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[Seriphyn]

Now with less flamebait hopefully

[Tiberious Thessalonia]

50% of this video is talking about your previous video getting shitcanned and why you think that was a bad idea.

I have a legitimate question for you here.  Why do you think that posting these things in video format is a good idea?  I am not entirely clear on your reasoning.  I am not sure what the addition of an audio-visual element is doing to aid your arguement.

[Katrina Oniseki]

Not as good of a shirt this time. You look like an orange flavored push-pop.

... that came out wrong.

Wait. You said my name. I just heard my name. I'll reply properly in a moment.

Okay, so some people thought I was posting flamebait... or something? I don't know. I pretty blatantly told you I wanted to talk to you on teamspeak. Don't know what's bait about that.

Why do we target one individual? I am not the community, nor do I say what I say because everybody else is saying it. I have very personal reasons to strongly dislike Vea. I also have my reasons to dislike you. I'm not saying what I say because somebody else is telling me I should. I'm saying it because I believe it.

[Arista Shahni]

Tibby said it just as I was writing it.  I had stopped cause I was writing it before I had even started to listen.

Why are you doing this?

But... meh.

Let's lay it out simply.

Humans are social animals.  Back to your a or b or c -- you can not say there is either  no equal distribution of blame or 'slightly leaned one way or another' because that is in essense  "only answer a".

It doesn't matter how complicated a, in fact, is -- it still is only one answer, and the truth of it is in different situations there are always different answers.

As you have pulled this into a more general question and not a "why me" (for the record I want to point out that I knew pretty close to zero about anything going on until you brought it up -- if there is some secret community meetings going on I have missed them.  This  may open your eyes a little but as you're pointing into some black hole and saying 'the Community' -- which one, exactly?  I know of at least 3-4 different ones in EVE who RP who do not interact with one another) 

If a person's social behaviors deviate too far out of the norm of a society they will have issues fitting into said society.  This applies from  highbrow cocktail parties to us sitting around roleplaying highbrow cocktail parties in a spaceship game.

Who's fault is that?

*shrugs*

One can blame the person for deviating, the group for not being accepting of the deviation or all of them for being human, but ultimately just a judgement call could only be made from outside of the group.   In the meantime I'm still reeling from this RL 'lore dump' in general.

[Silas Vitalia]

The story is always the same, the supposed 'victims' generally have a habit of repeatedly abusing the group's good graces, demanding attention, seeming to enjoy the drama storms with them at the center, and the always fantastic 'victim card,' which there seem to be unlimited supplies in decks these days.

People don't collectively shit on random people for no reason. 99% of the time, and I'm really scratching my head looking for instances where this isn't the case, the RP 'victim' has done their absolute best effort, repeatedly, to receive any treatment they get.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

I have a legitimate question for you here.  Why do you think that posting these things in video format is a good idea?  I am not entirely clear on your reasoning.  I am not sure what the addition of an audio-visual element is doing to aid your arguement.

It might not be adding to the argument per se, but textual communication leaves out a lot of information that is conveyed by voice and visual stimuli.

I see and hear someone struggling to sort the issues out between himself and the community here. Maybe Seriphyn is not overly good at it, but that's just one more reason not to cut away two channels of communitcation there. I have the feeling he tries to put in some effort there and I can appreciate that effort.

More than making an argumant, I feel he struggles to express questions, to get into contact on a human(e) level. I can appreciate that, too. I don't see an intention to flame-bait, though I can see why what Seri wrote came off to some as fame-bait.

I agree that this community singles oftentimes individuals out. It is human nature. I agree with Seri that it being human nature doesn't make it right or acceptable, though. Sometimes it's more the fault of the individual sometimes it's more the fault of the community and sometimes of people leading the community and the community following. In most cases it's a a case of communication not working out, of - oftentimes - unfortunate  misunderstandings.

That's why I don't like blaming either the community or the individual in question.

[Silas Vitalia]

Name names!

Name naaaaames!

[Iwan Terpalen]

You want something out of playing Seriphyn that neither the character, nor the characters, nor people interacting with him are going to give you. Your attempts to squeeze it out of them anyway are, if not actually obsessive, at least irritating to the people you're spending your time with.

I think you'd benefit from being someone else for a while, preferably radically different from Seriphyn-c and Seriphyn-p.

So, burn the character, and piss on the ashes. I've tried it, it's very relaxing.

