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[Morwen Lagann]

With Jamyl, it is mind-bogglingly obvious she's a clone. She committed ritual suicide, and then came back several years later. Call it what you like, you don't come back from the dead like that without a clone. Some people seem to confuse toeing the party line and regurgitating the "OMG IT'S A MIRACLE SO IGNORE THE GODFLESH DOCTRINE" noise the TC has forcefed them with an inability to know (provably) that Jamyl is a clone. Anyone (or any character) who understands how the cloning process works would easily be able to see that Jamyl is a clone. Someone made a comment somewhere (Lallara or Silas, on this forum I think?) that anyone who supports Jamyl's reign has no real grounds to call themselves a "conservative" Amarrian. They're not wrong. :p

So.... religious Amarrians who believe in miracles, even though there is a possible scientific explanation, are 'doing it wrong'?

No, but they have no right or justification to call themselves conservative. Yonis and his supporters, on the other hand, do. Buncha liberals up in this joint. D:

edit: to clarify, toeing the party line and regurgitating the TC's nonsense isn't "doing it wrong" - but going "omg we can't know that she's a clone" is.

[orange]

edit: to clarify, toeing the party line and regurgitating the TC's nonsense isn't "doing it wrong" - but going "omg we can't know that she's a clone" is.

The "omg we can't know she's a clone" is in actual saying "your doing it wrong" to those who make the argument that she is a clone.

[Kaleigh Doyle]

They're not really the same thing, in terms of RP, though.

With Jamyl, it is mind-bogglingly obvious she's a clone. She committed ritual suicide, and then came back several years later. Call it what you like, you don't come back from the dead like that without a clone. Some people seem to confuse toeing the party line and regurgitating the "OMG IT'S A MIRACLE SO IGNORE THE GODFLESH DOCTRINE" noise the TC has forcefed them with an inability to know (provably) that Jamyl is a clone. Anyone (or any character) who understands how the cloning process works would easily be able to see that Jamyl is a clone. Someone made a comment somewhere (Lallara or Silas, on this forum I think?) that anyone who supports Jamyl's reign has no real grounds to call themselves a "conservative" Amarrian. They're not wrong. :p

I think in this matter, acknowledging her reign as empress was a matter of political expediency for the other heirs, and appropriately made. At this period of time Jamyl had just repelled a Minmatar invasion fleet and saved their people from being slaughtered, not their current rulers who were officially 'caught with their pants down'. For a society of faithful, it's not difficult to see how a 'formerly dead' heir suddenly returning from death to save them with a super-weapon could be seen as a 'miracle'. With that kind of introduction, I think it would be incredibly difficult to question her integrity as a ruler without suffering serious political backlash. I'm sure there are elements of society, especially the higher echelons who may not agree with her politics or had an opportunity to move up who would pose these sorts of questions privately, but I find it highly unlikely, especially given how vigorous the secret services are about rooting out heretical (or seditious) behavior, that such attention would be brought to public discourse.

But that doesn't exactly apply to Capsuleers, who enjoy a special status in society. They could discuss this (and make everyone in the room uncomfortable if they don't agree) without serious repercussion, because the Empire still needs Capsuleers to protect/wield for their uses, so would most likely not invite them to any important functions to avoid such uncomfortable situations. That is, unless everyone in the room sees eye-to-eye...

On the other hand, with Noir you have a celebrated Admiral who was known for his peace efforts, suddenly pulling an about-face and committing one of the greatest atrocities of the "modern" era (in terms of EVE, anyway) without any warning at all. Sure, it's perfectly plausible that it was "someone else" and not Noir himself, but nobody can cast reasonable doubt on it having been Noir himself. All anyone can prove is that someone wearing Noir's body was flying that Nyx, and that whoever it was turned and did something nobody would have ever expected of Noir at the worst possible time. But with no actual evidence beyond completely unexpected behavior, there's not enough to put someone other than Admiral Noir himself inside the Admiral Noir suit and make the "it was an impostor!" claims dissimilar to the "9/11 was an inside job!" or "there was no moon landing!" claims some people make in the real world.

I think in this situation it was extremely difficult for Gallenteans to believe that a man who was dedicated to peace could possibly commit such an atrocious act, and I think as a general rule the Gallenteans don't ever perceive themselves as the aggressors. Of course, this plays right into the Corporate-sponsored stereotype propaganda pumped into the populace by the State, so seeing a traitorous, back-stabbing Gallente showing his true colors finally was a bit of a 'nail in the coffin' for skeptics on the opposite side. I don't think it would be a terrible stretch of the imagination for Gallenteans and even the Federation government to investigate the incident to find 'the truth' given Noir's past, whereas the Caldari would see it as an open-and-shut case.

