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Author Topic: Reclaiming the Caldari: Will CCP dare?  (Read 8041 times)

Makkal

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Reclaiming the Caldari: Will CCP dare?
« on: 08 May 2013, 11:41 »

Breaking off from the other thread because it deserves its own.

The Empress or the current Sarum heir decides to forcibly end the separation between (Amarr) church and State.

Do you think this is likely?

What do you think the fall out would be?
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Aria Jenneth

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Re: Reclaiming the Caldari: Will CCP dare?
« Reply #1 on: 08 May 2013, 11:54 »

I think it reasonably likely, and I think the most immediate fallout is likely to be a resounding "sproing" as the golden Amarr fleet meets the hardened defensive structure that is The Citadel and is predictably repelled. Invading the civilization-level equivalent of a reclusive survivalist compound is not likely to go well absent overwhelming force-- you can depend on the residents to abruptly forget their differences and pick up guns.

The really interesting question is why the Amarr would have some semi-reasonable cause to think that it would work and be worth it. I've already held forth on that topic a good bit today; my brain's getting tired.

Edit:

Reposting. In addtion to CCP's need to maintain the storyline balance of power so that it doesn't have to rewrite everybody as conquered puppet-states of the Amarr (or anybody else):

* There's currently no other trouble between the Amarr and the Caldari, though something could come up in the course of winding up (please God) Heth's storyline, so these rumblings in the Empire seem like dark omens. Alternatively, the "Reclaiming" saber-rattling could be the equivalent of a static charge waiting for something to ground it-- like a Heth-related lightning rod.

* The Caldari are not Amarrian believers. They are heathens, and must, according to the more conservative Amarr (as well as others if pressed), eventually be Reclaimed for God one way or another.

* The State is currently in a state of disarray verging on civil war.

* The border the State is watching is not the Amarrian border. Warnings about the Amarr from various State loyalists have gone largely unheeded-- and even such loyalists normally assume that the Amarr would not attempt to Reclaim the Caldari unless the Federation and Republic were no longer threats.

* Really conservative Amarr have a bad tendency not to fairly weigh the strengths of other cultures or their militaries. "Have faith. God will grant victory to our righteous cause!" is an excellent stand-in for careful strategy where morale is concerned, though not so much in terms of practical consequences. IC reactions to Vak'Atioth suggest that the Amarr still have not fully adjusted to living in a world where they cannot steamroll everybody in sight, and CCP has a demonstrated tendency to pick up IC tropes it likes and run with them.

* The Federation and the Republic are now on the outs; the Amarr may very well sense an opportunity to roll up all three of their competitors, one by one-- but the Federation and Republic are on guard against Amarrian incursion, and the Amarr will need a lot of additional forces to guarantee victory against either one singly. Pity the Caldari war effort has stalled and they're wrapped up in their own internal power struggles. "Oh, wait. We can do something about that."

* There may be certain plans within the Empire that the Amarr believe could place the Caldari State into their hands with minimal loss of power or war material-- especially if they can seize the center of power and ensure that the CEP (or Heth, or both) are dancing to their tune. They demonstrated in their handling of the Minmatar that they have no qualms about turning existing power structures to their advantage.

* Net result: massive but arguably understandable miscalculation with terrible consequences for Caldari/Amarr relations: even if the Amarr seize the whole CEP, the Caldari people aren't going to recognize any leadership under the control of a foreign power. The Caldari pull together as they tend to in times of crisis, and the Amarr incursion finds itself facing the full military might of The Citadel. House Sarum withdraws with heavy losses. The Caldari State formally withdraws from its alliance with the Amarr and fortifies that border, as well.
« Last Edit: 08 May 2013, 12:01 by Aria Jenneth »
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Desiderya

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Re: Reclaiming the Caldari: Will CCP dare?
« Reply #2 on: 08 May 2013, 13:24 »

Would certainly be interesting.
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Katrina Oniseki

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Re: Reclaiming the Caldari: Will CCP dare?
« Reply #3 on: 08 May 2013, 14:11 »

I'm curious how the Amarr loyalists will handle such a change. I already have a good idea how the Caldari loyalists will.

Samira Kernher

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Re: Reclaiming the Caldari: Will CCP dare?
« Reply #4 on: 08 May 2013, 14:19 »

It'll be a huge shakeup for Samira if it happens. She's one of the few people who earnestly supports the Amarr-Caldari alliance (as more than just 'convenience', she's actually very sad that no one else on either side seems to care about the other). She believes they need to be Reclaimed, but I think she's not really prepared to have it actually happen so soon.
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Silas Vitalia

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Re: Reclaiming the Caldari: Will CCP dare?
« Reply #5 on: 08 May 2013, 14:25 »

I'm curious how the Amarr loyalists will handle such a change. I already have a good idea how the Caldari loyalists will.

I think it depends entirely on the circumstances of any schism and how live event pew pew is set up.

If it's a solo house Sarum pulling a Kador and getting blapped to ruin by superior defensive forces...  :roll:
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Esna Pitoojee

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Re: Reclaiming the Caldari: Will CCP dare?
« Reply #6 on: 08 May 2013, 14:26 »

Ditto for Esna.

However.

