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[Samira Kernher]

Having a DNA-confirmed piece of her body on its own is not damning, because as Mithra said, it was a divine miracle. God could have risen the original body, or he could have given her a new one and placed her soul within it. Logic in that case does not apply. You'd have expected God to destroy the original body as he recreated her in a new one, as surely God is not so sloppy, so it would be a bit iffy, but not enough on its own I feel.

And IIRC, the official alibi was that there was no explanation. She was back, the means were divine, the end.

But the brain itself, showing signs of burn scanning, is a very, very clear indication that a cloning occurred. The only way I could see it being rationalized away is if all the Heirs had their scanners on and had simply had no Medical Clones or disabled fluid routers. But if all but Jamyl had their scanners turned off for the event (or if their capsules didn't have scanners at all, due to Sacred Flesh), it would be damning.

(this is assuming the other Heirs were also capsuleers, I wasn't there so I have no idea)

[Samira Kernher]

This also goes into weather they have retconned all capsuleers as having to 'die' a first time before getting their careers going.

No source in-game states that you have a pre-career death... at least, I didn't see any when I started this character a month ago. It was only in the expansion beta to my understanding and was removed before the expansion went live.

And even then, that change was made after the Succession Trials. Even when CCP was going with the idea, they specifically said it was a change to the training regimes, not a retcon, thus anyone who had been trained prior to it did not go through it.

[Morwen Lagann]

This also goes into weather they have retconned all capsuleers as having to 'die' a first time before getting their careers going.

No source in-game states that you have a pre-career death... at least, I didn't see any when I started this character a month ago. It was only in the expansion beta to my understanding and was removed before the expansion went live.

And even then, that change was made after the Succession Trials. Even when CCP was going with the idea, they specifically said it was a change to the training regimes, not a retcon, thus anyone who had been trained prior to it did not go through it.

There was, briefly, on TQ. It has since been removed/retconned.

[Silas Vitalia]

I just have so much sad face for Amarr loyalists, as no one can take them seriously IC without putting the derp blinders on.

It's really, really, really unfortunate.

[Lyn Farel]

To my understanding, the corpse's mere existence does not mean anything. The Shathol'Syn ritual as it was performed in the live event demands that Jamyl explode her capsule as a means of committing suicide; this would, logically, produce a corpse.

This.

What ? Jamyl was a capsuleer before her death ? Wtf ? And the sacred flesh ?

[Tiberious Thessalonia]

All of the heirs were, I believe.

[Silas Vitalia]

Them all being capsuleers might have been more a product of game engine and doing the event LIVE and restrictions with such things. Nevertheless it's never been retconned and they were all in pods so...

[Mithfindel]

To my understanding, the corpse's mere existence does not mean anything. The Shathol'Syn ritual as it was performed in the live event demands that Jamyl explode her capsule as a means of committing suicide; this would, logically, produce a corpse.

This.

What ? Jamyl was a capsuleer before her death ? Wtf ? And the sacred flesh ?

Sacred Flesh says you cannot be cloned. The "euthanized and cloned to a capsuleer body" is relatively recent thing, and one you don't even know about unless you have sound on during the new player tutorials (and not sure if it's in the current version of NPE). Before that, it could be assumed that you could well be a capsuleer and use the body you were born with - just do not get killed.

As a matter of fact, I understand that Heth is currently the only non-capsuleer head of state. Jamyl? Capsuleer, mentioned several times over (that Abaddon of hers was capsule-commanded). Roden? Yup. Shakor? At least in the original chrons he was a capsuleer, and then abducted by the Jove.

On the Heirs: I understand that anyone could be implanted and stuck in a capsule at least once. Mindlock risk happens when they disconnect, right? So technically, for suicidal purposes, they don't need to care about mindlock. And they're most likely implanted to Hek and back already, so the cost of the implants is not a concern.

[Silas Vitalia]

To my understanding, the corpse's mere existence does not mean anything. The Shathol'Syn ritual as it was performed in the live event demands that Jamyl explode her capsule as a means of committing suicide; this would, logically, produce a corpse.

This.

What ? Jamyl was a capsuleer before her death ? Wtf ? And the sacred flesh ?

Sacred Flesh says you cannot be cloned. The "euthanized and cloned to a capsuleer body" is relatively recent thing, and one you don't even know about unless you have sound on during the new player tutorials (and not sure if it's in the current version of NPE). Before that, it could be assumed that you could well be a capsuleer and use the body you were born with - just do not get killed.

As a matter of fact, I understand that Heth is currently the only non-capsuleer head of state. Jamyl? Capsuleer, mentioned several times over (that Abaddon of hers was capsule-commanded). Roden? Yup. Shakor? At least in the original chrons he was a capsuleer, and then abducted by the Jove.