[Yoshito Sanders]

So.... religious Amarrians who believe in miracles, even though there is a possible scientific explanation, are 'doing it wrong'?

No, but they have no right or justification to call themselves conservative. Yonis and his supporters, on the other hand, do. Buncha liberals up in this joint. D:

edit: to clarify, toeing the party line and regurgitating the TC's nonsense isn't "doing it wrong" - but going "omg we can't know that she's a clone" is.

I actually disagree with this. There can be conservative Amarr who believe that the TC's nonsense isn't nonsense at all. They acknowledge, for instance, that there is such a thing as cloning and that a cynical nonbeliever might believe that Jamyl cloned herself. But miracles exist in the Scriptures. Amash-Akura lived for 200 years back before clones and life extension were possible. Molok the Deceiver conjured floods and plagues against the people before climate control existed. Jamyl didn't simply pop up the day after she committed suicide and started causing trouble. No, she appeared as the Empire was under assault and, using unexplained powers (remember, that it was a Terran superweapon she used isn't known about outside of a small number of people. For all most people know, Jamyl showed up in an unexceptional Abaddon with an escort of 7 ships and destroyed a large capital fleet including Titan) turned back a powerful enemy where no one else could. She also acts a changed woman to how she was before she died. She makes no specific claims about the nature of her return, but the leaders of your religion proclaim her return a miracle.

Consider what would happen in similar circumstances today. People witness a person get shot in the chest and fall off a high cliff into turbulent, shark-infested waters below. A body is never recovered and five years pass without anyone seeing the person. Then suddenly, a nuclear missile is heading right for New York City, and this guy suddenly flies out of nowhere and disarms the nuke in mid-air. If the Pope claimed that the guy was a miracle sent by God, a lot of people would rightly say "Well, we knew he was a good swimmer, and he might have knew a guy was going to shoot at him, so he might have been wearing a bulletproof vest, plus he worked for a top secret government program, so he might have been trained to disarm a nuke. We don't know how he flew, but there might be some rational explanation." But a lot of other people saying, "There's a lot of mights there. The chances of that many mights coming true seems like it'd take a miracle in the first place."

Same thing with Jamyl. "Sure, we saw her die. But we know she was a capsuleer, so she might have cloned. And she might have just been hiding until something like the Minmatar attacking would happen so she could save everyone. We don't know how she destroyed them with such a small fleet, but there might be a rational explanation."

Think about what crazy things people believe in today that have rational explanations or have even been scientifically disproven. UFOs. Bigfoot. Nostradamus. Vaccines causing autism. Pitcher wins. The Mayan calendar. The Earth being 6000 years old. Twilight being good.

Does it mean that people who believe Jamyl's return was miraculous are deluding themselves? Yes, of course. They're willfully ignoring the evidence because it does not match up with what they want to believe. This doesn't make them automatically liberal, or even stupid. It makes them normal people.

The liberal ones are the Amarr who believe she was cloned or faked her death, but don't care.

[Esna Pitoojee]

People insisting that it's legal when it's clearly not.

So in this case, it's people just ignoring what's written, not utilizing OOC knowledge IC.

Now it is. I think what Morwen is saying is that prior to this, where this fact was merely stated in a couple of obscure mission texts and not explicitly on the wiki, people would dismiss it. Therefore, the completionist manner the wiki is written is a good thing, as it allows explicit facts to be pointed to if people are hanging on accepting them to excuse their RP position.

Personally?

I really wish CCP would add a "warning: This article/section-of-an-article is written from an Out-Of-Character point of view and is not suitable for in-character quotation" or something along those lines, or even split articles into "fiction portal" and "universe information portal" sub-portals to clarify what we as players and what we as characters can draw from.

[Mitara Newelle]

So.... religious Amarrians who believe in miracles, even though there is a possible scientific explanation, are 'doing it wrong'?

No, but they have no right or justification to call themselves conservative. Yonis and his supporters, on the other hand, do. Buncha liberals up in this joint. D:

edit: to clarify, toeing the party line and regurgitating the TC's nonsense isn't "doing it wrong" - but going "omg we can't know that she's a clone" is.

