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[Matariki Rain]

You do seem to tick a number of boxes that seem likely to make other Caldari look askance.

One particular question, though:

Although reading through that article I realized both my Caldari characters:
[...]
- Are tube children.
- Parents are divorced.

Since the write-up for tube children says they were raised in "inhospitable, government-run orphanages" I'd always assumed they were created with donor material, and that they wouldn't know their parents.

Do I take it you've assumed that artificial procreation was available electively to busy couples? How does that work out for you?

[Gesakaarin]

Since the write-up for tube children says they were raised in "inhospitable, government-run orphanages" I'd always assumed they were created with donor material, and that they wouldn't know their parents.

Do I take it you've assumed that artificial procreation was available electively to busy couples? How does that work out for you?

Well in terms of backgrounds their parents were executives who wanted to have "perfect" offspring to continue their legacies and had the means and access to ensure their children had the best possible chance in life through the genome therapies the tube child program offered?

I don't think it's too far-fetched to envision the upper echelons of State society using the tube child program to "donate" their zygotes to and then "adopt" the products of the program once they are conceived. Even in the ideally egalitarian and meritocratic State there's no doubt those who might be more equal than others due to their positions and familial ties that can probably bend the rules here and there, no?

[Katrina Oniseki]

Katrina is certainly a bit outcast in the State. She's displayed a relationship with another female, with intent to marry (with the new RP changes, this makes me wonder who the heck would marry them. Maybe under Mordu's Legion?).

The only thing she has going for her is that she's certified pureblood Deteis, traceable all the way back to the exodus to The Forge and Citadel regions. Meaning she's pretty much got a pedigree that says she is 'pure Deteis'.

[Matariki Rain]

Well in terms of backgrounds their parents were executives who wanted to have "perfect" offspring to continue their legacies and had the means and access to ensure their children had the best possible chance in life through the genome therapies the tube child program offered?

I don't think it's too far-fetched to envision the upper echelons of State society using the tube child program to "donate" their zygotes to and then "adopt" the products of the program once they are conceived. Even in the ideally egalitarian and meritocratic State there's no doubt those who might be more equal than others due to their positions and familial ties that can probably bend the rules here and there, no?

It's a tricky one, isn't it? Whatever works, and clearly you've got background there already, but it tweaked some of my "this would be an exception to the norm, piled on top of other exceptions" sensors.

I don't know that I could make a referenced case for my interpretation, and I don't particularly want to at the moment, so here's my very personal response.

The proper Caldari way to bear your young is with as little intervention as possible, to show that your line is strong and could survive the downfall of civilisation on an ice planet. The apparent low Caldari birth rate (?) is therefore a particular issue of concern and awkwardness. Is it physical? Genetic? Economic/cultural? Who actually bothers to look at it as a planning problem: do the megas do staff planning a generation out? Is the State, as opposed to megacorp, involvement in the tube program and orphanages significant? But why are tube children a specifically Deteis thing? Some joint project approved by the mega CEOs (presumably mostly Deteis themselves)? Were there test runs to experiment with the technology? What happened to those children? (Maybe Gesakaarin's an experimental prototype.) What normally happens to children without parents? I have glimmerings that there are some references to that in chronicles: could some of the Caldari lore experts help me out? Were State orphanages new with the tube program? (Where were they built?) Are there mega orphanages? Do you quietly and efficiently slip by the wayside if there's no one to take care of your needs? Would adoption be seen as a good thing (support your bloodline) or wasteful (not the best use of your own resources). Would the State have any reason to recognise adoption, even if it happens de facto?

Marriage is a contract, but marriage also seems to have a fair bit of cultural loading. Is serial monogamy okay? It's inefficient to have have a fertile partner bound to an infertile one, right? But if it's known that that's why you're repartnering would that mean loss of face? What are the public and private approaches to assistive reproductive technology apart from tubes? How inventive do people get, and how much gene-typing is there to work around when you're being inventive?

And always the basic question about childcare. I seem to want to explore different approaches to partnering and child-raising (communal/older-sibling/kibbutz/creche/grandparent/robot/AI-Care, etc), and I'm fairly often a little disappointed to find nuclear families, often with quite retro gender roles, turning up even in the space societies that least seem to fit them.

-- Require chronicle to be written about someone involved in the conception end of a tube program setting things up so a batch is theirs crossed with the-person-they-loved-but-couldn't-marry/everyone-they'd-ever-fancied-and-been-rejected-by. Extra points for using same-sex donors and gene splicing, in a society that Does Not Approve of same-sex relationships. Have them watch from a distance over the years. (Did Herko write this already?)

[Silver Night]

See, I often see it more of as 'this is the way it is in the large majority of cases, but not all of them' when I see something like the tube child program description. Which is, to my way of thinking, both more probable and more useful from the point of view of things like character backgrounds.

[Matariki Rain]

See, I often see it more of as 'this is the way it is in the large majority of cases, but not all of them' when I see something like the tube child program description. Which is, to my way of thinking, both more probable and more useful from the point of view of things like character backgrounds.

