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[Lyn Farel]

Oh, I am pretty sure we already had a thread about how understandable it was to see people refer to science laws (Occam's Razor, Newtonian physics, etc) by their name based on their RL inventor to make up for the lack of any better eve-ish substitute. Some said whatever anyway, we already speak english and they sure don't speak english in New Eden. Some others said they try to avoid it as much as they can. Among other answers.

Now then, it was about general/universal concepts that pervades everything and everyone in the universe, but now the question i'm asking is where do you draw the line for more common commodities or stuff that can be very regional ?

How would you consider someone using a RL famous name ? How would you consider someone using RL references to a type of tool, like for example, using the word taser instead of electrogun or electrochoc weapon, or Champagne instead of sparkling wine ? What is your take on names that are mostly referenced by their brand name instead of their true common name ?

Another similar thing : I recently saw people speaking about Chardonnay on the IGS (the type of grape), an example among many, and I have to admit that it sounded rather weird. The kind to break a little the suspension of disbelief, or immersion... Not sure what to think of it though.

Can you speak about grapes freely since it's a very generic name encompassing a lot of species, but can you also refer to very specific kinds of species endemic to... Earth ?

[orange]

I think it all gets back to effectively communicating between players.

Taking the example of Chardonnay, if someone substituted Shadony for the term Chardonnay and then has to explain to everyone that Shadony is the Udorian version of Chardonnay and is used in the production of popular Amarrian wines, does it equally break immersion?

Perhaps for the non-Amarrian character it makes sense, almost like future versions of Google Now in text streams.  Taking the example of Newtonian physics, each major civilization would have its own originator for those concepts and the autotranslate would automatically substitute for the receiver the information in a format they need.

Player A > On my estates I grow Shadony (Udorian grapes used in the making of popular Amarrian wines), which I largely sell.  Only a small portion are used to produce my own unique wine.
Player G > Oh? Are they similar to Chathon (Miesien grapes used to make popular Gallente wines)?
Player A > Perhaps, I have not seen any genetic comparisons, but I doubt they can be related being from such distant worlds.
Player G > I dunno, have you seen the theories of common origin?
...

[Gesakaarin]

"I'm drinking a fine Kithestran red wine from my estates in Tash-Murkon"
"Oh, what does that taste like?"
"Well.."
"Yes?"
"I guess it tastes like a shiraz viognon ;_;"

The point here for me is that there's certain words/turns of phrase that carry specific meaning or connotation to me. For example, schadenfreude might have varied different translations in different Eve languages but I'd still use it IC because you have to provide that specific form of meaning and connotation to the player. It's the same reason I'm ambivalent when people want to speak purely in some fictional language like Napanii. It creates a situation where you might as well be speaking gibberish IC unless other people go through the effort of having to translate it themselves.

[Tiberious Thessalonia]

I always operated on  a principle of keeping it simple.  None of us speak the languages that are being used, ostensibly, so it doesnt really matter if I mention Planck Lengths or Occam's Razor, so long as its generally understood that when I use these terms I am not referring to these people in specific but to the concept.  Similarly with Chardonnay, which while it might refer to a specific region of France, is generally understood to be "A fancy wine"

[Gottii]

Yeah, Chardonnay is an area of France, much like marathon is a town in Greece, cologne is a city in germany, etc, but I dont think using the word "marathon" in RP somehow destroys the immersion.

While using such words sometimes seems kinda silly, its generally much better than trying to scrub modern English of every word that pulls from place names, or trying to come up with nonsense words as stand ins.

[Havohej]

I started to post, but then Gottii already said it.  So... yeah.  As was said in the original thread on the topic, there are hundreds (thousands?) of words we use every day that are rooted in the name of a historical person or place.  The word machiavellian, for instance, is fine.  Referencing the "The Prince" by Niccolo Machiavelli directly is less so.

[Lyn Farel]

As far as I know, Chardonnay is a grape, not a region. Champagne is a region. I may also be biased when I hear the word Champagne since it is totally immersion breaking for me, but I get the same feeling when reading about Tasers and the likes where it can easily be replaced by electrogun.

I can tolerate physic principles since I don't see how you would explain it quickly and easily otherwise (and also would have to agree with all the other players that Orkam Law is Occam Razor and not Hokaram Theory...), but for grapes, the examples provided above is a very simple way to make people understand what you are referring to. If he doesn't know your little wine, so what ? You just have to tell him its a wine originated from your native planet or whatever, since you are the expert. It's a regional thing after all, and a big cluster.

So yes, as far as I understand that for an universal word it's quite hard to do otherwise, for local things I don't really understand the need to use a RL thing instead.

[Havohej]

Hard to get away from historical references of people and places, sometimes.

All the great world-builders among us can set to work on inventing uniquely New Eden names for grapes and wines as they see fit.  When Havo deigns to grace a social scene with his presence, he's probably still going to go for a Matari blood ale if available, and if not (and it usually isn't outside of very specific places), then it's always been club soda for him.

To the main thrust of the thread, I just personally don't see as it matters all that much as long as things that are lost to humanity 25000 (?) years after the collapse of the Eve Gate aren't mentioned.

[Lyn Farel]

Heh lol, I looked for it and didn't find the town, and assumed it was not one.

[Havohej]

Saw it mentioned on the History Channel's "Modern Marvels" television series while I was in prison. 

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Suddenly I think imprisonment might be a good Thing for educating People. ;P

[Victoria Stecker]

Suddenly I think imprisonment might be a good Thing for educating People. ;P

Better funded than our schools.

[Makkal]

I tend to find parody references to our world more imershun breaking than regular references.

'Game of Drones,' for example.

[Esna Pitoojee]

Generally, there are 2 scales I look at.

One, is it possible to easily communicate the sentiment without "name-dropping". For instance - instead of saying "Well, in response to your idea, I invoke Occam's Razor", it might also be quite possible to say "Well, I've read your idea, but there's this principle that the simplest answer is often the best..." It's barely a few words longer, but no namedrop needed - so, I prefer the latter solution. I won't go apeshit on someone for using the former, but I do prefer the latter. Of course, as has been noted here, in some cases you simply can't easily explain things without namedropping - so in those cases, please go ahead.


The second scale is whether it feels as though the name is being dropped to "win" an argument. The classic example I've seen is people namedropping RL political figures or movements to "give examples" of how a given idea is "right" or "wrong". This probably bleeds over into an entirely separate issue, but it's one of the major ways I judge these things.



Edit: Regarding parody references, sometimes they're legitimately funny. I find myself giving a pass on them in those cases. Sometimes, though, it feels more like a case of "hey, if we swap X for Y in Z name, it'll be funny, right?"

[Arista Shahni]

I try to balance my thoughts on this .  More immersion breaking then people using a 'brand name' for something

* Arista Shahni blows her nose with a Kleenes

is someone who saks:

"What is a cat?"

MENTALLY every single one of us can cover for an accidental nick in the 4th wall.  But when everyone starts pointing and screaming at it, it is embarrassing for the person who did it and completely disruptive to the flow of roleplay.