[Lyn Farel]

The story is always the same, the supposed 'victims' generally have a habit of repeatedly abusing the group's good graces, demanding attention, seeming to enjoy the drama storms with them at the center, and the always fantastic 'victim card,' which there seem to be unlimited supplies in decks these days.

People don't collectively shit on random people for no reason. 99% of the time, and I'm really scratching my head looking for instances where this isn't the case, the RP 'victim' has done their absolute best effort, repeatedly, to receive any treatment they get.

Well thank you then.

I will stop abusing your good graces and hope you didn't mind my attention whoring all these years. 

People usually have a hard time admitting that something is wrong, until they eventually find themselves in the same situation. That's what I would call privilege.

Attention whoring suddenly becomes more akin to a legitimate complaint that nobody even tries to hear.

And yes, that does rarely happen for no reason. From experience most of the time it's one of those :

- Novice RPer not doing very well and getting stomped by the community.
- Godmodding/Silly RPer getting in the way.
- Different tastes for RP that are not a majority.
- IC/OOC bleedovers.

The last two ones are the ones that have always concerned me the most. Some types of RP are not well received in the community.

But in a strictly IC manner, I have seen countless threads for feedback here on backstage of players that suddenly find their characters "stuck in a corner" because of IC consequences. These are the most common since in a setting like Eve, these consequences are completely magnified and can quickly make a character unplayable or condemned ICly for X or Y reasons. Also, it has happened to pretty much every type of player I have seen, be it the famous one, or the infamous or unliked one.

That way I don't think that RP and IC actions in themselves are the root of the problem. It mostly stems from OOC social interaction that you will find anywhere else, with or without RP. Where it gets complicated is that these issues can arise from IC stuff as well as OOC stuff. Since a lot of people are unable to comply to the almighty golden rule of IC/OOC separation, drama can ensue.

But anyway, victims can arise from anything, and I have already witnessed a certain number of cases where the player was just getting OOC fire just because something he did ICly ruffled some feathers. I have seen it in others, and I have also faced it myself - and laughed it off since the case was mostly isolated, but it becomes trickier when the "aggressor" is "famous" or well placed among a certain circle of friends where you can quickly get a forged reputation quite different for what really is.

I have also seen people literally cast away, either by themselves, or either by the "community" just because they happened to hold different OOC opinions on various things. OOC opinions that were not really irreconcilable and that were, really, like saying "I do not see it that way, but we all share the same passion and similar interests through a video game". It can be anything, really, just too or more people not getting along in the first place, where one of them will have friends ready to jump to his/her rescue and roflstomp the other one. It can also be conflicts of interpretation around RP, or just different ways of imagining the setting. It of course leads to debates or discussions, and then most of the time, one or both players will feel literally threatened by the views of the other one.

So no, that "blaming the victim" syndrome is rather annoying.

[Silas Vitalia]

I like you just fine, Lyn

*takes back victim card for someone else*

[Katrina Oniseki]

But anyway, victims can arise from anything, and I have already witnessed a certain number of cases where the player was just getting OOC fire just because something he did ICly ruffled some feathers. I have seen it in others, and I have also faced it myself - and laughed it off since the case was mostly isolated, but it becomes trickier when the "aggressor" is "famous" or well placed among a certain circle of friends where you can quickly get a forged reputation quite different for what really is.

I have also seen people literally cast away, either by themselves, or either by the "community" just because they happened to hold different OOC opinions on various things. OOC opinions that were not really irreconcilable and that were, really, like saying "I do not see it that way, but we all share the same passion and similar interests through a video game". It can be anything, really, just too or more people not getting along in the first place, where one of them will have friends ready to jump to his/her rescue and roflstomp the other one. It can also be conflicts of interpretation around RP, or just different ways of imagining the setting. It of course leads to debates or discussions, and then most of the time, one or both players will feel literally threatened by the views of the other one.

So no, that "blaming the victim" syndrome is rather annoying.

It might be annoying to have groups fight each other and popularity contests determine the results of who is right and wrong. It might be annoying to have people blame the losers of those fights, who almost invariably end up beaten down enough to look like a victim. It might be annoying, but that's sociology for you.

We've had this thread before.

I think you are tending to use the word "victim" quite honestly and literally. You seem to actually see them as (innocent?) victims, rather than contributors to the situations they've found themselves in. At least, that's what the word implies.