I try to remind myself of the "Orlanthi all" (i.e. approx. 85%). It mostly works, but sometimes the worlds that proceed from sharp-contrast interpretations and blurry-edges interpretations are hard to reconcile with each other.

[Gesakaarin]

I guess I'll add some more random thoughts:

Perhaps the implementation of the tube child program was due to the fact that Deteis birth-rates were lower than that of the Civire and due to the social taboos surrounding Civire-Deteis intermarriage and to maintain population parity artificial methods were required. As to why the Deteis might have lower birth rates it could be anything really... genetic defects and infertility, Deteis couples having small families while Civire couples have large families, or disproportionate male/female ratios that means more Deteis remained single. As to why the program was phased out it could be as simple as the fact that in socially conservative society like the State with its strong emphasis on having "traditional family units" the influx of children raised outside of what would be considered "proper" might have put a lot of strain on the legitimacy of the program.

This article does hint at the facts that:

- Tube children would be considered wards of the State.
- The Creches are run by the Child Services Department.
- The CSD subcontracts the running of orphanages to private firms.
- The entire orphanage/creche system in the State was/is potentially abused by unscrupulous contractors.

It very well might have become an open secret in the State when some of those tube children started growing up that certain aspects of the creche system was potentially dysfunctional and would have lead to concerned parties adopting wards of the State and the eventual termination of the tube child program.

Although there might be a strong argument that other forms of communal child-care would be common in the State which might have found its root during the years of the first Gallente-Caldari war when, if every possible man and woman was needed to fight or work in factories the only options for children would have been to be raised in communal schools away from the frontlines.

Modern corporate schools in the State might borrow from that tradition where children are away from home for extended periods of time to, "Foster their sense of communal identity and corporate spirit." It would probably make it easier to indoctrinate them with the messages the Megas want them to hold as deeply held beliefs through communal systems of education and lifestyle from when they are youths.

Well in terms of backgrounds their parents were executives who wanted to have "perfect" offspring to continue their legacies and had the means and access to ensure their children had the best possible chance in life through the genome therapies the tube child program offered?

I don't think it's too far-fetched to envision the upper echelons of State society using the tube child program to "donate" their zygotes to and then "adopt" the products of the program once they are conceived. Even in the ideally egalitarian and meritocratic State there's no doubt those who might be more equal than others due to their positions and familial ties that can probably bend the rules here and there, no?

It's a tricky one, isn't it? Whatever works, and clearly you've got background there already, but it tweaked some of my "this would be an exception to the norm, piled on top of other exceptions" sensors.

Yes, it's an exception. However it was one created in what I considered to be within the bounds of plausibility and was designed with the sole intent of introducing flaws in the characters in question that I can either build upon or people should be welcome to question at their leisure. However, I do play it out the way I think a Caldari would and that is by keeping their silence and ensuring the facade of perfection and meeting the standards of the State ideal is maintained.

I don't know... I just like characters that have their own imperfections because it makes things interesting. I also have a tendency to just think up things on the spot, say to myself, "Hey this makes sense and might be interesting, what could possibly go wrong." Then proceed to have my vicarious amusement as everything goes wrong.

[Jev North]

-- Require chronicle to be written about someone involved in the conception end of a tube program setting things up so a batch is theirs crossed with the-person-they-loved-but-couldn't-marry/everyone-they'd-ever-fancied-and-been-rejected-by. Extra points for using same-sex donors and gene splicing, in a society that Does Not Approve of same-sex relationships. Have them watch from a distance over the years. (Did Herko write this already?)

I love this idea to pieces. If you don't mind me yoinking it, I may try to write a short fluff piece about it. No guarantees regarding quality, however.

[Matariki Rain]

-- Require chronicle to be written about someone involved in the conception end of a tube program setting things up so a batch is theirs crossed with the-person-they-loved-but-couldn't-marry/everyone-they'd-ever-fancied-and-been-rejected-by. Extra points for using same-sex donors and gene splicing, in a society that Does Not Approve of same-sex relationships. Have them watch from a distance over the years. (Did Herko write this already?)

I love this idea to pieces. If you don't mind me yoinking it, I may try to write a short fluff piece about it. No guarantees regarding quality, however.

Go for it. I'm idly thinking of doing a version of it myself, but it's currently taking special kinds of motivation for me to finish fiction so I wouldn't want anyone to hold their breath or hold off on using an idea because of that.

[Jace Carithias]

Quite possibly, although it does leave me wanting to ask the writer (and you!) what's intended by "ethnicity". Modern definitions are quite fluffy and can be entirely cultural (see the Wikipedia definition and discussion).

It sounds like the Caldari State includes "Caldari", Achura, and others. The "Caldari" come in two flavours which are generally seen as having different traits, strengths, and mythic ancestries: "fast and strong" Civire from Kivire's Fuukiuye people of the east, and "Wise", "calm and deep" Deteis from Deteaas' Oryioni people of the north. The two groups are discouraged from intermarrying. They share a language, a general culture, and a myth of origin about how their peoples came together (Cold Wind).

