, 03:21 »

It's like saying any of the cultures of Modern earth resemble that of the first Homo sapiens to emerge out of Africa. Except on a longer timescale.

To be fair, we still bash each other over the heads with a giant rock if we find someone else has resources we want.

The rock just got bigger and more sophisticated over time.
Logged
"I blame society for anything I've said that you disagree with."

Lyn Farel

  • Guest
Re: Feds and Heth downfall?
« Reply #55 on: 26 Oct 2013, 04:50 »

I think that when CCP envisioned France as the ancestry of the Gallente, they were thinking of the artistic/fashion minded stereotype that comes with several subcultures commonly considered Parisian, then crossing that with the historically liberal "freedom!" esque actions of the populace during key moments in history. English occupation, French Revolution and WW2 occupation all spring to mind.

It's extremely stereotyping but that's pretty much how I understood the atypical French part of the cultural influence, the rest is ideally western liberal culture underlined with an exceptionally paranoid and big brother esque surveillance centric Government, controlling through subterfuge and media, occasionally crossing the two.

Same.


I think that when CCP envisioned France as the ancestry of the Gallente, they were thinking of the artistic/fashion minded stereotype that comes with several subcultures commonly considered Parisian, then crossing that with the historically liberal "freedom!" esque actions of the populace during key moments in history. English occupation, French Revolution and WW2 occupation all spring to mind.

It's extremely stereotyping but that's pretty much how I understood the atypical French part of the cultural influence, the rest is ideally western liberal culture underlined with an exceptionally paranoid and big brother esque surveillance centric Government, controlling through subterfuge and media, occasionally crossing the two.

Side topic, but I've never really understood the whole Gallente are Space French (or Space America) bit. Yes, I know what the lore states - but doesn't it also state they were colonists from Tau Ceti for centuries if not millennia before migrating through the EVE gate? So .. France (? 30 thousand years ago) --> Tau Ceti (25-30 thousand years ago) --> New Eden --> then a dark age after the EVE gate collapses and then et voila! Still space French?!?

It's like saying any of the cultures of Modern earth resemble that of the first Homo sapiens to emerge out of Africa. Except on a longer timescale.

Anyway, returning you to the regular programming.

That's why they removed most PF references to space french afaik.

Uh... Besides the structure of the government that might be inspired of it, the Fed is hardly like France at all, except in the naming flavour... France is a super centralized society and still retains a lot of its Gaullist mindset and Bonapartist administrative structure. It's also hardly a melting pot of cultures where culture is actually enforced and stenghtened by various old national bodies whose sole purpose is the preservation of the language, culture, etc.

Really, it's closer to the US, without being a mirror of the US (fortunately...).

Also there are undercurrents of anti-immigrant sentiments almost everywhere anyway. France is like any other.

Art imitating, yeah, sure, but copycats... bleh.

Eh-- fair enough. I suggested France largely because the U.S. doesn't really have a dominant national ethnicity (it does have a diminishingly dominant demographic, but it's "of European descent," not "Irish," for instance). The U.S. is a nation of immigrants in which each wave ends up complaining about the next wave; the Gallente Federation has had fewer immigrants, it seems, than planetary inductees, and the ethnic Gallente have something closely resembling a lock on power, such as it is.

But, I suppose it's really more U.S. -ish.

But that's the thing isn't it ? The Federation have around 35% native gallente (followed by 33% minmatar or something, too lazy to check the demographics article...). France has 11% immigrants, from which 7,5% are non EU originated. The 89% rest is still more or less pure french. And the country still positions itself 6th in the world (the US are first and have 43M, which is around 15%).

I doubt that we can find RL examples of demographics like the Federation has. Though the US can be closer if we considered their descent dating back to the first settlers and waves of immigrants.
« Last Edit: 26 Oct 2013, 09:35 by Lyn Farel »
Logged

Aria Jenneth

  • Veteran
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1124
Re: Feds and Heth downfall?
« Reply #56 on: 26 Oct 2013, 09:19 »

Lyn:

Hm. Point. ... Possibly the EU, if it went so far as to become a nation, itself? And went, somehow, very libertarian and very ergonomics-friendly all at once?