I actually disagree with this. There can be conservative Amarr who believe that the TC's nonsense isn't nonsense at all. They acknowledge, for instance, that there is such a thing as cloning and that a cynical nonbeliever might believe that Jamyl cloned herself. But miracles exist in the Scriptures. Amash-Akura lived for 200 years back before clones and life extension were possible. Molok the Deceiver conjured floods and plagues against the people before climate control existed. Jamyl didn't simply pop up the day after she committed suicide and started causing trouble. No, she appeared as the Empire was under assault and, using unexplained powers (remember, that it was a Terran superweapon she used isn't known about outside of a small number of people. For all most people know, Jamyl showed up in an unexceptional Abaddon with an escort of 7 ships and destroyed a large capital fleet including Titan) turned back a powerful enemy where no one else could. She also acts a changed woman to how she was before she died. She makes no specific claims about the nature of her return, but the leaders of your religion proclaim her return a miracle.

Consider what would happen in similar circumstances today. People witness a person get shot in the chest and fall off a high cliff into turbulent, shark-infested waters below. A body is never recovered and five years pass without anyone seeing the person. Then suddenly, a nuclear missile is heading right for New York City, and this guy suddenly flies out of nowhere and disarms the nuke in mid-air. If the Pope claimed that the guy was a miracle sent by God, a lot of people would rightly say "Well, we knew he was a good swimmer, and he might have knew a guy was going to shoot at him, so he might have been wearing a bulletproof vest, plus he worked for a top secret government program, so he might have been trained to disarm a nuke. We don't know how he flew, but there might be some rational explanation." But a lot of other people saying, "There's a lot of mights there. The chances of that many mights coming true seems like it'd take a miracle in the first place."

Same thing with Jamyl. "Sure, we saw her die. But we know she was a capsuleer, so she might have cloned. And she might have just been hiding until something like the Minmatar attacking would happen so she could save everyone. We don't know how she destroyed them with such a small fleet, but there might be a rational explanation."

Think about what crazy things people believe in today that have rational explanations or have even been scientifically disproven. UFOs. Bigfoot. Nostradamus. Vaccines causing autism. Pitcher wins. The Mayan calendar. The Earth being 6000 years old. Twilight being good.

Does it mean that people who believe Jamyl's return was miraculous are deluding themselves? Yes, of course. They're willfully ignoring the evidence because it does not match up with what they want to believe. This doesn't make them automatically liberal, or even stupid. It makes them normal people.

The liberal ones are the Amarr who believe she was cloned or faked her death, but don't care.

Thanks, Yoshita, this is pretty much what I was thinking, glad I'm not the only one

[Matariki Rain]

I actually disagree with this. There can be conservative Amarr who believe that the TC's nonsense isn't nonsense at all. [Etc.]

What Yoshito said.

(And thanks for saving me from writing up the Amarrian apologia I was rehearsing in my mind.)

[Alain Colcer]

I really wish CCP would add a "warning: This article/section-of-an-article is written from an Out-Of-Character point of view and is not suitable for in-character quotation" or something along those lines, or even split articles into "fiction portal" and "universe information portal" sub-portals to clarify what we as players and what we as characters can draw from.

+1 please

[Yoshito Sanders]

I really wish CCP would add a "warning: This article/section-of-an-article is written from an Out-Of-Character point of view and is not suitable for in-character quotation" or something along those lines, or even split articles into "fiction portal" and "universe information portal" sub-portals to clarify what we as players and what we as characters can draw from.

+1 please

For all the people wanting this, make sure CCP knows that you want it. Post it on the Fiction forum or something. I don't know if Abraxas and the other guys behind the portal are reading this page, but he's responded to a few things on the official forums.

[Morwen Lagann]

It isn't very conservative to throw out the Godflesh doctrine (along with the dishwater and the kitchen sink) just because someone shows up magically on time when they're needed.

Especially considering the implications of doing so, and the precedent it sets.

[Verone]

Personally, I don't see why so many people are up in arms about there being no OOC/IC divide on the Wiki. Frankly, I'd consider it an insult to my already small amount of intelligence if everything on there was labelled "hurr durr, this is OOC/IC information".

The fact of the matter is that the Wikipedia is just that... a wiki. An INFORMATION DUMP. It's nothing more. It's ALL VIEWED FROM AN OOC PERSPECTIVE to give us a good OOC knowledge of New Eden's backstory and Eve's setting.

