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[Synthia]

Something mentioned in a few threads recently, relates to people expressing unhappiness that actions their character has taken in the past keep being brought up, in discussions on the IGS or the Summit.

Example:
Character A says in YC 113: "I am an agent of the Guardian Angels"
Character B says in YC 115: "Character A, are you still an Angel or is that passe?"
Player A says "Why can't B just let it go?" or similar, occasionally accuses B of holding a grudge OOC.
Player A is unhappy that their actions in YC113 are mentioned in YC115.
Occasionally, community pressure is put on Player B, to express disapproval, and suggest that B should "let it go".

My question is, why should B do such a thing ?

If character B dislikes character A, because of A's actions, and A has never apologised, or made amends, or publically recanted their previous position, why should character B not bring up A's past misdeeds ?

If B is forced by community pressure to "drop it", is that not against the principle of letting players play their character as they wish ? almost god-moding ?
If A has their misdeeds forgiven, does that not turn them into a Mary Sue ? Where they can do anything, and people will still love them?


For the record, several times on this forum, players of CTCS have been accused of holding OOC grudges, due to mentioning past events. To the best of my knowledge, no CTCS member holds any OOC grudges.

[Vincent Pryce]

Something mentioned in a few threads recently, relates to people expressing unhappiness that actions their character has taken in the past keep being brought up, in discussions on the IGS or the Summit.

Example:
Character A says in YC 113: "I am an agent of the Guardian Angels"
Character B says in YC 115: "Character A, are you still an Angel or is that passe?"
Player A says "Why can't B just let it go?" or similar, occasionally accuses B of holding a grudge OOC.
Player A is unhappy that their actions in YC113 are mentioned in YC115.
Occasionally, community pressure is put on Player B, to express disapproval, and suggest that B should "let it go".

My question is, why should B do such a thing ?

If character B dislikes character A, because of A's actions, and A has never apologised, or made amends, or publically recanted their previous position, why should character B not bring up A's past misdeeds ?

If B is forced by community pressure to "drop it", is that not against the principle of letting players play their character as they wish ? almost god-moding ?
If A has their misdeeds forgiven, does that not turn them into a Mary Sue ? Where they can do anything, and people will still love them?


For the record, several times on this forum, players of CTCS have been accused of holding OOC grudges, due to mentioning past events. To the best of my knowledge, no CTCS member holds any OOC grudges.

Player A should suck it up and live with their choices and quit bitching and try to change the situation by actual gameplay. That is the charm of EVE. Everything you did, affects everything you will do. So if they were a vicious Pirate they shouldn't expect  a special treatment if someone in the living and breathing game world asks them about it.

If I'd change Vince to a humanitarian with a cause in the future, I would fully expect people to call him on his past actions and crimes and doubt his motives as he is an Angel Cartel slaver and a human trafficker now. I'd expect I'd have to work my ass off to IC convince there's been actual change and not expect handvavium to make it disappear.

[Steffanie Saissore]

As long as it is all IC, past deeds are fair game in my opinion.  The character made their bed and has to sleep in it.  If Character A was a heartless pirate (or whatever) during their first year or so of playing and then did a complete turn around and became a 'face', they can't simply erase the past.  Especially not when there are forum posts, log files, and other records of their actions.  If they really are trying to turn a new leaf, all the more power to them, but they cannot expect people to simply forget.

In just the month I have played EVE, the setting does seem to play upon the 'by your actions you will be known' kind of perspective; people are going to call you on the things you have done and as long as it is IC let it happen.

[Makkal]

 CTCS?

Words and deed have consequences. Characters in this game get in trouble because there are *rumors* about them, let alone them posting on the IGS about their hanging out with Angels.

That said, I see no reason to not deal with a possible OOC grudge OOCly. The problem is more that people deal with these things in a non-constructive way.

As long as it is all IC...

Nothing is all IC.

There might be players who never interact OOC but they're not going to be the ones posting or lurking in Backstage.

[Silas Vitalia]

As is often the case, there is sometimes be friction ooc for kicking sand in someone's face IC.

But as in real life, other people can only bother you as much as you let them. 

[Merdaneth]

Well, for many players (that I have observed) the odds of people bringing up events from the characters past that a player dislikes to have mentioned, is largely dependent on the OOC relations between players.

Well liked *players* are forgiven for actions by their character must faster than players who are less popular.

For well-liked players, other players have their characters make up convenient reasons to heal an IC rift, while with less-liked players the same players will make up reasons to enlarge the rift.

EVE RP is ruled by OOC considerations as much as it is ruled by IC considerations, its better to not have to many illusions about such things.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

+1 to what Merdaneth said. Not saying I think it's good how it is, but that's how things are.

[Graelyn]

Who cares!

Blow up their towers and ships! 

[Saede Riordan]

Well, for many players (that I have observed) the odds of people bringing up events from the characters past that a player dislikes to have mentioned, is largely dependent on the OOC relations between players.