Seriphyn has guts. He's got cahoonas. He's got testicular fortitude. He stands up and says what he believs and doesn't back down from it. This is a good thing, but it also makes him a target for those who fancy themselves his rivals. When somebody confident and intelligent stands up for what they believe in, they are going to find those who disagree, and one of those two sides is going to win the ensuring battle for dominance. In this case, Seriphyn seems to have 'lost'. While I don't agree with some of the posts in his first thread that were kicking him on the ground, I think rushing to his defense ignores the fact that he - as an active and healthy participant of social interactions - willingly stepped into the arena, so to speak.

I don't expect I'll be able to convince you that Seriphyn, as the context of this thread, freely admits that he has made mistakes and fuckups that lead to where he is. Of course, many of us in the 'community' including myself also freely admit that our (or at least my own) reactions are not entirely reasonable or well founded in every case. Again, human nature. Sociology.

Yes, we say things that are unfair, we do things that are unfair. Yes I've attacked Seriphyn, and I've admitted my wrongdoing in that to him and do make an effort to look past it.

Does that mean my dislike of him is unfounded? No.
Does that in turn mean I shouldn't try (or are not trying) to work past it? Not at all.

All this black and white talk is precisely what Seriphyn is trying to get across in his videos as false. We are all at fault for what's going on, because we're all humans with human failings. At least those of us who participate in whatever situation is going on.

[Lyn Farel]

Back on topic in the case of Seri, I am still struggling to understand what makes everything he explains so quickly censured. Either in the character, or either the player. I have listened to both videos, and read most of his threads. Some sure sound a little like attention-seeking. It surely detracts on the real message.

However, I have heard several critics addressed on various places and am still trying to understand, but eventually fail every time I try.

1) Seriphyn is a womanizer. He was the first time I interacted ICly with him, but since then, I have not seen that for years. Maybe have I missed every single instance of it, it's not like i'm here all the day though. Anyway, how is a womanizer prick worse than a lot of characters around there ? It sounds pretty harmless to me in comparison of the horrendous things one can hear/read at times, coming from perfectly valid characters

2) Seriphyn is egotistical/self entitled. Oh dear, he is far from being the only one. Quite harmless compared to some truly egotistical capsuleers. Heh... Capsuleers.

3) Seri the player can not handle the consequences for the actions of his character. I am not sure that I have seen him complaining that his character is hated. At best, he might have asked for feedback, but again maybe I missed something. Most of the time, it's complaining about the community or OOC issues. All the recent posts that were quickly catacombed were not complaining of the status of Seriphyn the character in Eve. When the player behind asks for that, it seems to me that he is asking for feedback. There is a huge difference in tone between the finger pointing at OOC issues and the community, and the quiet need for feedback for a character that understandably is probably in a hard situation to play without signing a RP death warrant.

[Lyn Farel]

We've had this thread before.

etc

No, that's not what I said. Seri has his wrongs as a player, like most of us. I'm not privy of everything and if I have to repeat it for the 10th time, I have probably missed some things, especially what seems to have ruffled a lot of people off when he started a few years ago. I just happen to think that I have honestly a hard time to understand what is wrong at the time being, now.

And the gripe I have with your view on the matter is that you seem to be perfectly fine with that state of things (as in your link). I hope not that you find yourself someday in the same situation. It would be quite ironic.

[Katrina Oniseki]

And the gripe I have with your view on the matter is that you seem to be perfectly fine with that state of things. I hope not that you find yourself someday in the same situation. It would be quite ironic.

I grew up in that situation, Lyn. I was the black sheep of not only school, but my family too. This is how I learned how to survive it. By embracing it. I learned how to fight back and play those social games to win.

Nice try appealing to pathos though.

Also, I edited my post that you quoted a few times. May want to give it another read.

[Lyn Farel]

That is exactly what I said, you only comforted me further in what I find disgusting, so I will try to answer it most plainly.

Growing up does not mean in my book to actually contribute to the issue by taking part of it, and thus being fine with it. Maybe eventually that's the safest way to survive, of course, and I understand what made you say that though, but I strongly disagree, because i'm a righteous prick that has always been unable to understand the lack of principles and self discipline in most people, and that's my main obnoxious flaw, and doubled by the fact that i'm quite proud of it and wouldn't even like to change it, whatever offered in compensation. So yes, I care too much and sound like an arrogant lecturer.

Anyway, I thought I had a lot to say on the matter but this actually sums it up nicely to my eyes.

tl;dr : the bolded part


Edit : after it hit me just like that, I think I am like Havojeh did before starting to make a fuss in an over-exagerated fashion. Especially since I am using the occasion to point fingers at the moderation, with which I am in deep disagreement atm. I may step back from the discussion and get a breath somewhere, sorry.