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[Silas Vitalia]

I don't know if there is any PF stating the relative sizes of the House Fleets, but I'd imagine each one quite small compared to overall Imperial fleet, but all combined perhaps just as large?

The Imperial Navy draws forces from all houses, but is the independent force, so to speak.  Each house has their own private fleets that secure their own borders and if I recall also contribute forces to the main fleets.

You'll remember Jamyl confiscating Kador fleets and rolling them into the overall Imperial Navy after his Federation Invasion herp derp.

I don't believe any lone house could hold off the Imperial Navy at this point without a few other houses working in unison as allies.  The best you could hope for in some doomsday civil war scenario would be each house 'calling in their people' and mass defections from Imperial Navy as they all go home to join their House Fleets in their time of need, etc.

Khanid managed to pull off a stalemate and keep most if the Imp. Navy at bay but he was in charge of the Imperial Navy before his defection and took a -substantial- chunk of the forces with him when he left, probably gutting a good amount of the officer core and command personnel as well, likely all hand-picked by him etc.

[Samira Kernher]

Just a thought.

Are the regions ruled by the various Imperial Heirs large enough to survive as independent kingdoms as per Khanid?

If so what would the Imperial RP community make of the empire breaking up & balkanising, eventually settling into two or three rival factions? Maybe with groups like the various capsuleer schools staying strictly neutral?

Yes, it's possible. Khanid was one of those regions, not really particularly any larger or better equipped. As a feudal empire, each region would be largely ruled independently by the heirs (provided they maintain the policies set down by the Empress). House Fleets seem to be something that's been crushed by policies over the years, for the reason that without complete military superiority the Emperor would really have no way of enforcing his/her will. So any defection would require a good amount of politics beforehand to get the Imperial Navy to stand down, to get portions of the Imperial Navy to defect, to ally with other heirs/empires, or to exploit a situation that takes the Navy's attention (as Khanid did).

[Publius Valerius]

There is a chron where a businessman travels by jumping from clone to clone and he is informed that he was present at some occasion where he clearly was not.

He notices from the recording that the infomorph inside his clone has some mannerism that he does not and he himself realizes that it was not him or something like that.

Yet there is no way to prove that he was not there.

See?

So? This is a chron that display info which characters likely have no access to, so it is inadmissable IC. Even then, its just one story, compared to thousands of people who want to have multiple clones but can't for reasons unknown.

All IC sources point to the fact that you cannot have multiple clones.

If you can have multiple clones, it would make more sense to clone on supersoldier (Boba Fett like) and use them, instead of cloning lots of grunts.

True.

Actually we dont need to flesh out, why Jamyl shouldnt be empress. We just need a way, which could kill her. After, that a new trail would start and a normal person (no zombie bitch/capsuleer/etc) could become Emperor/Empress, without violating the religious laws of the empire (no trail, orgies, drugs, etc). One of the heir could take over, Yonis etc..... As for the argument, that it would be a fast change in the leadership, I dont buy it; to be more precisely, I dont see it as something negative. I think; that the Amarr Empire has shown it is so STABLE/SOLID, that it -- the empire with its institutions (Hard: ministries, constitutions, laws, property rights, etc and Soft: informal restraints, sanctions, taboos, customs, traditions, code of conduct, etc) -- can survive even a bad leadership (see the Mad emperor). So it will also survive a fast change in the leadership too. Even more, that the new leadership would be without and black marks on its legitimacy; so that he/she could rule easy without any problem 300-500 years (and even more).

[lallara zhuul]

Well.

Actually all the characters have come across stories or even experiences where an infomorph is clearly utilizing more than one body across the cluster and separate identities that come with that capability.

Of course it depends on how you want to explain IC the existance of alts and account theft.

But to me, they are clear situations where the infomorph (the player) uses several different bodies (characters) during their lifetime where each and every one of those bodies are different legal entities.

There is even a part of the capsuleer community where they trade different bodies for ISK, bodies that have gone through modification to be better at one thing or another that a capsuleer could use it for (this point of view would actually eliminate the possibility of a capsuleer actually learning anything from the skill books.)

It is pretty much in the eyes of the beholder that what information that is accessible to a character IC.

[Matariki Rain]

I played in a strong and long-lasting framework where alts were "associates", not other bodies. The character bazaars and such were essentially job markets or mercenary contract markets, bringing together people who had particular skill sets with others who had the ISK to hire them.

