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[Synthia]

Facts:
1. The Elder Fleet invaded Amarr space, including some of the capital systems - Kor-Azor Prime, Sarum Prime for example, where some of the most heavily populated worlds in the Amarr Empire are.
2. The Elder Fleet used Insorum bombs to bombard those heavily populated planets.
3. The source of the Insorum was Otro Gariushi's secret facility.
4. The Elder Fleet was constructed in the Thukker Tribe's territory, with their help, and with Gallente Federation money, intended for the Republic.
5. The Thukker Tribe is now a part of Shakor's Republic.
6. Shakor has full knowledge of all these facts.

Now then, this means, that the claim that "the Elder fleet is not the Republic, and so the Republic has no responsibility" has no validity. By incorporating the Thukker Tribe into Shakor's Republic, responsibility for the Elder Fleet and its actions is now Shakor's.

That's big enough in itself, but wasn't what I was going to write about.

What I was going to write about was this: The nature of Insorum as a bioweapon.
Evelopedia states: " an extremely dangerous genetic toxin for those in otherwise good health"

Given that not all slaves are treated with Vitoc, and that commoners are not treated with Vitoc, then it means that a substantial proportion of the planet populations would have suffered the ill-effects of the Insorum bioweapon. Given the high populations of the affected worlds, then it means casualty figures would have been in the billions.

Making the Republic (due to Shakor's incorporation of the Thukkers) responsible for the deaths of billions through the use of orbital bioweaponry, and the Federation complicit in this action. Also an inconvenience for the Caldari, specifically Ishukone.

The Empyrean age novel glosses over this, suggesting either a retcon, or unwillingness to deal with this part of the PF, as it makes the actions of the "heroes" significantly tainted - killing billions in an ethnic cleansing bombardment, to rescue a handful of slave Minmatars.

It means that Gallente and Minmatar characters either have to be ignorant of these facts, or to be massive xenophobic hypocrites.

Thoughts ?

[Lyn Farel]

We never had any news reports on the fallout of Insorum, or any on the Elders after the attack. So it becomes mostly a matter of players interpretation.

[Silas Vitalia]

One does not ask questions about Tony G PF.   

Best close those eyes and let the good people at CCP and their slow retcons continue to work their way through the system.

The purging must continue.

[Louella Dougans]

Best close those eyes and let the good people at CCP and their slow retcons continue to work their way through the system.

It's a pretty big retcon.

Either the Minmatar perpetrated the biggest genocide in the entire history of new eden, bankrolled by the Gallente, and with the backing of one of the Caldari corporations, or they did not.

LOL AMARR

[BloodBird]

Best close those eyes and let the good people at CCP and their slow retcons continue to work their way through the system.

It's a pretty big retcon.

Either the Minmatar perpetrated the biggest genocide in the entire history of new eden, bankrolled by the Gallente, and with the backing of one of the Caldari corporations, or they did not.

LOL AMARR

This assumes a few things.

The Minmatar gives a damn: not likely, but that don't change anything in regards to them sheltering/being the people doing it.

The Caldari knew this would happen when their involvement took place. Given that this tech was not passed over with the precise knowledge of what the Matari intended to do, (Here you go here is your product now plz go kill a few billion Amarr, k tnx bye) but that is a bit like saying the iron-monger is not to blame his costumer mowed down a few hundred people with the weapons and ammo he provided.

Ishukone never intended to back such an endeavor in any way shape or form.

The Federation knew anything about where the money they gave to the Republic actually went. They didn't. They handed it over with the express intention of getting it to building Republic infrastructure and bettering the conditions in the Republic. Holding the Fed responsible is like holding the woman who got robbed blind responsible for the fact that what was originally her money, was used to buy the gun and ammo that killed a few hundred people. That logic don't fit anywhere.

The Fed never intended to pay for this and if the Elders/Republic government asked the Fed to provide them money for a huge fleet to attack CONCORD/The Amarr with they would have laughed in their faces, told them no, and asked them to fuck off. As it was the Republic/Elders asked for money to help fix their infrastructure and better the civilian condition etc. and the Fed agreed to do so. Sucks for them they were lied to.