Vikarion:

Ah, how to highlight this....

As you might or might not already know, my wife and I worked as English teachers in Korea for a year. The worthy gent who ran the academy we worked at was a Samsung executive, and highly successful in essentially all aspects of his life except for ... the academy. It had been his wife's, originally, and he had taken over her successful school when she had a nervous breakdown. He was slowly running it into the ground. He tended to take his life-lessons from his time at Samsung and assume that they applied equally well to an educational setting, rendering him essentially a Korean PHB (pointy-haired boss, ala "Dilbert").

I was head teacher there for several months, which meant nightly meetings with the boss-- and a regular earful of his questions and opinions.

One of the things I most remember about the boss was how much he hated working with English-speaking Westerners. American, Canadian, British, Aussie, Kiwi, didn't matter: he really didn't get us at all. To him, we were cold and mercenary to the point of treachery; we did the job, and only the job, and resented anything that asked us to go above and beyond the call (especially, anything we weren't "on the clock" for). He felt that our employment should produce a bond of loyalty, that we should be delighted to come to his mandatory Christmas party (on Christmas morning-- actually it turned out to be quite an event to remember, so we only really resented it ahead of time), that we should be inspired to throw our very souls into our work. It was what we were, what we'd signed on not only to do, but to be: teachers at his school.

He viewed a couple of teachers who bailed out on us (via plane ticket home) as flat-out traitors; their names became bywords for treason, along the lines of "Quisling" or "Hnolku." I'd have found this understandable for the first month or two, maybe, but the boss dwelled on it, still holding it as a personal affront months after the fact.

To us, he was a petty tyrant who thought our employment contracts extended to pretty much all aspects of our lives. The Korean teachers, however, pretty much took it in stride (though some of his lousy management decisions were another matter).

A good indicator of the difference in attitude was on the subject of morale. The boss considered morale essentially irrelevant. Text of actual conversation from a time when even the best of our teachers were refusing to do any substantial out-of-classroom work (leaving me, as head teacher, holding the bag) and treating the administration with scathing contempt:

Me: "[Boss], we've got a problem with morale."

Boss: "Eeeh. All my time at Samsung, I have seen this. Sixty percent always discontented. If they want to go, they can go."

Me: "Well, what about one hundred percent?"

Boss: "One hundred percent always discontented about something."

... and he would hear no more of it.

That's probably a better guide to the attitudes of a successful Korean businessman failing at being an educator than to the attitudes of successful Korean educators, of course.

On the other hand, he was also running a charitable foundation, trying to ease some of the suffering in North Korea. He was having serious trouble getting donations from other Koreans, and he found the more charitable habits of Americans very confusing considering that he thought we were a pack of mercenaries. A lot of his questions focused on that.

Vikarion, I do recognize that Americans are hard workers and will often set aside personal qualms, etc., to be good members of the team-- but I tend to attribute that mostly to not wanting to get stuck looking for work. Middle and working class wages haven't been stagnating with the consent of the middle and working class; they've been stagnating regardless of worker complaints, and the middle and working class have lacked the leverage to reverse the trend. It's service to a group for the sake of the individual versus service to a group, for the sake of the group, which then looks after the individual.

The difference I'm pointing to is a bone-deep cultural distinction. It goes beyond my old boss's miserable managerial style as applied to a school; this is stuff his wife, also, had to struggle with. It's a basic difference in the framework behind all sorts of moral or category judgments. It's cultural, and it's difficult to overestimate how deep it goes.

The U.S. and Gallente Federations are two different nations (and one is fictitious), but the Gallente essentially share values we recognize (rights, separation of powers, yadda yadda). Dial back that desperate American productivity a bit, and you've got something pretty consistent with our cultural principles-- up to and including getting up in the business of more authoritarian sorts.