Until there are changes to the gameplay framework to allow you to recustomise your main body I'm inclined to prefer the view that we haven't yet worked out ways to deal with the sudden body dysphoria of transferring into a completely different form without going even more nuts than is usual for podders. I know that sex and race changes were discussed at last year's Fanfest, so this may well be the sort of thing that'll change in lore as people explore the limits of infomorph psychology and improve our training and responses. For now, though, my default would be that the people who say they've done this are either nuts-and-unreliable-narrators or nuts-because-they-broke-their-heads-while-doing-this.

Your defaults could be quite different.

OB Amarr: Is there anything that needs to happen to make the Amarr arc cohere? My impression was that Jamyl was going to continue to be a point of contention, but that she's actually a useful type of contentious subject. It's entirely plausible to claim and believe that whatever happened to bring about the current Jamyl was God's work, using whatever tools God chose to use. What else is there in the Amarrian cultural milieu that could do with some development and direction?

[Esna Pitoojee]

The shift so far seems to be in examining how the Amarr are handling their forced contact with cultures and forces beyond their control. In some ways it's pretty obvious, but others, you need to dig a bit deeper.

For instance, the chronicle where the head of the Imperial Navy was being put on trial for not charging fruitlessly into the resurgent Nation forces, and Jamyl had to step in to keep him alive, because he - unlike everyone else in the Empire's ancient, deep-set hierarchy - understood that Nation represented a threat entirely different from what the Imperial Navy had faced in the past, and the Empire could not expect to handle it the same way it had handled things in the past.

[Sepherim]

I agree with Esna, it does seem like amarrian storyline is walking on that path between modernizing and tradition. The news item that started it walks that too, as it is a discussion on how should education be, and the voice of a Heir raised to try and get the Empress to do something. It's an interesting and important storyline to tell, and different to that of the Caldari falling into civil war, or the Republic reorganizing their government, so I believe it should go before another plot of changes in empire government.

As for the Holder's fleets, remember not only the Heirs have fleets. Back many years, I participated in the story arc between House Miyan and House Darabi, and both of them had their navies. Surely they were smaller than the Imperial Navy, but probably the sum of the navies of the Holders and the Heirs would be bigger than the Imperial Navy (before Kador lost his, at least) specially now in case the Khanid navy has joined them in being a "Heir fleet" after the King entered the amarrian government (not sure if it did). In my mind, I kinda see this as Legend of the Five Rings goes: different houses have very big and powerful armies, the Empress has his own but its way smaller than the ones of the Clans together (even counting that large parts of the House fleets would have temporarily been transferred to Imperial control), but the Empress has the moral authority and the will to eccert influence or even take control of those forces from time to time.

[Merdaneth]

Well.

Actually all the characters have come across stories or even experiences where an infomorph is clearly utilizing more than one body across the cluster and separate identities that come with that capability.

I haven't come across stories of people having two clones simultaneously. There may be the appearance of one controlling entity behind different people, but that's not the same as having multiple clones. If Merdaneth could split his personality into several different clones he would do it right now.

All these sources you mention are OOC sources, and you choose to translate them into IC in a certain way. But what I was referring to where IC sources. People that IC claim that their personalities are inhabiting multiple clones simultaneously. I haven't seen such claims.

In fact, my OOC sources say that you cannot activate multiple clones of the same character at the same time, although you can get additional accounts, which contain completely new characters with different attributes. Best IC reference you could do is that there are controlling entities behind several characters, but not of one character inhabiting different bodies simultaneously.

If you want to test your infomorph theory, just try to get two people to talk at two suspected infomorphs that have split up. You'll notice that there is only a single controlling entity behind them, as they have to pause to let the other speak.

[Silas Vitalia]

Having two active clones is a big no no from CONCORD.  Not happening.

[Samira Kernher]

What Silas said. It's quite possible to have two individual copies of you running around at once. It's just highly illegal.

[Silas Vitalia]

What Silas said. It's quite possible to have two individual copies of you running around at once. It's just highly illegal.

This is also why we might need more PF fleshing out of the explicit strings CONCORD holds on capsuleers.

[Morwen Lagann]

In the case of simultaneously active clones, there was an event arc way back in the day about this.

