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[Yoshito Sanders]

So the 9th largest single city in the Federation is larger than the most populous city on Earth? That doesn't seem too outrageous to me. How big do you expect individual cities to be? Most people likely do live on planets, but that doesn't mean they are all packed into a single city like sardines. Tokyo is overcrowded as it is. How many more people could you possibly fit into a metro area before it simply becomes unlivable?

It's not that there are going to be cities with a billion people in them; it's that there are going to be thousands of cities the size of New York. There are thousands of planets in Gallente space. Hundreds of them are probably temperate worlds that are inhabited, each with several large cities of 20-30 million.

Even the core worlds I would expect to not have more than 10-15 billion people on them. That's pushing up against the amount of people you can fit on a single Earth-sized planet comfortably. Especially for the Federation, which is supposedly all up in the terraforming of planets, presumably to settle people on and spread the population out some.

Assuming that everything must linearly scale with population numbers is making a mistake. Yeah, there are an order of magnitude more people in New Eden than there are on Earth. That doesn't immediately mean that you have cities with 100 times as many people with the same number of cities. It means you have 100 times as many cities with the same number of people. Or, rather, somewhere in between. Which, considering the 9th largest city in the Federation has more people in it than the largest city on Earth, those 8 other larger cities must be pretty huge.

[orange]

I think a civilization capable of terraforming worlds and building orbiting stations also can build very "vertical" cities, where the population per km2 is pretty dense, but the density per km3 is "nice."

It just makes me pause and think, "do I expect hives or New York City?"  I am thinking Hong Kong & Tokyo taken to extremes, with buildings stretching to the sky.  Maybe I have the wrong idea.

[Yoshito Sanders]

That just doesn't seem like the Gallente style to me. The few pictures we have of Gallente cities, such as the art for the Crystal Boulevard and Hometown Heroes chrons, show skyscrapers with big, open skies behind them. I'm sure they could build giant hives, but do they want to? Do they need to? There seems to be plenty of space for them to inhabit without building massive arcologies.

[Silver Night]

[mod]Not a matter of rules, so much as presenting another possibility: Feel free to start thread for any given article you want to discuss the implications, etc. of. That way each one people want to talk about can have it's own, and we have cohesive discussions.[/mod]

On a less mod-y note, I have been working almost constantly, so I haven't had any time to go over all this new stuff. Very much looking forward to it.

[Matariki Rain]

I'm not sure I understand the problem of there being a "Herko-ness" to anything. I always felt he was good at evoking the mixed horror/beauty that was the EVE setting. He influenced my perception of the EVE universe heavily, at least, and I know he did several others as well.

He was a loved and influential chronicler of EVE. I, personally, find that his writing tends to push through my zone of "this is deep and intense" to "I'm having trouble accepting this seriously any longer". That's a matter of personal taste. I think it's great that people like you and Graelyn loved an EVE-writer's work so much, and I agree that exposure to Herko's writings strongly colours some players' perceptions of the world of EVE. And every player of a Caldari character should know at least Cold Wind.

As for the gender roles, we unfortunately only see a single female spirit. So it's difficult to draw gender conclusions too greatly simply from that one example, especially as Heart-of-the-Forest is depicted as both protected by the Winds and harmed by them, while being a protector and a teacher.

Indeed, we don't know whether we're seeing a biased selection. Do you think we are, though?

First for a question from me: have we heard of Heart-of-the-Forest before? My recollection of the Caldari pantheon was that it was all male and only the winds, alongside a Shinto-like ancestor cult. My impression of the Caldari homeworld was that it was either an ice planet or tundra, too cold for trees, although I'm less certain of that and the current description of the world gives it a temperate equatorial zone and good productivity.

I find the addition of Heart-of-the-Forest makes for an internally-plausible mythic balance, and quite a powerful one. And I find myself thinking of it as "Wendy and the Lost Boys". I also wonder how it would be used in rhetoric, cultural references, and the personal branding of aspiring executives.

The gender relations in most of the empires are poorly defined anyway, aside from a few references in character creation that don't really paint much of a whole picture. In general, New Eden appears to have almost utter equality between the genders. Considering the societal level of New Eden, plus the age of the religion, it doesn't seem too surprising that there might be gender roles defined in it that are not supported in the modern society.

Oh, there's been a long, hard dark age living in tunnels under the surface while the marooned planet progressed through its partial terraforming, followed by huge changes. It's quite possible--even likely--that there have been major social changes. But what was the dark age culture, and why? And what are things really like now?