The Caldari function more like an East Asian mulligan (with European faces) wholly ruled by a coalition of zaibatsu.

The U.S. may see corporate power on the rise, but we broadly recognize that as a corruption of our system and society. The Caldari, on the other hand, trust a group of corporations to have their best interests at heart.

There's a shortage of sane Americans who will do any such thing, and for good reason: we understand our corporations to be profit-seeking financial ventures first and last, to which we generally owe no more than we are paid for. The Caldari corporation-as-custodian (or nation, or even family) thing is alien to us.
« Last Edit: 26 Oct 2013, 09:22 by Aria Jenneth »
Logged

Lyn Farel

  • Guest
Re: Feds and Heth downfall?
« Reply #57 on: 26 Oct 2013, 09:43 »

Lyn:

Hm. Point. ... Possibly the EU, if it went so far as to become a nation, itself? And went, somehow, very libertarian and very ergonomics-friendly all at once?

Probably... Though the Federation is already hardly a Nation, just a charter signed by millions of planetary/space states.

The main difference between the EU and the Federation atm is that firstly, citizens directly vote for their president in the Federation (thanks to Duvailer), while in the EU they just vote for their european deputies, and secondly, that the Federation is also a strong entity with a full capable military and executive power, which the EU mostly lacks currently, even with the growing presence of the Eurocorps.

With that in mind, maybe that the Fed could be considered like a future version of the EU yeah, structure wise as well as economically wise.
« Last Edit: 26 Oct 2013, 09:45 by Lyn Farel »
Logged

orange

  • Dex 1.0
  • Veteran
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1930
Re: Feds and Heth downfall?
« Reply #58 on: 26 Oct 2013, 10:48 »

(Caldari) have a lot more social mobility than the US.

lol what?

It's actually possible. Social mobility in the U.S. has nose-dived lately; there are swaths of Europe that are ahead of us in that respect.

The State's a meritocracy, so, in principle, people should be promoted according to their abilities more than their origins. There's of course the unreachable "CEO" caste, but I'd compare that to being a Kennedy or a Bush. Mind you, as in the U.S., a lot probably depends on whether the meritocracy is working as intended. With Heth's recent reforms, Caldari social mobility is likely pretty good.

I suppose we have to first define what social mobility is.  I read it as the ability for one generation to be better off than the last vs where a person is today in comparison to 5 or 10 years ago.

To continue the "CEO caste" example: Obama, Clinton, Reagan, Carter, Ford, Nixon, Johnson, Eisenhower, Truman (75% of modern Presidents) come from what I would argue are humble, if not austere, beginnings.

I agree there are countries in Europe where the difference between their poorest and richest is much lower, but is there any difference in mobility?

For the Caldari State, even in when everything is working "right," there is still a career pyramid.  In addition, unlike in say the US or Europe, that pyramid is more rigid.  In the US or Europe, it is possible to create your own pyramid (form a company or organization) and as your pyramid rises, so does your social class.  I do not think it is straight-forward in the functioning meritocracy State to create new companies or organizations.

The individual in the State must rise through the ranks, directly competing against everyone around them for the fewer and fewer positions as you climb the corporate ladder.  There is no room for 2nd best and they do not advance beyond the position they are in.  If it is cyclical, they may get lucky and be #1 in the next cycle or they may run into a "fast burner" - someone so damn good that they get promoted first opportunity they get.   This also creates the problem of promotion to the point of incompetence, where an individual gets promoted into a role they are simply not good at because they were really good at the role they were in.

Thus, I disagree with the idea that there is more social mobility in the State than in the US or EU.
Logged

Aria Jenneth

  • Veteran
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1124
Re: Feds and Heth downfall?
« Reply #59 on: 26 Oct 2013, 11:01 »

orange:

I read "social mobility" to be pretty much this.

Note the country comparison.

I'm not saying that social mobility in the Caldari State is higher than it is in the U.S. (much less the E.U.); we have only limited data and the fact that Heth's reforms occurred.

I'm saying that the idea's not laugh-worthy. That's all.
Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5