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[Verone]

Verone, it sounds like I've got quite a different take on the wiki.

People working for and with CCP have, in general, done an excellent job of dividing IC from OOC. IGS is IC. News items which I'll call "within the world" are IC. The Arek'Jaalan coordinator is IC (sometimes more so than the players). Most other things from CCP are OOC.

If the wiki is an unmarked blend of IC and OOC then it is effectively OOC. As an immersionist roleplayer I can't confidently link to it or refer to it IC. It means there is still a gap in the EVE universe for the IC equivalent or equivalents, complete with in-character debate about the factual basis and choice of wording used for some topics.

I'd like the wiki--or a wiki, or a goodly portion of the wiki that's clearly marked--to be something Matariki could use to learn about the cluster, not just something Matariki's-player could use to learn about the gameworld of EVE.

What we've got now is a very good beginning. I think--although I'm still open to better suggestions--that I'd like it to get its brackets on as part of the next step towards making it somewhere where information can be revealed and spread as what is known changes.

It's also quite troublesome for me when I'm talking to new players who don't have a solid grip on the background of the universe yet. If one of them asks me, for instance, how the Empyrean War (i.e., faction warfare) started, I could point them to the article on the Elder Invasion... but then I'd also have to warn them that we don't actually know that Jamyl used a Terran weapon, etc.

Mata : I can see where you're coming from, but I still think that people should be able to distinguish between IC and OOC, and be able to decide what their character does and does not know with some kind of mature and responsible form of reasoning, and without the need for the wiki to be labelled as IC/OOC.

Esna (and Mata to an extent) : I'm a firm believer in completely dynamic RP, without the need for pre-scripting anything. I'd see someone asking Ethan about something in character as an opportunity for RP, and would happily sit down and have an IC conversation with them, explaining something from his point of view, without the need to even link a wiki page.

The whole situation is a double edged blade, because sadly as I've said there are always going to be the ballbags who can't separate IC from OOC, or just want their character to be the all seeing eye of d00m.

[Shae Tiann]

I'd like the wiki--or a wiki, or a goodly portion of the wiki that's clearly marked--to be something Matariki could use to learn about the cluster, not just something Matariki's-player could use to learn about the gameworld of EVE.

The trouble with this idea is that the contents of the Eve wiki are all we have. As far as the vast majority of players are concerned, there is no more to the game world than what has already been written and published by CCP.

Think about it: creating an immersive literary world for Eve would be on the scale of Lord of the Rings, if not bigger. LotR took Tolkien years decades to complete, and there was so much backstory he developed that it's still being published in volumes created after his death.

It's not humanly possible for CCP to fill in all the gaps every RPer would dearly love to see filled, right here, right now. We cannot expect a miracle history book to suddenly appear containing the answers to life, the Eve universe, and everything, which we can then link to ICly. It's up to us to create our own lore. There's nothing that says we can't be "right" even when it contradicts something published later by CCP, because the society of an entire galaxy would be so vast and so varied and multilayered that there's literally room for everything.

I like Orange's idea that we could start our own catalogue of information. Something where RPers can contribute our own bits of self-made Eve lore, where things can be discussed, debated, updated and determined by us, the players as "IC" information (as opposed to the wiki's solidly OOC designation) would better reflect the more organic expanses and growth of the virtual societies we like to pretend to be a part of.

[Rodj Blake]

I'd like the wiki--or a wiki, or a goodly portion of the wiki that's clearly marked--to be something Matariki could use to learn about the cluster, not just something Matariki's-player could use to learn about the gameworld of EVE.

The trouble with this idea is that the contents of the Eve wiki are all we have. As far as the vast majority of players are concerned, there is no more to the game world than what has already been written and published by CCP.

Think about it: creating an immersive literary world for Eve would be on the scale of Lord of the Rings, if not bigger. LotR took Tolkien years decades to complete, and there was so much backstory he developed that it's still being published in volumes created after his death.

It's not humanly possible for CCP to fill in all the gaps every RPer would dearly love to see filled, right here, right now. We cannot expect a miracle history book to suddenly appear containing the answers to life, the Eve universe, and everything, which we can then link to ICly. It's up to us to create our own lore. There's nothing that says we can't be "right" even when it contradicts something published later by CCP, because the society of an entire galaxy would be so vast and so varied and multilayered that there's literally room for everything.

