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Author Topic: Inaction in the Face of Injustice  (Read 4199 times)

Reyd Karris

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Inaction in the Face of Injustice
« on: 15 Sep 2012, 12:16 »

I'll put it bluntly; if there are rules, I like to see them followed, or at least an attempt made to explain why certain things are allowed to slide.

Biggest question I have is: Is this appropriate for a recruitment thread?

I don't think so.

While the post cited does stay (barely) on the right side of the "no urdoinitwrong" rule, many replies to this (and the ensuing discussion) do not. Completely derailing a recruitment thread with something that could easily be put into a completely separate thread is one thing; a simple split would be perfectly fine, and the OP has asked for this specific action to be taken. This, however, is something completely different. It is derailing a recruitment thread with a topic that most likely wouldn't fly under the rules of the forum.

I have a lot of respect for these forums and it's moderators. I sincerely dislike seeing the rules flagrantly disregarded because an individual is seen as "in the wrong" in their own RP. I don't care if they are, in fact, wrong. I don't care who it is. I may not like Leopold personally, I may not feel that his corp is handling things appropriately, but that does not give me or anyone else the right to use some of the language I've seen in that thread. It's not appropriate, and as one moderator is involved, definitely warrants an explanation.

I've said what I needed to say.

 :cry:
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Lyn Farel

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Re: Inaction in the Face of Injustice
« Reply #1 on: 15 Sep 2012, 12:47 »

Thanks for posting it instead of me. I have been thinking to do it for the past few days but considering my own fault in the matter (answering to all the inflammatory material and contributing to derail the thread even more), I thought it would not be wise nor productive for me to start a thread about it, and could have been seen as hypocritical as well.

I agree entirely with what you said, but please keep in mind that a few moments can sometimes be needed before an action by the moderation team is to be taken since they sometimes have to discuss about it on private parts of the forum or through private messages. It can also take even more time since everyone here is doing it freely on a voluntary basis and RL stuff can happen and delay things.





However, there are several different things at work here, and I think it would be better to avoid any confusion (not that you have done any, quite the contrary actually) :

1) This is a recruitement thread we are talking about. Then we had an (interesting I think) discussion on how the cartel link can be percieved IC and how to clearly set it apart from all the OOC sugarcoat we know about the corp.

However as interesting as the discussion was, it would have been indeed better to split the thread and open a new one called something like "Stillwater: IC/OOC known cartel affiliations ?" So, the first issue is mostly about a thread derailing on another (interesting ?) subject.



2) We also had quite a few contributions that were clearly in my mind violating the very rules of the forum. One of them is mostly on the form (not the content) on how some people implied "you are doing it wrong". As much as it may be constructive to point out respectfuly what in the corp you think might cause troubles with other RPers, there are several ways of saying it.

As Reyd said above, iirc some comments were very borderline on that matter and even I, who vaguely know that Leo does not do the unanimity, was able to feel the clear hostility in some of the comments. Sounded like pretty childish behavior to me.



3) And a few clear violations of the rules of inflammatory comments comments being overly insulting.

I am here refering to Morwen post : "Whining and ranting at people for noticing your shitty housekeeping skills when you invited them into your house isn't going to get you anywhere." Bit that I reported, of course.

I could also have reported my own post asking people if they are reading what other write, because as much as I still wonder if they do, it was of bad form and probably insulting either.

The ensuing inflammatory post (post #37) that Morwen answered with is also a huge taunt directed at me in itself, but I guess I deserved it. However, it is still out of the rules of the forum in my opinion. You're the only one who seems to be having trouble understanding anything I'm saying. The problem is pretty clearly on your end, Lyn. is also completely firstly, arrogant, and secondly, violating the rules of respect and conduct, and more, coming from a mod himself makes it even more difficult for me to deal with it.

I also reported Saede post I actually quite like Leo OOCly, its just that the way he RPs often makes me facedesk. I feel that the way it was said was maybe not intentional, but it is clearly violating the rules as well.




This of course, is only my opinion on the matter. I am especially surprised to see that I got so much flak in the process for merely being quite neutral and, I hope, objective in the answers I provided.


Edit: on a more subjective way of saying things at a more personnal level, I feel that this thread derailing is quite telling on the activities of some circlejerks in the community.
« Last Edit: 15 Sep 2012, 12:53 by Lyn Farel »
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Saede Riordan

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Re: Inaction in the Face of Injustice
« Reply #2 on: 15 Sep 2012, 15:04 »

Yeah, all of that. They've already both put it better then I could have. By the last page everyone is probably violating the rules. The moderators should have stepped in on this ages ago. What is going on?
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Casiella

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Re: Inaction in the Face of Injustice
« Reply #3 on: 15 Sep 2012, 18:01 »

I hate to break it to you, but we're not always around. MorLag specifically would not moderate that thread because he's posted in it, Silver and I are often off doing other things (independently :P ) and Misan and Ciarente also have lives.

We're not F5ing all the time, you know, and reporting a post is not the same as saying something like "this whole thread needs a look" (as Reyd did in this thread, which I genuinely appreciate <3 ).

