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[Nicoletta Mithra]

Next time the IN gets into a fight, I'd like to see it actually curb stomp shit like it's supposed to.

I think it's because (as was pointed by Andy on the IGS), the Amarr haven't actually fought toe to toe with an equal enemy for an extended period of time, unlike say the Gallente v Caldari.

With a navy that's supposed to outnumber anybody else five to one, I don't see why CCP would need to portray them fighting fair. Just drop twice or thrice as many dreads on the field. Republic drops 15 Nags for another Colelie, this time in Imperial space? Okay. Imperial Navy drops 45 Revs, and 15 carriers. And five Aeons. Also an Avatar.

You don't need to be 'efficient' or 'effective' when you have an overwhelmingly larger navy.

Granted, I don't think CCP has enough event actors who can play the part, but then again they can just get ISD in on it. Give Mercury members and such some actor ships for the event.

True that.
Still, there are some people out there that go beyond rooting for their favorite Empire and are instead preaching it's supposed superiority. The truth remains that the Empire isn't that experienced in fighting on equal terms and thus it's by no means in general 'supposed to curb stomp shit'...

On the other hand this means something in regard to those people who can't stop preaching about what an evil big militaristic threat the Empire is as well: They aren't really on track either.

[Katrina Oniseki]

Well, curbstomping somebody doesn't always mean on equal terms. Ignoring the movie origin of the term, in EVE it usually refers to having your s*** kicked in by an overwhelmingly powerful enemy. I'm pretty sure the suggested scenario would qualify for a curbstomp.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

It would, in the scenario given by you. It hinges though on the Amarr Navy deploying in timely fashion in response to a threat and it's historically bad at this.

Point is, there are certainly situations in which the Amarr Navy is supposed to be able to play it's advantages and 'curb stomp' somebody. But that still doesn't mean that the Amarr Navy is 'supposed to curb stomp shit' without further specification.

Being 'able to curb stomp shit when being able to use ones advantages' doesn't equal being 'supposed to curb stomp shit'. Full stop.

[Katrina Oniseki]

Ohhhh, I see what you're saying now. Very good point.

The Imperial Navy would be late arriving on the scene, have very poor target calling, not have entirely effective meta-fits; and they would pretty much be relying on overwhelming force to win the day.

On the other hand, maybe the Imperial Navy has a "Special Forces" group that keeps up to date with the metagame and actually fights effectively? Would solve the whole 'not enough actors' thing...

[Ollie]

To be honest, I really hope things don't get pushed to open war. My reasons are both concern for the Amarr RP bloc - nobody likes getting a pile of stupid dumped on their faction's heads, and IMO that's exactly what this would be - and concern for the RP community as a whole:

As was said in a recent thread, CCP seems to lately feel that the only way to generate storylines and RP is to add conflict. Not enough RP? Just add more "rawr, grrr, you evil _____" and instant storyline! It works once or twice (Evaulon was good because of the visceral reaction that conflict created for a lot of people). It doesn't work ceaselessly, though; when I look back at the recent RP events, it feels to me like there was much more interest in the events which had a hint of construction rather than just pure destruction. Tribal Assembly? People were hyped for that. Running freighters to Cal Prime? The Live Event in the aftermath of the battle seemed like it was something people were happy with, and the (entirely player run) rescue effort beforehand was plenty fun as well.

tl;dr - People want to build stuff, not just fight. It's no fun for people to try defending their sandcastles when all they have is a vaguely castle-like muddy mound.

Good luck doing that if total war gets started. Anyone who's ever looked in the IGS or Summit knows, slavery and slaves get brought up plenty enough already.

I agree with most of what was said here, but I think that the Caldari, Minmatar and (to some extent at least) the Gallente have all had their lore shaken up and that the Amarr are likely next on the CCP 'Exterminate the TonyG era' to-do list. They've built the Sarum push for war up slowly but steadily over the last few months.

What I wonder is how the Sarum family's end-result in any such conflict are going to impact on her rule and how CCP might use that to destabilise it or get rid of her (or parts of her) outright?

[Nicoletta Mithra]

My main point really is that the Amarr Navy isn't simply > all, nor simply > Elder Fleet or Republic Fleet either. It wasn't 'supposed' to beat the shit out of the Elder Fleet, nor was it 'supposed to' win any of the engagements it recently lost. Much less was it 'supposed to curb stomp' the opponents it had.

That said, I'm sure that the Navy has it's advantages and I'd also think that the special forces divisions of the IN are just as effective as those of other Navies. They probably won't have the numbers advantage in addition, though.

So, yes, if the Republic tossed a few caps over into Empire space, they should get stomped: The reverse is true as well, though, I think.  It the Empire launched an all-out attack on the Republic the outcome is supposed to be in the air, not that the Empire will of course 'curb stomp shit like it's supposed to', because, simply put, the Imperial Navy is not supposed to curb stomp the Republic Fleet in that situation.

[Samira Kernher]

No, I didn't specify the situations in which it's supposed to, because I didn't think I needed to spell it out. Apparently I do.

The Empire definitely has its weaknesses. I never said it didn't. Vak'Atioth was a showcasing of those weaknesses, as the Jove took complete advantage of them.

But the fact is, the Empire has the largest navy, and "the oldest and most experienced military leaders in the cluster" (CCP Falcon). When CCP has ranked the navies, the Empire comes out on top. It is constantly described with phrases such as, "one of the most powerful and capable forces in all of New Eden."