It's basically a fast-track to the very very top of CONCORD's most-wanted list. They will actively hunt you down.

[Lyn Farel]

I agree with Esna, it does seem like amarrian storyline is walking on that path between modernizing and tradition. The news item that started it walks that too, as it is a discussion on how should education be, and the voice of a Heir raised to try and get the Empress to do something. It's an interesting and important storyline to tell, and different to that of the Caldari falling into civil war, or the Republic reorganizing their government, so I believe it should go before another plot of changes in empire government.

As for the Holder's fleets, remember not only the Heirs have fleets. Back many years, I participated in the story arc between House Miyan and House Darabi, and both of them had their navies. Surely they were smaller than the Imperial Navy, but probably the sum of the navies of the Holders and the Heirs would be bigger than the Imperial Navy (before Kador lost his, at least) specially now in case the Khanid navy has joined them in being a "Heir fleet" after the King entered the amarrian government (not sure if it did). In my mind, I kinda see this as Legend of the Five Rings goes: different houses have very big and powerful armies, the Empress has his own but its way smaller than the ones of the Clans together (even counting that large parts of the House fleets would have temporarily been transferred to Imperial control), but the Empress has the moral authority and the will to eccert influence or even take control of those forces from time to time.

Well, that's the very principles of feudalism. A king raising levies from his dukes, themselves raising levies from their counts, themselves raising levies from their counties, towns, burgomasters, etc. Eventually you start to see people coming from all corners of space in that or that House "Oh ? You are from Mishi's suborbital guard ? I am usually working for the engineering corps of Hedion prime, but our levies have been called under the banner of House Ardishapur, and so I come to serve his lordship."

Interesting to note that in the same vein, the Imperial navy probably have a LOT of personnel directly employed under its banner (since it's like the glorious Romania Legio in the commoner's eye, where doing your service here is the fastest way to get a citizenship and climb the social ladder), but I can very well imagine that the Emperor/Empress too can raise levies from the 5 houses and basically make the Imperial Navy 5 times bigger in times of need, with all the private personnel usually serving under Holders.

[Publius Valerius]

I agree with Esna, it does seem like amarrian storyline is walking on that path between modernizing and tradition.

I always thought the Khanid Kingdom storyline/arc would be more in this direction. As Mark726 in his Lore Guide mention: "The Khanid are seen as a little more progressive, however, since they need to rely on outside trade and new technological development to survive much more so than their Amarr counterparts." It goes in the same direction as I saw the faction before: "If his policy is a expression of modernization or realpolitik.". But can be change now, how knows what CCPs plan is now.

The news item that started it walks that too, as it is a discussion on how should education be, and the voice of a Heir raised to try and get the Empress to do something. It's an interesting and important storyline to tell, and different to that of the Caldari falling into civil war, or the Republic reorganizing their government, so I believe it should go before another plot of changes in empire government.

The question is the counter argument. What is with the security? And how much resources should the Amarr civil service get and/or the institutions, which train their service personal? I go in this case, with the Sarumites. Having a one better institution would be great, even if it is the biggest one in the empire; but some things, like security, stand in my ordinal order above the needs of one group (in this case: the ACS service takers and givers). But, this is how I see the news.

As for modernizing and tradition. I havent seen so much on this front in the empire, but I also think, that any modernization would there go thru the religious "eyes"/"institutions"/"frame work" and would after it had pass this test not seen as a problem form any religious traditionalist. So in short form: Modernization goes in the empire, always hand in hand with faith and its dogmas; and any "thingy" which passes would be seen as "right". So more or less science and religion is seen as one; and as unit there wouldnt be a conflict. But just my 50 cents on this. Could be also totally wrong.
 

[Ciarente]

In the case of simultaneously active clones, there was an event arc way back in the day about this.

It's basically a fast-track to the very very top of CONCORD's most-wanted list. They will actively hunt you down.

It used to be that if you were podded due to server error, and petitioned, the message you got when they gave you back your implants and refunded the clone cost was that your clone had been prematurely activated without a pod breach; CONCORD had located your intact pod but unfortunately the 'self' in it had gone crazy from the sensory deprivation, so they euthanized it. 'but we rinsed off the implants a bit ... here'.

anyone who had that happen, knew someone who had that happen, or had heard about it, would ICly know that simultaneously active clones is possible.