So it's not so much "inaction because we don't care" as "inaction because we're not omnipresent and omniscient". Well, as far as my kids know, I am, but we know better here. ;) :P :twisted:
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Casiella

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Re: Inaction in the Face of Injustice
« Reply #4 on: 15 Sep 2012, 18:20 »

Update: I have split the thread and removed a few posts that either violated the rules or would look odd post-split.

By way of additional explanation, Seri's initial post did get reported, but Leo chose to respond and thus the staff decided as a group that the post in question could stay, since it wasn't clearly outside the guidelines (albeit not an unreasonable report because we could definitely see both sides). Clearly, the thread grew to proportions that probably nobody involved expected and detracted from the point of a recruitment thread. But the question at hand is not inappropriate as long as it's handled within the rest of the guidelines here and so it will stay as a split topic unless and until it really goes to shit. I like to believe that reasonable people can disagree reasonably.

Just because we don't act on a report doesn't mean we didn't read and consider it. All reports get seen by all moderators (eventually :P ) and we always discuss it. Because of the nature of the guidelines here, we don't necessarily act immediately if there are multiple viewpoints or something isn't flagrantly problematic. We don't PM back every reporter saying "thanks for your report but we decided it's okay for now", and we don't make decisions within moments. In this case, we saw the report relatively quickly but decided against action at the beginning. If an entire thread gets to be a problem, report the OP or the post that starts the issue and tell us that.

And we certainly don't read every individual post in every single thread, or at least not as individuals. That is to say, every post might get seen at some point by SOME moderator, but no moderator sees every single post, not even "eventually".

I hope this clarifies things. If not, please let me know and I'll answer to the best of my abilities.

NB: Because this is a moderation thread, and because I specifically moderated that thread (something I would have preferred not to have done for various personal reasons), I won't be participating in the discussion directly. Some opinions and information will just have to go unexpressed, sadly.
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Reyd Karris

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Re: Inaction in the Face of Injustice
« Reply #5 on: 15 Sep 2012, 18:47 »

So it's not so much "inaction because we don't care" as "inaction because we're not omnipresent and omniscient". Well, as far as my kids know, I am, but we know better here. ;) :P :twisted:
To be fair, the title was more a statement on my own inaction than that of mods. I felt I had an obligation to post. Instead of adding to the fray, I thought it best to point things out here. I understand both sides, and understand how things got so heated, so I just thought pointing it out might help.

I'm glad things got sorted.

o7
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Silver Night

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Re: Inaction in the Face of Injustice
« Reply #6 on: 15 Sep 2012, 19:14 »

Just want to reiterate what Casi said, basically. All reports do get read. With cases that are borderline, in particular, we might not act immediately because:

1) Moderators might not see it immediately
2) Discussing it among ourselves (which we generally always do with anything that isn't extremely clear cut) can take a little time with TZs and whatnot.
3) Sometimes (probably roughly half the time) we end up not moving forward with any moderation following those discussions.

We all (AFAIK) have full time jobs, other obligations, etc. This is also why (as Casi mentioned) it can be helpful if in your report you indicate if the whole thread needs a look or just the immediate area of the reported post, as I don't believe any of us read every thread.

Lyn Farel

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Re: Inaction in the Face of Injustice
« Reply #7 on: 16 Sep 2012, 05:28 »

We all (AFAIK) have full time jobs, other obligations, etc. This is also why (as Casi mentioned) it can be helpful if in your report you indicate if the whole thread needs a look or just the immediate area of the reported post, as I don't believe any of us read every thread.

Ok, I will keep that in mind the next times to make sure to include everything in the report to avoid making you re-read everything again.

But the question at hand is not inappropriate as long as it's handled within the rest of the guidelines here and so it will stay as a split topic unless and until it really goes to shit. I like to believe that reasonable people can disagree reasonably.

Yes, I completely agree as long as it is actually the case.

And here it is not in my opinion. There are still several posts as linked above that continue to break the rules (one of mine can be included in the lot).
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Casiella

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Re: Inaction in the Face of Injustice
« Reply #8 on: 16 Sep 2012, 07:49 »

Then please report them. It's entirely possible I missed things during the cleanup. :)
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Katrina Oniseki

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Re: Inaction in the Face of Injustice
« Reply #9 on: 16 Sep 2012, 09:27 »

Quoting myself for the third time. Hope I'm not annoying anyone with this. :P

Quote
Going to mention the elephant in the room here.

Based on my discussions with people OOC over my time playing with this community, I have noticed that a staggering majority of the people posting in this thread do not like Leopold OOC. Many of the people arguing with him here have had a history of not really getting on with him well at least in recent history. Several of you have had long discussions with me personally about this very issue.

While the arguments being posted here are valid, I can't help but notice there are few neutral parties to your OOC issues weighing in by comparison. Not going to name names, but this is starting to look like a dogpile, because some of you just plain don't like the guy very much.

Because I am trying to work on bettering my own interaction with Leo OOC, I'm not going to weigh in on what I think of this.