Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Lyn Farel]

That's assuming that the lack of news comes from an IC logic rather than OOC constraints, here, CCP not releasing any news about it.

Also, I could counter argue that since Insorum is believed to be lethal, it would also have made big news that somehow, it was harmless this time.

[Rok-Yuni]

you could counter argue with that, but you would be forgetting...
This is new eden, people not dying, isn't really likely to make the news unless it happens somewhere like the kyonoke pit.

there is still the fact that several entire planetary populations would have been affected by the insorum bombardments.
several planetary populations dying in a manner similar to vitoxin poisoning would have made the news, no ifs, no buts, the SoE would have been involved, and newsfeeds across the cluster would have been sending live feeds out of it.

bio-weapon use on the scale that you seem to be suggesting simply wouldn't have gone un-noticed.

the only, and i really should emphasise 'only', logical explaination we can come to IC, is that this particular strain of insorum, isn't lethal.
the untested belief stated in insorum's description was false.
which would explain why they used the term 'believed to be' ...

I can understand why amarrian RP'ers would want to be able to paint insorum as a bio weapon, but in this case, there is simply no evidence to support that claim, and too much that counters it.

[Lyn Farel]

That's your opinion. Don't take it wrong but i'm kindof not a fan arguing over thin air and things that do not even exist in PF. Characters can argue whatever they want and seems logical to them considering the facts they know, some will probably hold the same reasoning that you have, some will probably hold another, but the fact remains that since there is nothing in PF surrounding that particular matter, it's a slippery slope.

It's a slippery slope because anyone claiming that mass casualties happened or the contrary, will be confronted to the fact that the results of such a thing would be fairly obvious for anyone. And since us, the players, don't even know what is the correct answer, then how could our characters speculate about something so obvious ? Anyone would know if there was massive casualties, the same as everyone would know if there wasnt.

It's true that ICly since there is no news about it, we can take it as if nothing happened, but that's a little too convenient, and very risky.

[Louella Dougans]

And since us, the players, don't even know what is the correct answer, then how could our characters speculate about something so obvious ?

Exact same issue as with the Elders being considered almost god-like beings of supreme knowledge, central to the beliefs and lives of all Minmatar citizens, as mentioned in the Empyrean Age book.

But no-one had told any of the Minmatar players about that in the previous 5 or so years. You'd think the existence of Minmatar demigods would be something that would have been mentioned.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Well, Rok, explain to me again why Insorum was used on Mekhios after the slaves there were largely killed? Why did they waste that perfectly fine Insorum on the Sarumites?

There is no logical necessity to come to the conclusions you champion. I notice that 'logical' starts to be used as a buzzword to indicate that "I'm right and everyone who differs is wrong.", that's not what the word means, though. So unless you give a logically sound and valid proof that there's only your interpretation of a lack of information possible I will reserve myself the right to differ.

That said, I'm really excited for your rigorous logical treatment that shows that absence of evidence is evidence of absence.

[Louella Dougans]

I can understand why amarrian RP'ers would want to be able to paint insorum as a bio weapon, but in this case, there is simply no evidence to support that claim, and too much that counters it.

Perhaps amarrian RP'ers would like a game universe where one PF author's apparent highly personal grudge crusade against the Roman Catholic church wasn't so important to the game background ?

Casualties on the planets would result in the kinds of images that are on the TV and news in RL recently, due to events in the Middle East. The Elders are dicks, the Minmatar are dicks, the Gallente are dicks. But one author says "nope, they're not dicks, because the Catholic Church are dicks", and so they get a free pass to exterminate.

Woo \o/ 

[spoiler]Meh[/spoiler]

[Ciarente]

If nobody knows Ishukone made Insorum, then I've been doing it wrong this whole time.

I think everyone knows Ishukone made insorum -- but whether they made the insorum used on the Amarr worlds is something else entirely. And whether you can prove it is an even bigger issue. As I said, if Reppola was smart, he obliterated anything that could trace that back to Ishukone.

I am pretty sure that was never public knowledge, anyway. If it was, Otro's sister was even more stupid than I thought she was.