[Seriphyn]

The Caldari spirituality article reads like a giant wankfest in "caldari r awsumsauce" I feel. While it doesn't necessarily need to be two-sided like other articles, it doesn't have a very encyclopedic/academic flare to it, unlike elsewhere.

Stuff like...

Storm Wind is the fiercest of the Winds, aside from an enraged Cold Wind, but also has a playful side, dancing among the peaks and teasing Mountain Wind

Compare to the objective outlook many other articles have, it's almost cheesy. The Hueromont article is great because it's really good at showing a two-sided approach to the city, and even matters that APPEAR one-sided, the downsides/criticisms are more subtle/indirect (that does sum up the Federation's downsides, doesn't it? You have to be clever to point out the flaws from apparently awesome things).

Speaking of Hueromont...this article suggests the issues of overpopulation with the Gallente. There is no need to burden your infrastructure and the local environment by having massive cities, when you can shift the population to other cities across hundreds of worlds, underwater, and maybe even in the sky (floating sky cities?). That's what I reckon, anyway.

[orange]

There is an interesting conflict.

There is the Category:Lore, which has a ton of interesting articles about all the various things in Eve.   However, the "old" corporation entries still exist as well.

[Seriphyn]

Looks like they aim to flesh out all the NPC corps?

[orange]

Sort of...

They copy-pasted, changed tags (ref) for the Lai Dai Corporation page from my test entry.

[Matariki Rain]

Sort of...

They copy-pasted, changed tags (ref) for the Lai Dai Corporation page from my test entry.

Nice test entry. I'd love to see more NPC groups with this information gathered together.

(I suspect a number of us have made similar lists of the ships favoured NPC groups build and the places where they're active.)

[orange]

Sort of...

They copy-pasted, changed tags (ref) for the Lai Dai Corporation page from my test entry.

Nice test entry. I'd love to see more NPC groups with this information gathered together.

(I suspect a number of us have made similar lists of the ships favoured NPC groups build and the places where they're active.)

My biggest concern is that we are going to be barred from updating the Lore section in order to keep it "clean."

To me this will make it harder to consolidate useful Lore information from scattered sources and connect dots that are not readily apparent.

Eventually I think it would be great if the NPC descriptions in the database pointed to the wiki pages.  Integration with the in-game browser and item links could make it a useful in-game tool.

[Seriphyn]

Going from the giant "Locked" there, it does appear we are barred from contributing. Which is good, considering someone wrote how the Gallente were "ultrasocialist" on the page for the New Caldari.

The consolidation thing appears to be the job of Abraxas and his guys, I think. That's what the devblog mentioned anyway.

[Kyoko Sakoda]

I understand the power the old Cold Wind chronicle had for many at the time, but there's an element of Herko-ness to it that it find uncomfortable. I also find the gendering of the winds and "Heart-of-the-Forest" awkward: a society which comes up with that mythos "should" have a particular view of gender roles which I hadn't seen explicitly elsewhere in Caldari background.

Yeah, I find it a bit odd because the Caldari have previously been mentioned to be the most gender-neutral society of the four.

Then again, Iceland is considered the most egalitarian state in the world by varying organizations, and they very much had gendered gods and spirits in the pagan times.

[Senn Typhos]

I understand the power the old Cold Wind chronicle had for many at the time, but there's an element of Herko-ness to it that it find uncomfortable. I also find the gendering of the winds and "Heart-of-the-Forest" awkward: a society which comes up with that mythos "should" have a particular view of gender roles which I hadn't seen explicitly elsewhere in Caldari background.

Yeah, I find it a bit odd because the Caldari have previously been mentioned to be the most gender-neutral society of the four.

Then again, Iceland is considered the most egalitarian state in the world by varying organizations, and they very much had gendered gods and spirits in the pagan times.

It may not have always been so. Heart-of-the-Forest could have been part of the earliest Caldari narrative which has since (theoretically) evolved into the gender-neutral nation we've had described in the "current" fiction. The tradition, being so important to the culture, might have been preserved regardless of the change.

[orange]

Going from the giant "Locked" there, it does appear we are barred from contributing. Which is good, considering someone wrote how the Gallente were "ultrasocialist" on the page for the New Caldari.

The consolidation thing appears to be the job of Abraxas and his guys, I think. That's what the devblog mentioned anyway.

How is it a good thing?

You can edit (and I did) the New Caldari page to remove the description of the Gallente as being "ultrasocialist."  Now, the same cannot be said for you wanting to provide additional information to build an article up.

For example the Black Eagles article, might be one you are interested in contributing to; perhaps by providing a timeline of news events in which Black Eagle involvement is likely or by fixing their broken image link.  Or maybe just fixing small things like typos that create bad links.