In short, the only really guilty party here are the perpetrators of the attack and everyone else simply got screwed in some way, so even if it's somehow revealed that the Elder fleet ended a few billion Amarr (something tells me if this would be considered canon we would have been told a few years ago, what with this completely alienating the Minmatar and painting the Elders as a collection of genocidal hypocrites of the highest order and all) the Ishukone corp/Fed government would not be held responsible in any conceivable way.

[Louella Dougans]

in the empyrean age book, the Ishukone AI that Otro Gariushi had making Insorum, was instructed, by Gariushi, to manufacture not just Insorum, but gas dispersal systems, injectors, shells of every projectile calibre, to assist in Shakor's invasion. Shakor did not have to have the Insorum fitted to anything, the Ishukone drones provided all the delivery systems necessary, and had full knowledge that the invasion was what was being planned.

[Graelyn]

Yep.

[Gabriel Darkefyre]

even if it's somehow revealed that the Elder fleet ended a few billion Amarr (something tells me if this would be considered canon we would have been told a few years ago

This is pretty much the important part. The time around the Empyrean Age Release was pretty thorough with the In-Game News so if side effects to this degree were caused, it would have been noted at the time. Something tells me that TonyG either simply forgot that Insorum has those side effects on the Healthy or simply ignored the fact (Super Advanced Insorum™, now 100% Side Effect Free!)

The whole Insorum Attack in the Empyrean Age Book though made little sense. Bomb a Planet with this stuff to instantly free the slaves of Vitoc Addiction and the Slaves... immediately revolt en masse and go on a killing spree?

Would have made a hell of a lot more sense for the Insorum to be held somewhere safe, fleet goes in to rescue as many as they can with Vitoc on Board to ease any withdrawal symptoms (Much easier to get a hold of) while they get the rescued people out to a safe location to use the Insorum in a controlled manner.

I could be misremembering the book though, it's been a few years since I read it.

[Louella Dougans]

Amarr Certified News, Ministry of Internal Order.

It's possible, that they covered things up. Unlikely that it would be a perfect coverup, but who can tell ?

There was also wreckage from the space battles falling on the planet, and there was a substantial conventional bombardment too. Immediate casualties from that, and the clearup operations would add to the casualty figures, and obscure the cause of death for many as well.


Super Insorum, or a huge oversight, neither is particularly good. One is a colossal Mary Sue, like firing a full submarine load of ICBM and only the Bad Dudes get killed. The other means PF might as well not exist - well, the whole Elders thing, where they are one of the most important bits of Minmatar culture, but have not been mentioned to any extent beforehand? vOv

And yeah, killing sprees, killing millions of non-matari slaves, and poor commoners. vOv

The whole thing was a farce.

The bit when the Elder fleet lifted the Starkmanir from Mandate space, was OK. That made sense. The attacks on the Throne worlds... less so.
Like, during D-Day, having the Airborne forces land on Berlin, and being amazed when it doesn't work.

[Katrina Oniseki]

Would have made a hell of a lot more sense for the Insorum to be held somewhere safe, fleet goes in to rescue as many as they can with Vitoc on Board to ease any withdrawal symptoms (Much easier to get a hold of) while they get the rescued people out to a safe location to use the Insorum in a controlled manner.

Vitoc is still not easy to get a hold of. The Vitoxin infection/virus thing mutates itself frequently and regularly, and older batches of Vitoc will not work after each mutation. The scientists or whoever responsible for managing the Vitoc method in the Empire update the Vitoc given to Holders in preparation for (or reaction to) the latest mutation.

This is why Vitoc is such a problem. It's not simply an infection-drug dependency. It depends on an entire system of scientists and logistics to maintain the latest effective supply of the drug. This is why Minmatar slaves can't simply grab a stock of Vitoc and run off with it to live out their lives in freedom. They need to keep getting the most updated version of Vitoc from the only source that produces it - the Empire.

Granted, you could always raid the transports that deliver it, but that requires a lot of effort/planning/risk, and it must be done every single time the virus mutates and within a certain time limit before the symptoms reappear.

TL;DR
Vitoxin mutates constantly, requires constantly up-to-date Vitoc.