IIRC, there were three sources of insorum known to capusleers/characters:

1) In the possession of Ishukone (CCP)
2) In the possession of UK (players)
3) In the possession of the Bloodraiders (players)

Characters who have IC knowledge of what happened to the samples in possession of player characters might well have very different opinions of Ishukone than those who do not.

[Rok-Yuni]

Well, Rok, explain to me again why Insorum was used on Mekhios after the slaves there were largely killed? Why did they waste that perfectly fine Insorum on the Sarumites?

There is no logical necessity to come to the conclusions you champion. I notice that 'logical' starts to be used as a buzzword to indicate that "I'm right and everyone who differs is wrong.", that's not what the word means, though. So unless you give a logically sound and valid proof that there's only your interpretation of a lack of information possible I will reserve myself the right to differ.

That said, I'm really excited for your rigorous logical treatment that shows that absence of evidence is evidence of absence.

Did you read the chapter you are referencing?
The initial bombardment with insorum was made because they intended to, and in fact attempted to, retrieve slaves from the planet.
They had no idea that most of the slaves had been hidden in sealed environments, forced to wear breathing apparatus, or killed.
(those were Jamyl's orders, in that specific order, the chapter insinuated that most were not killed, merely put in a position where the insorum would not reach them.

the assault on the ground failed because in this case, it was shown that after the initial bombardment, the slaves were still vitoc dependent. (the little girl who shot the matari trooper in the head for her next dosage)

How, pray tell, would those up on the ships that initiated the assault upon reaching orbit, have known about the activities of those on the planet?

It honestly sounds like you haven't actually read the book and are just going off second hand information here Nico.

--------------------------

and in this case, yes. The absence of evidence as to the depopulation of the entire ammatar mandate, as well as Kor-Azor prime and Sarum prime, kind of is evidence that it didn't happen.
Those kind of things just don't go unreported.

simply put, people not dying isn't news.
people dying, especially on the scale we're talking about here, is.

[Lyn Farel]

People not dying when exposed to a biological agent as in your words and CCP's believed to be absolutely lethal, to me, would rather make the news too. And if not in the cluster for whatever reason, at least in the ACN, or that, too, wouldnt make no sense.

The more I learn about that book...

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Hmmn, how could they have known? Maybe by reading the news stating that the Sarumites killed off the slaves, as a news article that was up before the Elder fleet reached the System did report?

13.45 Eve Standard time
Slave-lynching on Amarr Prime
Sarum Prime - Following the news of the massed Minmatar-Thukker task force invading Amarr sovereign territory, the planet 'Mekhios' have become the scene for mass public executions as Amarrian ground forces attempt to remove the threat of rebellious slaves before they are exposed to Insorum by the invading forces.

Reports are coming in that Minmatar-Thukker forces are rapidly approaching the Sarum core worlds, with little in the way to slow them down.


13.48 Eve Standard time
REPORT: THIRD MINMATAR-THUKKER FLEET DETECTED IN DOMAIN REGION; FIERCE FIGHTING REPORTED OVER SARUM PRIME
Sarum Prime – In what eyewitnesses are describing as an "epic, violent clash between empires", the Imperial Navy has just engaged a third Minmatar-Thukker fleet over the third planet of the Sarum Prime system, 'Mekhios'. Multiple worlds within the Amarr Empire, in particular the Kor-Azor Region, have been attacked with orbital bombardments just prior to the surface landings of hundreds of thousands of Minmatar troops, who despite their uniform ethnicity cannot be confirmed to be Republic infantrymen.

The invaders are believed to be using Insorum in their bombardments, saturating ground targets with airborne variants of the Vitoc-neutralizing agent before commencing their assaults.

It is unclear why the Imperial Navy has chosen Sarum Prime to makes its stand, where it appears the bulk of the Empire’s warships are either onsite or en-route to the battle.

That gives the Elder fleet 3 minutes to realize that they will waste their valuable Insorum... But maybe they didn't read the news ticker. Just like you?

Fanboying about that book being full of inconsistencies isn't really what will convice me.

And as well: Just because there are no news articles about people dying through Insorum doesn't mean no one were.

Also it might be the case that - shocking, I know - the Amarr were prepared for that incidence and used breathing masks not only on the slaves! Maybe civilians were as well evacuated before bombardment with Insorum commenced? Maybe Amarr are capable of ABC defense?