As roleplayers and as the creators of our characters, every one of us should be able to reasonably distinguish what our characters do, and do not know from the information that's displayed on the Eve Wiki. Hell, I've had characters of mine be deliberately wrong about things in the past even though I'm aware of a particular piece of backstory from an OOC perspective, purely because my character wasn't aware of the facts surrounding it.

True, there are people who like to godmode, and who'll link wiki entries in character as a way of saying "hurr durr, ur doin it wrong", but in the end people just need to accept that it's utterly shit roleplay to do that, and there are people who will godmode, and people who will be wankers with ooc information regardless of how the wiki is labelled.

It should all be treat as OOC, because in my opinion one of the greatest hallmarks of an awesome roleplayer is the ability to have a rock solid, black and white divide between out of character and in character information.

There's no use in people getting ass tight over the wiki with regards to IC/OOC separation imo.

[Matariki Rain]

Verone, it sounds like I've got quite a different take on the wiki.

People working for and with CCP have, in general, done an excellent job of dividing IC from OOC. IGS is IC. News items which I'll call "within the world" are IC. The Arek'Jaalan coordinator is IC (sometimes more so than the players). Most other things from CCP are OOC.

If the wiki is an unmarked blend of IC and OOC then it is effectively OOC. As an immersionist roleplayer I can't confidently link to it or refer to it IC. It means there is still a gap in the EVE universe for the IC equivalent or equivalents, complete with in-character debate about the factual basis and choice of wording used for some topics.

I'd like the wiki--or a wiki, or a goodly portion of the wiki that's clearly marked--to be something Matariki could use to learn about the cluster, not just something Matariki's-player could use to learn about the gameworld of EVE.

What we've got now is a very good beginning. I think--although I'm still open to better suggestions--that I'd like it to get its brackets on as part of the next step towards making it somewhere where information can be revealed and spread as what is known changes.

[Yoshito Sanders]

It isn't very conservative to throw out the Godflesh doctrine (along with the dishwater and the kitchen sink) just because someone shows up magically on time when they're needed.

Especially considering the implications of doing so, and the precedent it sets.

They're not throwing the Godflesh doctrine out. They do not believe it has been violated. They legitimately believe that Jamyl was raised from the dead by the power of God, not through science. Ask them for proof that she wasn't clone and they have none. They ask you for proof she was cloned and you have none. The only evidence is completely circumstantial. She was dead. She was a capsuleer. Now she's not dead. Those are the only facts known.

The simplest thing (to a mind that has not been fully absorbed in an all-encompasing state religion for their entire lives) would be to say "she cloned." But this is a society where belief in God is paramount; falling only slightly below is trust in the church and the Heirs. They say she returned from the dead without violating the doctrine of Sacred Flesh. This changes things immensely. Now it's not just "She was dead. She was a capsuleer. Now she's not dead." You're adding in "everyone I've been taught my entire life to trust is lying to me." When faced with that or "God raised her from the dead" it becomes very easy to see why people would choose to believe "God raised her from the dead."

[Esna Pitoojee]

Verone, it sounds like I've got quite a different take on the wiki.

People working for and with CCP have, in general, done an excellent job of dividing IC from OOC. IGS is IC. News items which I'll call "within the world" are IC. The Arek'Jaalan coordinator is IC (sometimes more so than the players). Most other things from CCP are OOC.

If the wiki is an unmarked blend of IC and OOC then it is effectively OOC. As an immersionist roleplayer I can't confidently link to it or refer to it IC. It means there is still a gap in the EVE universe for the IC equivalent or equivalents, complete with in-character debate about the factual basis and choice of wording used for some topics.

I'd like the wiki--or a wiki, or a goodly portion of the wiki that's clearly marked--to be something Matariki could use to learn about the cluster, not just something Matariki's-player could use to learn about the gameworld of EVE.

What we've got now is a very good beginning. I think--although I'm still open to better suggestions--that I'd like it to get its brackets on as part of the next step towards making it somewhere where information can be revealed and spread as what is known changes.

It's also quite troublesome for me when I'm talking to new players who don't have a solid grip on the background of the universe yet. If one of them asks me, for instance, how the Empyrean War (i.e., faction warfare) started, I could point them to the article on the Elder Invasion... but then I'd also have to warn them that we don't actually know that Jamyl used a Terran weapon, etc.

[orange]

Perhaps we should collectively write a primer?  With references to the annual review articles (which I think is mostly IC, would have to check)?