For one of the most powerful and capable forces in all of New Eden, the navy ranked above all others by CCP, it has yet to win any major fight in recent lore. That's the problem. It isn't that the Amarr Navy shouldn't have weaknesses that can be exploited--it should, and does--it's that we have yet to see the strengths it's supposed to have in anything other than exposition.

So, yes, if the Republic tossed a few caps over into Empire space, they should get stomped:

They should. Yet last time they did, they didn't.

[Seriphyn]

See, when CCP devs say things...'most experienced'.

Most experienced against what and who? It's the same thing with him saying the Caldari State is patently superior militarily against the Gallente Federation, when I thought prior PF (like Iyen-Oursta) indicated that the GalFed is better at winning wars and the Caldari State is better at winning battles.

They really need a political or historical specialist when coming out with statements like that, because it seems arbitrary.

[Silas Vitalia]

Any outcome from upcoming PF fights with the Federation depend entirely on what range CCP decides to derp an amarr cap fleet on top of moros blob 


1) I think there have likely been an awful lot of ground-up 'modernization' efforts going on in the Imperial Navy since Vak-Atioth.  I think there's enough 'progressive' forces at work that would be working damned hard to modernize ships, tactics, and overall strategy to reflect modern EVE warfare over the last several decades.  The imperial navy that got its teeth kicked in at Vak-Atioth is -not- the same Imperial Navy flying around today.

2) Timing is everything.  Short engagements, surprise attacks, these are traditional weak spots for the Imperials.   If they really are 'gearing up' for an attack, they have months and months to plan, to get the momentum going, to leverage the ridiculous juggernaught of numbers and forces to apply to a target for a war.

IE the longer the Imperials have to plan and get mobilized, the more they will likely 'curbstomp' the opponent through sheer numbers.  Border raids, behind the lines stuff, etc, the Imperials are not the best at this.

Planning for a year in advance to hit x solar systems across a directed war campaign, they will trounce.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

So, yes, if the Republic tossed a few caps over into Empire space, they should get stomped:

They should. Yet last time they did, they didn't.

When the Elder fleet invaded the Empire that was more than merely 'throwing a few caps over the border". The Empire also suffered from mismanagement through Karsoth. Furthermore the military leaders practically allowed the Matari troops to gather at Mekhios.

There's no way they should have stomped the Elder fleet before Jamyl's arrival, especially because that exactly what she let her trusted men in the Navy ensure.

As to what CCP says... I didn't see the IN come out on top of the offical CCP rankings. Last time I checked it was ranked behind both Caldari and Gallente Navies.

As to what CCP Falcon says... what Seriphyn said.


As to what Silas said:
1) the modernization of the Imperial Navy... Heideran had little interest in that, moving towards peace anyway. Worse even, Karsoth after him had every reason to weaken the IN and apparently worked actively towards that. Any modernization will probably have begun with the return of Jamyl.

In regard to 2) I'm inclined to agree, they are stronger given the time to bring their machinations to apply force.

[Lucas Raholan]

IF this question was being asked pre-republic fleet then yes the In would beat the living shit out of the Matari...however the Republic Fleet is highly capable in its own right so the outcome is in debate...I doubt CCP Falcon has the resources to have a Amarr fleet that significantly outnumbers the Matari Fleet unless he employs the use of Players as part of that fleet, which is what I think he may do, rally Amarr Loyalists to fight alongside beefing up their numerical advantage.

I would imagine Corps and Alliances such as PIE/CVA will be more then willing to carry this out.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

That would mean Matari helping the other side and would result in a numerical minority on the Amarr side, really.

[Silas Vitalia]

I think they could run some very nice 'Imperial invasion' events using the same 'sansha spawn' system they did prior to Incursions.

Pick a few Minmatar or Federation systems and start spawning 100 Imperial Battleships for capsuleers to shoot or defend.  You'd get the 'huge numbers' and 'disposable masses of ships' vibe right away.

[Gesakaarin]

As regards the Imperial Navy I just think there's been few situations where its inherent strengths of being the most "traditional" Navy in that it's the one best able to conduct the good old fashioned Jutland style of slugfest where its sheer numbers, firepower and defences in a line of battle ensures victory. Rather, it does always seem to be a small band of heroic rebel Rifters blowing up the Imperial Death Stars because of the inefficiencies in Imperial Navy bureaucracy, its deeply hierarchical command structure either being too slow or unable to respond, or because of staff officers being appointed more on their birth and status than their actual ability.

The problem I think is that fictionally, the Imperial Navy is designed to fight large-scale wars of conquest through a continued series of decisive Fleet engagements but most events/arcs are more small scale affairs or like the Elder invasion where the Amarr are written to lose from the outset and are too slow to get the lumbering leviathan of the Golden Fleet into action.

[Pieter Tuulinen]

Most experienced against what and who? It's the same thing with him saying the Caldari State is patently superior militarily against the Gallente Federation, when I thought prior PF (like Iyen-Oursta) indicated that the GalFed is better at winning wars and the Caldari State is better at winning battles.

The way I understood it is that the Caldari Navy is better at system defence and the Gallente Federation is better at force projection - to the point where CalNav would get curbstomped if it attacked the Federation but would wear down the FedNav fleet if they attacked.

Also caused  by the differences in quality between Federal ground troops and Caldari ground troops - but lately CCP have been playing the Federal troops up as awkward conscript units with poor unit cohesion, morale and a dependency on addictive combat stims - so  I'm not sure that tracks anymore.