So, maybe the planets weren't depopulated because Insorum isn't toxic, but simply because the Amarr were prepared for the case of ABC attacks?

But, erm, no that's not a possibility because in this case, absence of evidence is evidence of absence because... wait,... you said so. Erm. No. That's got nothing to do with logics.

[Ollie]

Perhaps amarrian RP'ers would like a game universe where one PF author's apparent highly personal grudge crusade against the Roman Catholic church wasn't so important to the game background ?

...

The Elders are dicks, the Minmatar are dicks, the Gallente are dicks. But one author says "nope, they're not dicks, because the Catholic Church are dicks", and so they get a free pass to exterminate.

Damn you TonyG - if it hadn't been for you and those pesky kids everything would have turned out just like it should have in the EVE storyboarding we wrote on the back of a Reykjavik pub's napkins back in 2000 or some time:

The Amarr Empire are dicks! Reckless, arrogant, stupid dicks. And the Gallente are pussies. And the Minmatar Republic is an asshole. Pussies don't like dicks, because pussies get fucked by dicks. But dicks also fuck assholes: assholes that just want to shit on everything. Pussies may think they can deal with assholes their way. But the only thing that can fuck an asshole is a dick, with some balls. (The balls might or might not be the State). The problem with dicks is: they fuck too much or fuck when it isn't appropriate - and it takes a pussy to show them that. But sometimes, pussies can be so full of shit that they become assholes themselves... because pussies are an inch and half away from ass holes. I don't know much about this crazy, crazy world, but I do know this: If you don't let us fuck this asshole, we're going to have our dicks and pussies all covered in shit!

But god-damned TonyG and his 10 second attention span only read the first two sentences!

Edit to add:Still, we're finally getting things back on track. The Gallente are covered in shit and the Amarr are getting ready to do what needs to be done to the Republic. And the Caldari are still hanging around, swinging whichever way they want to.

[Shiori]

Insorum (Insorzapine bisulfate) is a reactive mutagen binder, a compound whose active chemical responds dynamically to mutagens in the body. This gives it tremendous healing properties for those afflicted with specific diseases, but, it is believed, also makes it an extremely dangerous genetic toxin for those in otherwise good health.

Believed by whom? Correctly or not? Are there actual PF instances of someone dying because of exposure to the stuff?

[Esna Pitoojee]

Insorum (Insorzapine bisulfate) is a reactive mutagen binder, a compound whose active chemical responds dynamically to mutagens in the body. This gives it tremendous healing properties for those afflicted with specific diseases, but, it is believed, also makes it an extremely dangerous genetic toxin for those in otherwise good health.

Believed by whom? Correctly or not? Are there actual PF instances of someone dying because of exposure to the stuff?

Presumably by CONCORD, as they seem to be the ones who write 95% (if not all) of the item descriptions.

I'll add that just because it hasn't been a colossal huge news article or book to be thrown in our face, doesn't mean it hasn't happened. Both Evelopedia and item descriptions are filled with offhand references and suggestions regarding the items they describe - Sooth Sayer, for instance, has "reports [telling] of abusers falling into a deep coma, never to regain consciousness."

Has it been in a news article? Not to my knowledge. Book? Definitely not. Should it be disregarded because it's not a stone-solid, in-the-spotlight confirmed fact? I don't think so.

[Shiori]

Still, an "is believed" is a lot to hinge something so massive on. Potential side effects on an illegal booster are a lot easier to accept than planet-wide bombardments with Insorum raising nary a peep about the supposedly lethal effect on pretty much everyone exposed to it.

Even the news article quoted by Nicoletta describes preparations being made for potential slave uprisings, but never mentions a single blip of worry about any kind of risk of it killing anyone. It's descibed as a "vitoc-neutralizing agent," simply.

My best guess is that if Insorum was intended to be dangerous to non-Vitoxin addicts, whoever wrote up that arc simply forgot about it. Yes, that's a stupid and massive omission, but at this point, isn't it less disruptive to retcon out a property only "believed" to exist, rather than retcon in billions of deaths and heinous war crimes?

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Again, you don't have to retcon in billions of deaths. Amarr are capable of ABC defense, too.

P.S.: They can do it with themselves, too, not just their slaves.