It's DRM for addicts.

The latest Vitoc drug resembles a virus in many ways, and no cure has yet been found for it. This is mainly due to the erratic nature of the drug, which constantly changes its appearance and behavior on a regular basis. These changes seem to be either controlled, or at least predicted by the Amarr, as they always seem to have the right antidote for their own use out in time before the toxin changes again.

https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Vitoc_method

[Esna Pitoojee]

The whole Insorum Attack in the Empyrean Age Book though made little sense. Bomb a Planet with this stuff to instantly free the slaves of Vitoc Addiction and the Slaves... immediately revolt en masse and go on a killing spree?

There were some news articles to this effect in the aftermath of Empyrean Age, describing roving mobs of freed slaves simply carving a path wherever they went. Articles later on (i.e., after the Elder Fleet had been Jamyl'd and the immediate crisis was over) described these mobs being "mopped up" by Amarr planetside forces using atmospheric fighter-bombers.


In fairness to the Elder fleet, this was probably a deliberate thing. Having large mobs of angry people roving around your planet (and likely around your major infrastructure points) would present a nasty choice for any remaining ground forces (try to counter the Republic's landing forces, or handle the huge mobs intent on blood?) which would almost certainly hinder further surface-to-orbit defense efforts. Of course huge numbers of these mobs would be killed even in the event of a successful invasion, but the Elders may have viewed this as a "some must die so the rest can be freed" kind of thing.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Honestly, I always assumed that the Elders used Insorum mainly as a bioweapon on Mekhios. The Sarumites had largely killed off their slaves in advance, so that they wouldn't have to deal with them when the the Elder forces hit. Why would the Elders bombard Mekhios with Insorum, if it's no good if there are no slaves to free of Vitoc addiction, if it's not also a potent toxin?

Of course I also assumed that the Amarr, or at least the Sarumites were prepared for ABC defense. But yes, if you didn't kill of the slaves you'd have fight on two fronts if you don't have ABC defense for the slaves as well.

Honestly, I think the Vitoxin/Vitoc system is wickedly ingenious and Insorum is just as wicked and ingenious a counter.

[Merdaneth]

They key assumption here is that Insorum used was a (lethal) bioweapon to non-Vitoc-addicts. I think that assumption is incorrect.

Even if the Minmatar were willing to accept billions in Amarr losses, they would also need to accept the losses of all slaves which were not Vitoc addicts. Which would in turn mean that the proportion of the slave population that uses Vitoc was above 50%, which seems rather steep to me in itself. Even then, would they be able to sell a 30% loss to their own bioweapons for the potential rescue of 70%, for example?

[Louella Dougans]

They key assumption here is that Insorum used was a (lethal) bioweapon to non-Vitoc-addicts. I think that assumption is incorrect.

Even if the Minmatar were willing to accept billions in Amarr losses, they would also need to accept the losses of all slaves which were not Vitoc addicts. Which would in turn mean that the proportion of the slave population that uses Vitoc was above 50%, which seems rather steep to me in itself. Even then, would they be able to sell a 30% loss to their own bioweapons for the potential rescue of 70%, for example?

There was a story a while back, in which a Minmatar force raided a slave facility in the Bleak Lands, and after checking the ethnicities of the slaves, forced all the non-Minmatar slaves back into the cells before leaving.

So, there's precedent, I believe, for Minmatar forces to simply not care about the fate of non-Minmatar slaves.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Ahjup, also there's the point, still, that Insourum bomabardments of Mekhios commenced, even after "Following the news of the massed Minmatar-Thukker task force invading Amarr sovereign territory, the planet 'Mekhios' has become the scene for mass public executions as Amarrian ground forces attempt to remove the threat of rebellious slaves before they are exposed to Insorum by the invading forces."

The majority of slaves was already killed when the the Elders arrived. What for the waste of all the good Insorum, then? Wouldn't it be used with more effect elsewhere, if it wasn't also a bio-weapon, but just a cure for Vitoxin?

No, it seems that the Elders were prepared to kill off a certain percentage of their Matari brethren (and non-Matari slaves anyway). That's collateral damage and the fault of the Amarr, anyway.