I like Orange's idea that we could start our own catalogue of information. Something where RPers can contribute our own bits of self-made Eve lore, where things can be discussed, debated, updated and determined by us, the players as "IC" information (as opposed to the wiki's solidly OOC designation) would better reflect the more organic expanses and growth of the virtual societies we like to pretend to be a part of.

On the other hand you have RPGs that publish a large amount of useable background information in a relatively short time.   The example that I like to use is Traveller.   The old Library Data books were pretty awesome.

The early Eve chronicles also contained lots of useable information rather than fluff.   Such information doesn't have to be produced all in one hit.   Indeed, it's probably better when its released gradually because it means that people can RP around the latest stuff rather than all go off in different directions.

There's a whole lot of background information that CCP could produce without too much effort, such as filling in the holes in the timelines of the major factions.  I wish that they'd put some thought into doing it.

[Matariki Rain]

For Shae: I'm not asking CCP to write more for us, just that what we have is tagged so that things that aren't publicly known aren't in the public--and potentially otherwise IC--playspace.

[Myyona]

Whoopsie doo, I have noticed players have started to contribute their own stuff under the categories used by the Fiction Portal. In particular the 'Lore' category without the 'Player Created Fiction' tag. I am not certain we are supposed to do that, even use those categories at all.

[Milo Caman]

If you're referring to The Odamian Renegades and Mourir Spider Drone, both are obscure CCP lore that I'm looking to expand a bit. I wasn't sure about the tags, but the material on both those pages is ingame somewhere.

[Myyona]

The whole fuss with the Fiction Portal is that we cannot expand on the prime fiction at all as we cannot edit the official pages. Circumvent that restriction by creating our own pages and link them through the categories seems like something that will get the smack down, I am sorry to say.

Still, feel free to do it and see if ISD takes notice.

[Matariki Rain]

Perhaps we should collectively write a primer?  With references to the annual review articles (which I think is mostly IC, would have to check)?

This is a positive response. It's not the same as having a shared, possibly CONCORD-managed, repository of things we could all expect to be aware of, couched in carefully neutral terms and with heated discussion pages. I'd like that (too?).

Just letting you know that I have been thinking about this.

[Milo Caman]

As far as I'm aware ISD, will take suggestions. If something is out, use the talk page. I've had a fair few responses so far.

[Seriphyn]

I like how Muck Raker has preempted the matter of Jamyl Orgies™ as a ridiculous tabloid story to discredit any further attempts to godmode the Amarr RP bloc as a giant drug-fuelled lesbian joke. So hooray 

Well done, Muck, well done.

[Sakura Imoru]

I like how Muck Raker has preempted the matter of Jamyl Orgies™ as a ridiculous tabloid story to discredit any further attempts to godmode the Amarr RP bloc as a giant drug-fuelled lesbian joke. So hooray 

Well done, Muck, well done.

We talked about this in a convo already, Seri, and many people know that I share Tony's version of Amarrian leadership (emphasis on leadership, I have no doubt that the common folk is very religious). Considering how theocracies all turned out in the past (see my post here) I think it's not too hard to imagine that the heirs, the empress and others in important positions are a huge bunch of hipocrites. And considering that there are so many historical examples on this matter I really can't understand the hate Tony recieves for portraying the most likely realities in the Empire.

(editted because of typo)

[Seriphyn]

Just because it's played out like that in the past doesn't necessarily mean it will do so in the future.

[Sakura Imoru]

Maybe, but the human nature and the fact that debauchery and decadence repeated themselves inside theocracies time and time again makes it more likely then an actually working one, doesn't it?

[Milo Caman]

Maybe, but the human nature and the fact that debauchery and decadence repeated themselves inside theocracies time and time again makes it more likely then an actually working one, doesn't it?

Not particularly. I can understand there being a degree of corruption and debauchery within Amarrian leadership, heck, you get that everywhere. Every existing religious institution probably has degrees of it.
No, what bugs me is it portrays pretty much everyone up top like that. It's not isolated, or in any way subtle, it's full-on, tits out 'let's be corrupt guize, it'll be fun' with no attempts to justify it in the context of this huge and ancient religion.

Edit: Shouldn't this discussion really be on the Templar One Thread?

[Senn Typhos]

Maybe, but the human nature and the fact that debauchery and decadence repeated themselves inside theocracies time and time again makes it more likely then an actually working one, doesn't it?

"It always happens" is neither an original, nor an interesting means by which to write fiction.