Well liked *players* are forgiven for actions by their character must faster than players who are less popular.

For well-liked players, other players have their characters make up convenient reasons to heal an IC rift, while with less-liked players the same players will make up reasons to enlarge the rift.

EVE RP is ruled by OOC considerations as much as it is ruled by IC considerations, its better to not have to many illusions about such things.

I've found this to be unfortunately true. It shouldn't really be the case, but it might not be able to be helped.

fortunately being EVE, this:

Who cares!

Blow up their towers and ships! 

Is always an option ♥

[Steffanie Saissore]

As long as it is all IC...

Nothing is all IC.

There might be players who never interact OOC but they're not going to be the ones posting or lurking in Backstage.

This is true.  Might sound naive of me, but I assume (unless there's clear indication otherwise) that comments, jests, jeers, and whatnot are driven by character not the player.

That said, I do realize that OOC stuff does creep in at times.

[Gottii]

I dunno, Ive always disliked a lot of retconning when it comes to peoples IC pasts. 

The really special thing about EVE RP is the ability to create a story stretching over the years and that choices have consequences.

Trying to wipe out someones history in the past kinda does away with those things, in my opinion.

[Lyn Farel]

Well, for many players (that I have observed) the odds of people bringing up events from the characters past that a player dislikes to have mentioned, is largely dependent on the OOC relations between players.

Well liked *players* are forgiven for actions by their character must faster than players who are less popular.

For well-liked players, other players have their characters make up convenient reasons to heal an IC rift, while with less-liked players the same players will make up reasons to enlarge the rift.

EVE RP is ruled by OOC considerations as much as it is ruled by IC considerations, its better to not have to many illusions about such things.

Echo chambers and all that.

* Lyn Farel is obsessed with echo chambers and already knows it, thanks.

[Silver Night]

I think there are a couple good points here on either 'side'. I don't think they are mutually exclusive, and I don't think the negative ramifications have any easy answer - but I think certain approaches work better than others.

1) The history of your character can and should stay with you. I don't pretend that Silver was never a Sansha loyalist (though I'm happy to put all kinds of spin on it IC). He was, and if someone IC wants to call him on it whatever their motivation is then fair enough - and people do, from time to time. It is part of the character. I would not pressure those people OOC to drop it because it isn't fair or anything like that - it is totally legit. I would also hope that other people wouldn't pressure those people.

2) The other issue here is related to the motivation for bringing these things up IC. 'But Silver' I hear you say, 'Didn't you just say that it is fair whatever the motivation?' I did say that. However, there are certainly cases where OOC feeling leaks into IC. Things like this (while entirely legitimate IC) can be a symptom of an OOC problem - even while being legitimate in themselves. In general, if you feel like that is what is happening, I'd recommending getting in touch with the person, and seeing if you can sort things out or at least make sure there isn't an OOC issue.

Back when I was in EM, we had a sort of rule - I don't remember specifically (and someone from EM can probably quote it) - but it was along the lines of never try to solve an OOC problem IC. It's a very immersionist alliance, but the situation where they would 100% of the time encourage people to talk OOC would be to resolve any kind of OOC problem or miscommunication - even if it was just a quick 'Hey, this is OOC, just want to let you know my character just really doesn't like x that your character did, but it's all IC, and OOC we're cool'.

Sometimes you can't resolve it, sometimes one or both sides don't particularly want to resolve it - that's why I say that there isn't always an easy answer. In those situation, I still wouldn't say that OOC pressure is appropriate when the issue is this specific behavior. It's obviously a bit different if we start getting into the territory of harassment or anything like that. If all someone does is call out your character's past, it might be annoying, but it is your character's past. Ignore them, would generally be my advice, but it can of course be a bit difficult.

[Makkal]

Personally, I don't log into EVE just to drag icons in and out of my hanger, watch timers, and blow up little red crosses on my screens.

I log on because there are other humans there to interact with. Makkal does her thing, but I also do mine. I don't feel the need to be buddies with everyone, but I like to maintain cordial relations. And I don't want people to feel that Makkal reacting to someone in a negative or unpleasant manner (jokes to the contrary aside, there are characters Makkal dislikes and wishes harm upon) is the player acting out some sort of personal grievance.

Likewise, there are good and bad ways to handle such a (possible) occurrence. Snarking about the player OOC or complaining to the board about the PC's behavior being the result of the player's rustled jummies isn't a good way to solve interplayer problems.

[Aldrith Shutaq]

I suppose this really comes down to one thing: be true to your characters. OOC I love several people Aldy has big grudges against: Vincent, Silas, and Karmilla are some examples. There are a rare few people I dislike OOC that I make Aldy keep cordial relations with because nothing has happened to their relationship IC.

Of course, if some people do not keep to these strict IC/OOC separation standards, no one can force them. I personally don't like the idea of making IC decisions based on OOC desires, but it happens and in the end people play this game to have fun, not be bound to a needy fictional character's limitations.