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[Silver Night]

I turn the argument on it's head.

People say that the "poor quality" of the IGS, means people are dissuaded from posting "good rp" on it, and that this IC forum would mean that more "good rp" occurs.

I turn that upside down.

If people are dissuaded from posting RP things onto the IGS, then maybe, the RP things weren't actually that good anyway.


Also: If someone writes articles about their private planet or solar system, on the IGS, then the wider community of EVE players is able to involve themselves, for good or bad.
I'm thinking here of someone saying that e.g. planet III (temperate) of system X is the capital of a civilisation they've set up. Someone organises a fleet of bombers to lob bombs at that planet, and posts screenshots of so doing. That is something that could happen when such things are posted on the IGS. So Be It.

If instead, the articles about Planet III (temperate) of system X are posted on some IC forum that the vast majority of EVE players do not have access to, then, all it is, is a shield against the big meanies. Says that you don't want your private worldbuilding to be interfered with in any way.

I.e. this:

I see no reason to create a slightly larger circlejerk for people that are used to having their RP unchallenged in their own clique.

Masturbation in any shape or form should be done away from the public.

Sorry about the phrasing.

vOv

do whatever.

Of the minority of Eve players who actually use the official forums, I expect and even smaller minority of them ever access the IGS. Also, assuming that a new forum will be so popular that it will displace the official forums is rather putting the cart before the horse - and I expect we would see quite a lot of cross-posting. If you are running an event or something, you want as wide a net as possible. You put your announcement both places, and if you are so inclined maybe put a link on the IGS post saying 'Discussion here' if you prefer to link people over to our forum rather than the official one. For many other people, posting on the new forum might be a way to reach an audience within the RP community who has given up on reading the IGS (I'm sure there are a few here and there. I'm largely one of them, for example.)

Also, you still seems to be assuming there will be some kind of automatic exclusion for people or organizations and I don't know where you are getting that (aside from, as mentioned, possible carry-over bans for people already permabanned on Backstage. That will have to be discussed though - but would involve a very small number of individuals. Like, less than 5 IIRC.) Unless you yourself are proposing such an idea, or someone else does, kindly leave it out of the discussion as it seems to simply be a strawman for you to stridently object to.

[Synthia]

Also, you still seems to be assuming there will be some kind of automatic exclusion for people or organizations and I don't know where you are getting that

Unless you yourself are proposing such an idea, or someone else does, kindly leave it out of the discussion as it seems to simply be a strawman for you to stridently object to.

People are excluded from posting by default. If there are any forum sub-sections that are visible only to members of certain groups (group membership requiring approval), then people are excluded from both reading and posting by default.

If that wasn't obvious, then, I don't see why it wasn't.

[Jace]

That's true of any forum anywhere. There is always a banlist.

[Morwen Lagann]

If you're trying to refer to my comments about possibly making use of usergroups to separate IC and OOC 'names' for use on specific forums, you would do well to review the entire context of said comments instead of making up crises where there are none:

If we're doing it on the very same url, how are we going to separate characters and Backstage posters though? I would have thought we'd need a separate forum for this kind of thing.

Well, either we would have to have everyone sign up all the characters the want to use on a new forum, or we would have people just sign up new characters for existing alts on Backstage in addition to the ones they already have (which is allowed already, for people who want to be able to participate OOC and discuss things they have done on different characters but want to keep private whose alt they are. We can see IP addresses for moderation, so we would be able to tell if people we trying to astroturf in the rest of the forum by talking to themselves.)

Edit: I personally wouldn't even mind if people wanted to have a totally unaffiliated identity for OOC use (there are a couple people who do this, currently) plus their character names registered. Again, I don't think it would be very different than the situation with a separate URL, except everything would be in one place.

Bit of a pain to keep logging in and out for different forum sections, though. I understand what you're getting at with the possible under-utilization but I'm not sure it's the best idea. Might clutter backstage up a bit more than it already is and a separate site (on the same domain) would be a bit easier to deal with from a user pov. Would also make for a better overall experience, since that could be expanded (in time) to be a full on In Character galnet portal hosting news services (Jandice's stuff for instance, and Gutter Press) and other nifty IC things in time.

You would have to log in and out anyway?

When using multiple characters sure, but I think many would be like me and primarily post on one character mostly, which'd mean just staying logged in on that character on that forum and occasionally logging in an alt account for an off-hand post and go back to the main. If it's a subsection of this forum, it'd mean relogging every time you go from IC to OOC and back again. I know I'd get real tired of logging in and out all the time, and chances are I'd mess it up and post IC on the OOC account and vice versa.

Anyway, that's a minor gripe and not necessarily too important.

I think that use of usergroups can also handle IC/OOC posting - you can just put all API-linked characters on an account into a "characters" usergroup, and the non-character (ie, main account name) into a "players" usergroup. Only allow members of the "characters" usergroup to post in the IC sections, and... boom? It should work, in theory. Might need some testing to get it to work, though.

Usergroups only make sense when the titular "IC Sections" are subforums on Backstage and not on a separate subdomain (currently jokingly referred to as "Centerstage" in the mods' discussion area). If we have an entirely IC forum there is no need for usergroups because we would almost certainly ask that people make OOC posting accounts here on Backstage and refrain from OOC discussion on the IC forum. On top of that, they were suggested as a convenience tool to prevent people from accidentally posting with their OOC identity in the IC sections of the forum. Not to mention that the usergroups would be open to join by the users themselves without any need for the moderators or admins to do it for you. (What's that leave the barrier to entry at, again? Oh, that's right, the ability to read and follow instructions.)

