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[Louella Dougans]

the moderation is going to be the problem.

doesn't matter what forum profile is used, there's going to be only a handful of actual people behind the controls.

so, there's always going to be the suspicion that A is held to a different standard than B, because A is in the same corp as one of the forum staff, and B is not. We've already seen that discussion enough times here, about how some posters (some of which deleted their account), regularly posted stuff that ended up catacombed, and never seemed to face any consequences, in some cases seeming to receive praise from forum staff, while other posters do something once, and seemingly get banned, or at least publicly warned they could be banned.

So, that situation does not lend itself to a tight rules regime for the forum.

But if you have a loose rules regime, where only the most uncontroversially unacceptable posting gets moderated (pornography as an example), then... that rules regime isn't really any different from the IGS.

so what happens ?

[Havohej]

For the record, based on comments here by team members and comments downstairs, no ban list would carry over.  OOC bans of people on this OOC forum are for OOC behaviours on this OOC forum.  Any new IC forum would be an absolute clean slate.

For any concerns of bias amongst the moderation team that we have (which would almost certainly carry over to a new IC forum - with the potential for new moderators as well) more or less targeting individual users of a new IC forum, I would like to point out that none of the people involved with the issues that led to this forum's creation were "autobanned" or "targeted" for unfairly strict scrutiny by this moderation team - despite one or two of those users actively attempting to provoke this team in the early stages of this forum.

I would also like to point out that in the only instance of a member of the moderation team being clearly seen to have unfairly targeted an individual user based on personal vendetta, that moderator was removed from the team.

[Mizhara]

You're taking things to extremes. First off, there'll never be perfect moderation solutions, but moderation is still better than no moderation. This means an alternative to the IGS will by default be superior simply by dint of having any moderation at all. Secondly, no one has yet mentioned a single time that there'd be some sort of draconian ruleset. So far, the discussion has leaned towards simply using the IGS ruleset that isn't currently enforced.

There are middle roads between zero moderation and draconian moderation and I'm reasonably sure you can recognize that the Backstage moderation is not on either extreme, even though it has occasionally been uneven.

It seems to me like some of the hostility towards an alternative to the IGS is founded on "My shit's not going to get tolerated there, gotta oppose this". I am pretty sure we can safely say that if Backstage is any indication, there'll be plenty of room to amend one's own attitudes and bullshit before any irreparable damage is done.

[Karmilla Strife]

I personally don't think moderation would be the problem as the IGS does not moderate for many of their rules as Morwen noted earlier.

[Louella Dougans]

It seems to me like some of the hostility towards an alternative to the IGS is founded on "My shit's not going to get tolerated there, gotta oppose this". I am pretty sure we can safely say that if Backstage is any indication, there'll be plenty of room to amend one's own attitudes and bullshit before any irreparable damage is done.

lol no. Where do you get that ?

[Havohej]

It seems to me like some of the hostility towards an alternative to the IGS is founded on "My shit's not going to get tolerated there, gotta oppose this". I am pretty sure we can safely say that if Backstage is any indication, there'll be plenty of room to amend one's own attitudes and bullshit before any irreparable damage is done.

lol no. Where do you get that ?

[admin]As you are not the only user posting in opposition of this prospect, it should not be assumed that the quoted comment is specifically directed toward you.  Even if it is, let's not derail the topic with it.[/admin]

[Silver Night]

While we can all wish for a perfect, ideal moderator uninvolved and unlinked to any other human beings it is a truth in any community-based forum that the admins and moderators are likely to be members of that community (and as such have links of varying type to the members of that community). So, as with Backstage, we will just have to do the best we can. While your concerns represent a 'problem' of sorts, it is a problem that every single other forum always has to deal with and I think the fact that any number of forums for different communities exist and many are quite useful even given the universality of said 'problem' would seem to indicate that it isn't an insurmountable stumbling block. Indeed, it is a very natural part of virtually every single forum - and as with many other problems if it isn't handled correctly people will vote with their feet.

[Louella Dougans]

well, it's better to get the inevitable forum moderation argument sorted, before everyone pours in a pile of man-hours on doing ~stuff~, rather than after, which would cause a lot of burnouts and such.

[Lyn Farel]

It is always funny to see that people that hold different opinions or arguments are more and more called for "making crises where there is none" and failing to be clear where there is a clear miscommunication or just clear refusal of one side to ever trying to understand or consider it in the first place. Hope it's the former though.

That doesn't seem to be the criticism. Otherwise, it is covered under my comment that any forum has to deal with that balance.

Yes indeed, although the official forum is a separate case in itself. Subject to similar issues, but still official with no tangible ties with players entitled to exert authority.

Since clarity seems to be an issue in this thread, let me ask: are you claiming that CCP moderators do not have ties to players or player organizations?

Heh, good point. Granted.

[Anyanka Funk]

For the creators and mods, please consider this proposal. A subsection for supporting characters which are not yet capsuleers. This would be impossible on IGS and in game but would make a whole hell of a lot of sense for people wanting to rp their supporting characters, crew, or new capsuleers pre-death. I would be willing to make a few more accounts on this site with full disclosure that it is I if there would be any problems. This could also give people new to rp someplace to start before they decide to make that toon or pay a subscription. Fleshing out their story a bit before jumping in head first.

[Anyanka Funk]

For the creators and mods, please consider this proposal. A subsection for supporting characters which are not yet capsuleers. This would be impossible on IGS and in game but would make a whole hell of a lot of sense for people wanting to rp their supporting characters, crew, or new capsuleers pre-death. I would be willing to make a few more accounts on this site with full disclosure that it is I if there would be any problems. This could also give people new to rp someplace to start before they decide to make that toon or pay a subscription. Fleshing out their story a bit before jumping in head first.

Maybe call it something like "Baseliner Bar"? Baseliner only establishment.

[Silver Night]

I could see some use for a section like that. We will see how much interest there is.

[Jace]

It seems to me that it would just turn into another 'post your Fiction' section due to lack of use. I can't imagine any situation where any of my characters would want to interact with other people's baseliners. But to each their own, if it got use it would be nifty for folks that had interest in it.

[Anyanka Funk]

It seems to me that it would just turn into another 'post your Fiction' section due to lack of use. I can't imagine any situation where any of my characters would want to interact with other people's baseliners. But to each their own, if it got use it would be nifty for folks that had interest in it.

I think to make it useful it would have to exclude capsuleers. But we will see.

New IC forum will allow for more inventive roleplay regardless by not being chained to in game mechanics.

[Jace]

It seems to me that it would just turn into another 'post your Fiction' section due to lack of use. I can't imagine any situation where any of my characters would want to interact with other people's baseliners. But to each their own, if it got use it would be nifty for folks that had interest in it.

I think to make it useful it would have to exclude capsuleers. But we will see.

New IC forum will allow for more inventive roleplay regardless by not being chained to in game mechanics.

In which case I wonder how many people would be interested in it. But I don't have any objection to it, just wondering how much use it would get.