Well, in my experience that has been the largest issue I've seen debated in-game since "Demographics" was released. What constitutes ethnicity, why would they say that Civire and Deteis can not be seen as distinct ethnicities but then continue to describe them in those terms?

The analogy that I continue to use is regional. Despite the variety of definitions that exist for "ethnicity," I don't think anyone would use that term for distinguishing someone from Texas and someone from the north (Again, sorry for US example - but it's what I know best). Someone from Texas will generally speak differently, act differently, drive differently, and to some extent has an increased chance for adhering to different ideologies than someone from the north.

Where this analogy can fall apart however, is the widespread lack of intermarrying. That can happen in my example, but it would probably be out of annoyance for a regional habit - not some kind of principled approach. Though, I have met people who would have that principled approach, but it is rare.

Though it is entirely possible some of us are fixating on that "can not be considered..." phrase too much, and it was just incidentally phrased so concretely. Long story short, I don't know what definition of ethnicity I find the most useful or accurate - I am just trying to develop a coherent reason or function for that one explicit sentence in "Demographics."

[Gesakaarin]

Well, in my experience that has been the largest issue I've seen debated in-game since "Demographics" was released. What constitutes ethnicity, why would they say that Civire and Deteis can not be seen as distinct ethnicities but then continue to describe them in those terms?

I think the article is implying that Civire and Deteis are not an ethnicity in the respect that they have separate and distinct cultures and traditions since the primary identity is, "Caldari" of which they form part of. To be Caldari is to adhere to its concepts and tenets, it is an ideal, a national identity which supersedes being Civire or Deteis, or indeed any other identity in the State.

The difficulty I think with it is that a fundamental aspect of the Caldari identity is the role the Civire and Deteis play in it historically as the people directly descended from the "Homeworld". As such it is the Deteis and Civire together that forms the Caldari identity in the State and that's what drives the social taboos against intermarriage in order to preserve what is considered their heritage and history as one people.

That is what might also drive the prejudice and stigma against mixed-blood offspring and other ethnicities in the State because unless you look like you fit either the Deteis or Civire ideals then you're also less Caldari than someone else who does.

[Hamish Grayson]

This thread might be relevant.    I've always thought the tube program was a result of less Deteis making it to the 'freighters' which at that time would have presumably been the same size or smaller than the Badger or Badger MKII.   

Two weeks passed. More than half the Caldari population was still on the planet.

Finally, the Caldari admiral Yakiya Tovil-Toba took matters into his own hands. He led the few dozen ships he commanded and jumped to Gallente Prime. ... Admiral Tovil-Toba and his crew sacrificed themselves in order for millions more Caldari to escape.

The amount of Caldari lifted off world is described as 'millions.'   So my guess would be that there weren't that many Deteis to start with, and even fewer escaped onto the small cargo ships in the chaos of orbital bombardment. 

[Bong-cha Jones]

The amount of Caldari lifted off world is described as 'millions.'   So my guess would be that there weren't that many Deteis to start with, and even fewer escaped onto the small cargo ships in the chaos of orbital bombardment.

Millions were evacuated after two weeks.  Nearly half the population had left when Admiral Tovil-Toba began his suicide run.  Millions more were evacuated, but we know that some remnants were left behind.  Caldari Prime isn't the most inhabitable of planets, but it's not the only one the Caldari had either, so any numbers derived from its evacuation are only a percentage of the overall numbers.

Besides, it took them nearly two centuries to try to rectify any imbalance, and they stopped trying after less than 50.  I'm not so sure this particular problem can be laid at the feet of the Fed.

[Hamish Grayson]

Have I really come off so anti-fed?   I never could post anything about about that era without somebody saying 'it's not the Fed's fault.'   I lost interest in the Gallente-Caldari dynamic six years ago and my only reason for exploring this area was as a traumatic experience that shaped modern Caldari culture.    Painting the Federation with a black brush IC or even interacting with Gallente RPers in an IC setting had zero appeal to me.

As for OOC, I found Federation cannon to be dull but had no interest in casting the Gallente as bad guys - only in exploring the nature of the Caldari.   I don't know why I seemed to draw such attention and ire from certain quarters.   Was it because without the Caldari 'antagonists' to drive conflict there isn't anything to make Gallente RP interesting?  Was there no internal drivers?  Did they literally need an external source to survive, and thus latched onto anything we did as a matter of necessity?   

[Jace Carithias]

It seems a bit surprising to me that after all this time, there is still so little PF about one of the main ancestries for Deteis. All of these details we wonder about regarding Tube Children were being discussed and debated in much the same way years ago when I first played EVE. Is it that hard to write a Chronicle about it? Anyway, just seems weird to me.

With Jace, I've gone a fairly stereotypical route I see people go with Tubies. Created and raised until a toddler in a Wiyrkomi facility in the standard creche format. Then relocated to New Caldari Prime to be raised and educated in what is essentially a Wiyrkomi boarding school.