Furthermore, the discussion about providing an SSO solution via API plugins is entirely hypothetical and assumes that we could even find and install one that fit our needs - specifically in our case, the ability to attach multiple characters to the account through the API, but not use them as a "display name" for the account so that users could post in a similar fashion to how the official EVE forums work. The odds of this are fairly low to begin with, given the lack of options out there. (Milo has made an offhand comment or two about possibly modifying or writing one, for what it's worth, but since he also said he wasn't very familiar with SMF then there may be issues there.)

As a result, even with a separate forum, the most likely solution will be "create an account for each character you wish to post with, with the option of providing an extremely limited API that would allow the forum to automatically display your character's portrait, corp and alliance."

As for concerns about IP address visibility, I'm aware some of you have higher levels of paranoia than others and find the inability to log into Backstage through a proxy incredibly vexing. For what this forum is, I see absolutely zero need for it: we're dealing with each other as players, after all, not our characters. If you, the player, a single human being, are causing problems and doing so with multiple accounts, it is our responsibility as staff to deal with you as a single person regardless of however many accounts you have. Having multiple accounts is a privilege, not a right, and abuse of that privilege is not something we have ever taken lightly.

As far as any new forum goes, logging in via proxies may be up for discussion (it has not come up internally yet) but I have my doubts that there will be a change. (I don't even know if/how it can be changed on SMF, at any rate - that would be a question for Misan regardless of whether there's a desire to do it or not.)

[Synthia]

That wasn't what I was referring to at all.

So your snarkiness is wholly uncalled for. And against forum rules. Which doesn't help the reputation of any prospective IC forum.

[Mizhara]

It would probably help if you told us what you were referring to then, as it seems no one's quite gotten it yet.

[Jace]

I'm not understanding the frustration here, Synthia. What exactly is the criticism?

[Lyn Farel]

I thought it was perfectly understandable. Or, I hope I understood it properly...

Player screening basically.

As long as you start to enforce serious rules, the pros have already been exposed, but the cons are that those rules are by definition completely subjective, also created by a small group of people, for a small group of people.

They are also enforced by players that also have characters and motivations ingame, as well as ideals and various ethics OOCly that will colour their judgement.

[Jace]

That doesn't seem to be the criticism. Otherwise, it is covered under my comment that any forum has to deal with that balance.

[Morwen Lagann]

I was the only person who brought up usergroups before you did.

People are excluded from posting by default. If there are any forum sub-sections that are visible only to members of certain groups (group membership requiring approval), then people are excluded from both reading and posting by default.

If that wasn't obvious, then, I don't see why it wasn't.

This, in no uncertain terms, is a ridiculous argument and you should be ashamed of making it.

"People are excluded from posting by default" - Like on pretty much every other forum, the official EVE forums included, where you need an account to post?

"If there are any forum sub-sections that are visible only to members of certain groups (group membership requiring approval), then people are excluded from both reading and posting by default" - A wild leap from a statement of the obvious to the assumption of the ludicrous. Why would we EVER hide sections of the forum that weren't specifically for the admins and moderators? I also direct you, again, to my previous post. What the hell makes you think we would want to micromanage usergroup membership when we could just set up groups with open membership and say "go add this usergroup to your account/character to post in the IC sections" and let people handle it themselves? Again, usergroups are not needed but were offered as a solution to help people avoid making OOC posts in the IC sections. They are not intended to wall anyone off from anything and if you are making such an assumption you are forcing words into my mouth and you need to knock it off.

You are either making up crises where none exist, failing to post in such a manner that it is clear that you are not doing that, or failing utterly at being clear about what your point actually is.

[Jace]

I'm hoping it is just unclear communication, otherwise this is borderline absurdity in the hopes of pre-victimizing oneself for martyrdom.

[Lyn Farel]

It is always funny to see that people that hold different opinions or arguments are more and more called for "making crises where there is none" and "failing to be clear" where there is a clear miscommunication or just clear refusal of one side to ever trying to understand or consider it in the first place. Hope it's the former though.

That doesn't seem to be the criticism. Otherwise, it is covered under my comment that any forum has to deal with that balance.

Yes indeed, although the official forum is a separate case in itself. Subject to similar issues, but still official with no tangible ties with players entitled to exert authority.

[Jace]

It is always funny to see that people that hold different opinions or arguments are more and more called for "making crises where there is none" and failing to be clear where there is a clear miscommunication or just clear refusal of one side to ever trying to understand or consider it in the first place. Hope it's the former though.

That doesn't seem to be the criticism. Otherwise, it is covered under my comment that any forum has to deal with that balance.

Yes indeed, although the official forum is a separate case in itself. Subject to similar issues, but still official with no tangible ties with players entitled to exert authority.

Since clarity seems to be an issue in this thread, let me ask: are you claiming that CCP moderators do not have ties to players or player organizations?

[Arista Shahni]

:leans back with popcorn, waits with wild, feverish grin:

You know, if "people" are "concerned" about "super sekret hidden IC forums they'd already be excluded from" they could, oh, you know, "go pay for a domain", "set up forums" ..

.. wait, this disussion has happened before, hasn't it?

* Arista Shahni looks for her copy of the Little Red Hen.

I am sensing a story with moral shortly to follow.

[Karmilla Strife]

I would strongly support an alternative to IGS. Every time I read that forum I get heartburn. It is nearly as toxic as CAOD.

I don't think creating an alternative forum will kill off IGS, as there are probably players like me who would not be taking much activity from the official forums. Likewise, there will be people who are interested in maintaining an active forum presence on IGS and won't be interested in "unofficial" forums. Galnet is a big place, it would be nice to have some options to reflect that. I for one would enjoy something that is a bit more of a forum and not as much of a shouting match.

I don't think any bans should carry over, and any whining about the poor victims of mod abuse should wait until there has actually been someone banned or moderated.