Keep in mind that they seem to be deliberately making all the factions go face-in-wall stupid in order to effect an immediate turnover in all faction leadership.

So, depends on how fast things happen.
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I like the implications of Gallentians being punched in the face by walking up to a Minmatar as they so freely use another person's culture as a fad.

Silas Vitalia

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Re: Reclaiming the Caldari: Will CCP dare?
« Reply #7 on: 08 May 2013, 14:39 »

Comedy:

Que Interior Imperial Palace, Athra:

Jamyl smiles and sips her breakfast coffee and eats her toast.

Imperial Navy Commander: Your Grace, Our latest grain shipments to the State are going smoothly! Shall I order the military escort to greet our State allies in the traditional 'gun ports open' salute?

Evil-Spirit-Jovian-Super AI takes over as she has a siezure/spasm.

BELAY THAT ORDER! FIRE EVERYTHING!

Uh, at who? Our greatest allies for the last five years?

EVVVVVVVVERRRRRRYYYYYYYOOOOOOOOOOOONEEEEEEEEEEE


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Aldrith Shutaq

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Re: Reclaiming the Caldari: Will CCP dare?
« Reply #8 on: 08 May 2013, 14:45 »

It will probably happen. It seems to me that the powers-that-be have taken an interest in the Cal-Matari alliance idea. First step in making it happen is breaking the old alliances. You can see the pattern coming.
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Lithium Flower

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Re: Reclaiming the Caldari: Will CCP dare?
« Reply #9 on: 08 May 2013, 17:22 »

Silas!! That was PURRRFEEECTTTT  :cube: :cube: :cube:

About the topic, I think first the Empire would probably go reclaim first some Federation, since it was them who stopped them in first place, and Federation is warmongering abolitioninsts. On the other hand it was the Empire who halted Federation anti-slavery wars. Attacking the caldari now instead of reclaiming both minmatar and gallente first is pure suicide for the Empire.
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Svetlana Scarlet

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Re: Reclaiming the Caldari: Will CCP dare?
« Reply #10 on: 08 May 2013, 17:31 »

If this happens, I will be...unamused. It would certainly put us in a bit of a hard place...again.

Not to mention it would likely get a lot of resistance from the Khanid and Tash-Murkon, both of which have worked to cultivate strong relations with the Caldari. Arbitrarily shattering an alliance that has existed for a century is not going to make very many people on either side very happy.

And anyone who thinks the Caldari would ally with the Minmatar...no. I don't see that happening. There's no strategic value there for the Caldari, especially with how insane Minmatar foreign policy seems to be.
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Aria Jenneth

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Re: Reclaiming the Caldari: Will CCP dare?
« Reply #11 on: 08 May 2013, 17:32 »

About the topic, I think first the Empire would probably go reclaim first some Federation, since it was them who stopped them in first place, and Federation is warmongering abolitioninsts. On the other hand it was the Empire who halted Federation anti-slavery wars. Attacking the caldari now instead of reclaiming both minmatar and gallente first is pure suicide for the Empire.

That's the longstanding conventional wisdom, which is why I suspect it's about to go out the airlock. Neither the Federation nor the Republic is a good mark for a sneak attack.

An optimistic Amarrian, with God as copilot, might start getting ideas about that unsuspecting neighbor.
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Aria Jenneth

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Re: Reclaiming the Caldari: Will CCP dare?
« Reply #12 on: 08 May 2013, 17:36 »

If this happens, I will be...unamused. It would certainly put us in a bit of a hard place...again.

Not to mention it would likely get a lot of resistance from the Khanid and Tash-Murkon, both of which have worked to cultivate strong relations with the Caldari. Arbitrarily shattering an alliance that has existed for a century is not going to make very many people on either side very happy.

And anyone who thinks the Caldari would ally with the Minmatar...no. I don't see that happening. There's no strategic value there for the Caldari, especially with how insane Minmatar foreign policy seems to be.

Don't know that it's arbitrary. I've been IC'ly muttering dark warnings about the Caldari not giving the Amarr enough credit as a threat for years. I admit I'll take it as a massive IC vindication if it happens.  :D

Also: yes, Matari foreign policy seems a little crazy-- in much the same way as State foreign policy is a little crazy. They both want their own traditions and beliefs respected, damn it! And to hell with these weird Gallentean notions of "inalienable rights" and "due process."
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Desiderya

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Re: Reclaiming the Caldari: Will CCP dare?
« Reply #13 on: 08 May 2013, 17:37 »

How anyone could react?
Simple.


BURN ALL THE BABIES!
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Katrina Oniseki

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Re: Reclaiming the Caldari: Will CCP dare?
« Reply #14 on: 08 May 2013, 17:43 »

Don't know that it's arbitrary. I've been IC'ly muttering dark warnings about the Caldari not giving the Amarr enough credit as a threat for years. I admit I'll take it as a massive IC vindication if it happens.  :D

Likewise. Katrina doesn't trust the Amarr any more than she trusts the Gallente. The difference is that Amarr are infinitely easier to work with and do business with than the Gallente are. Gallente whine, moan, complain, and blabber on about insufferably annoying ethics and morality.... Amarr will just play a hard ballgame with you over the details of the contract, while doing so with the utmost cold composure and tact.
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