On the Heirs: I understand that anyone could be implanted and stuck in a capsule at least once. Mindlock risk happens when they disconnect, right? So technically, for suicidal purposes, they don't need to care about mindlock. And they're most likely implanted to Hek and back already, so the cost of the implants is not a concern.

It's certainly a bit convenient that the heads of all 5 families would be capsule-compatible considering it's something like .00000001% of the population can even interphase with the Jove tech to begin with....

Or is it.....

[Samira Kernher]

I get the feeling that genetics is only an issue for the common resident of New Eden. Extremely wealthy individuals probably have the ability to pay exorbitant amounts for training/high-tech specialized equipment that permits them to access the pod without mindlocking despite not having the appropriate gene. That's the only explanation I can think of.

Although I think CCP has previously said, "they were chosen for their position because they were capsuleers," which just means that baseliners pretty much have no chance to be head of anything anymore unless they pull a Heth. Which might be a reason why the common Caldari citizen still likes him.

[Louella Dougans]

it's apparently in the empyrean age book, that no body was found.

so I don't know, stuff written in the books retconning things that actually occurred ingame? 

[Aldrith Shutaq]

Empress corpse or no, everyone with half a brain knows that Jamyl died that day. The body would just be a physical reminder of the fact, and is more of a symbol than anything. Whether or not it is a powerful symbol or not is up to CCP as they control how the people and power-dealers of the Empire would react.

Honestly I'm just waiting for the day I can go Tetrimon and give the finger to the Theology Council.

[Samira Kernher]

Aldrith, you heretic. /tsk

[Silas Vitalia]

Empress corpse or no, everyone with half a brain knows that Jamyl died that day. The body would just be a physical reminder of the fact, and is more of a symbol than anything. Whether or not it is a powerful symbol or not is up to CCP as they control how the people and power-dealers of the Empire would react.

Honestly I'm just waiting for the day I can go Tetrimon and give the finger to the Theology Council.

You should consider contacting the RKN representative, as many Tetrimon supporters were sheltered in the Kingdom....

[Publius Valerius]

Hi to all, and sorry for any misspellings.

What Silas said. You don't need the stuff from the book to have a completely rock-solid reason for hating Jamyl as an Amarrian. All the evidence you need was provided in the ingame news way back when.

I just have so much sad face for Amarr loyalists, as no one can take them seriously IC without putting the derp blinders on.

It's really, really, really unfortunate.

Empress corpse or no, everyone with half a brain knows that Jamyl died that day. The body would just be a physical reminder of the fact, and is more of a symbol than anything. Whether or not it is a powerful symbol or not is up to CCP as they control how the people and power-dealers of the Empire would react.

Honestly I'm just waiting for the day I can go Tetrimon and give the finger to the Theology Council.

I think, Spoon Thumb has made long time ago on the old eve-o forum along and well thought out comment about: How we in-character also know that there is something wrong with Jamyl. Sadly I havent found a link. He had put it very nicely and in better words as I ever can. By the way, if he reads this, thanks for the "Khaldari" term I love it.

Ardishapur Family Criticizes Imperial Educational Standards

Edit:  I think it would be useful to double use these threads as a basis for chronicling OOC the events, linking to appropriate threads, to later build the Evelopedia page.

I take some freedom and come back to the amarr arc. I think the amarr arc and the gallente arc have one thing in common and this the question: What would you give up for security and survival. I the amarr arc is the question ones around education in the federation around "as a breach of their rights, and an invasion of their privacy or civil liberty" (as mention in the speech). I know this summery form me comes VERY SHORT AND DOESNT SHOWS THE WHOLE DEEPNESS. But maybe it helps to come back to the topic. So to easy down the topic. We could form it into a question. The question could be around a trade-off decision; where we as citizens make a decision around a indifference curve. Which means we can make decisions along this curve. One side would be "resources (capital, labour) for security and survival" on the other side would be "resources (capital, labour) for something else as security and survival". In the case of the Federation would be this something else: "personal rights, invasion of personal privacy or civil liberty". So that we could ask:

How much of your personal rights, invasion in your privacy or civil liberty would you sacrifice for your security and survival? You as individual and you as a member of this the state (as in the end it is the state, which can give at least a little guarantee). Where were your place in the indifference curve?


______________________
As for the Amarr, it would be education. As the main page said ones, it as something very important for the Amarr (as the old intro mention).

How much of your education would you sacrifice for your security and survival? You as individual and you as a member of this the state (as in the end it is the state, which can give at least a little guarantee). Where were your place in the indifference curve?


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Before you find your personal answer, know that if you choice to put all resources away form "security and survival", that you land in here. So you cant choose to put all your resources away of "security and survival". But what is with the other extrem? Can you put almost all of your resources in "security and survival"? So maybe that would be my second question, if you find your perfect place in the indifference curve. Say to me, why you not choice to give 1isk more to security and survival?

The speech: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=208117&find=unread
The article: http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=5032&tid=2