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[Ciarente]

[mod] Thread locked for a deep breath on everyone's part, please. While you're waiting, maybe take another look athttp://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?action=page;id=2 and http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?action=page;id=4We appreciate your support of our efforts to set a tone of civility and respect here.    [/mod]

[Ciarente]

[mod]Thread unlocked. Please keep the tone civil, respect each other's opinions, and generally act like grown-ups. [/mod]

[Ashar Kor-Azor]

This one's for Havvo.

Swim careful.

EDIT:

...and generally act like grown-ups.

.........


......


...Fuck ><

[Lillith Blackheart]

I would strongly suggest that one thing that the Amarr Bloc should be looking into doing is getting some push behind that fellow that just switched to EoM. Help him grow his corp. Help him become a more prevalent entity.

This is the sort of thinking you need to breathe some life into the otherwise stagnant Amarr Bloc.

Get some House warfare going on.

Get something going on other than "Slaves YAAARRR!!" and "Matari Terrorists! BOO!!" and the more recent "Slaves......please?" from the 'liberal' side.

From an IC standpoint this is virtually impossible to do, but from an OOC standpoint you all need to start working with these people splitting out to attempt other things to help get them some publicity and perhaps if you have people applying that don't fit PIE or 1PG or what-have-you that would be better fit with something like EoM or whatnot (they don't like the idea that they can't pirate with PIE, is that the core of what they want to do? EoM might be perfect for them) and get it going.

I would suggest that factionizing (I made up a word) the Amarr Bloc as a whole would be beneficial to you. Internal Strife should be growing within the Empire with the changes that have been going on. These have not been gradual. The Empire has shuddered with massive shifts in perspective recently. Why are the Amarr still so focussed on the Matari and specifically the Ushra'Khan when they've got paranoia and in-faction distrust growing?

Where are these aspects?

[Rodj Blake]

Interesting post there Graelyn.

Regarding the amount of PF on the PIE forum, yes it was a valid point a couple of years ago, but pretty much all of the important stuff there is now on the Eve wiki.

A big part of the problem was that a lot of us bitter old vets never properly documented stuff with history in mind, even to our own people.   As a result, a lot of the past is locked away in people's heads - and a lot of them don't even play the game any more.

A while ago I did make an effort to pull things together, and the result is the PIE timeline which can be found at http://www.pieinc.co.uk/community/board/index.php?showtopic=22073.  I'm reasonably certain that it's visible to the public.   Whilst it's centred around PIE, I hope that others with an interest in Amarr will find it of use.

As for the balkanisation of the Amarr bloc: yes, you make some valid points.  There have historically been some personality clashes that have lead to divisions between us and I hope that these can be healed in the future. I reject, however, the claim that PIE is in any way a "cult of personality" - if nothing else we change CEO far often for that!

[Rodj Blake]

I would strongly suggest that one thing that the Amarr Bloc should be looking into doing is getting some push behind that fellow that just switched to EoM. Help him grow his corp. Help him become a more prevalent entity.

This is the sort of thinking you need to breathe some life into the otherwise stagnant Amarr Bloc.

Get some House warfare going on.

Get something going on other than "Slaves YAAARRR!!" and "Matari Terrorists! BOO!!" and the more recent "Slaves......please?" from the 'liberal' side.

From an IC standpoint this is virtually impossible to do, but from an OOC standpoint you all need to start working with these people splitting out to attempt other things to help get them some publicity and perhaps if you have people applying that don't fit PIE or 1PG or what-have-you that would be better fit with something like EoM or whatnot (they don't like the idea that they can't pirate with PIE, is that the core of what they want to do? EoM might be perfect for them) and get it going.

I would suggest that factionizing (I made up a word) the Amarr Bloc as a whole would be beneficial to you. Internal Strife should be growing within the Empire with the changes that have been going on. These have not been gradual. The Empire has shuddered with massive shifts in perspective recently. Why are the Amarr still so focussed on the Matari and specifically the Ushra'Khan when they've got paranoia and in-faction distrust growing?

Where are these aspects?

Oh, there's internal strife alright.  It's just that we Amarrians choose to keep it internal  

[Lillith Blackheart]

Then effectively it doesn't exist.

It needs to be visible and apparent to the outside world, or it's just a circle jerk that isn't relavent on the grand scheme.

I realize you were being tongue-in-cheek there, Rodj, but that is a serious issue that is plaguing the Amarr Bloc and has been since I started playing four years ago.

What the rest of the world sees is just the UK and the Amarr Bloc having an ePeen contest, and that is all they see as being the goings on in Amarr, so it appears stagnant. Occasionally the SF/Amarr Bloc conflict shows up.

Beyond that all anyone sees is "We like slaves. YAY!!"

Bring these things out to the public, otherwise the Bloc will continue to wither as it has been.

[Laerise [PIE]]

While I see your reasoning Lilith I beg to disagree.

Just because it's internal and because we do not make a big igs drama fest out of it, does not make it less relevant.
Maybe you, and many others, will just have to accept that it's not 'our game' to provide the public with amusing annecdotes the same way others do.
Actually, if you pay close attention, you will soon see the ripples of the narrative created by our actions, be that on killboards, various fora or even the ingame news.
Yes, its not being put on a silver plater, but does that make it nonexistant?
I dare say it does not.
If a tree falls in the forest there is a noise, even if noone's there - the solution to see tree's falling is, you guessed it, to go to the forest, or talk to people who do.

[Havohej]

Might be a textwall, but I read through it all and found it very interesting. Applause is in order.

Never were a part of the Amarr block so I cannot provide any opinion on the topic my self.

I please can has PM answer? 

(Dunno if you have the pop-up notification on, the base notification is pretty subtle)

[Lillith Blackheart]

While I see your reasoning Lilith I beg to disagree.

Which you are, of course, free to.

Just because it's internal and because we do not make a big igs drama fest out of it, does not make it less relevant.

Well, see, that's the thing. It actually does. If you're hoping to expand your dynamics or ranks, then people need to see what's going on. It doesn't have to be a "big IGS Drama Fest" by any stretch. Anyone who thinks the IGS is the core of what the RP community involves in is blinding themselves, but the public needs to be able to see it. Even if they are just seeing it from an OOC perspective of after-the-fact storytelling, it needs to be visible. Otherwise it plain does not exist.

It is, in a nutshell, a private circle jerk with a bunch of people going on with each other about how great they are, and NO ONE ELSE GETS TO PLAY TOO!!

This is detrimental in all aspects to any sort of shift or dynamism in the Amarr Bloc as a whole.

Maybe you, and many others, will just have to accept that it's not 'our game' to provide the public with amusing annecdotes the same way others do.
Actually, if you pay close attention, you will soon see the ripples of the narrative created by our actions, be that on killboards, various fora or even the ingame news.

And that's a problem. You're making people hunt for something that they might find interesting -- especially from an OOC perspective their character is unaware of -- that might make them want to get involved. You are effectively shooting yourselves in the proverbial foot and forcing stagnation by taking your ball and going home. You are effectively limiting yourselves and choosing to let your entire effort die under the weight of its own collective ego.

This is a problem. Links in peoples' sigs to storyboards that give after-action novella-style accounts of the goings on is more than sufficient. Giving people direction to find the information is necessary. If it is all happening behind closed doors you are destroying yourselves.

Yes, its not being put on a silver plater, but does that make it nonexistant?
I dare say it does not.

I dare say that you are arguing semantics.

If a tree falls in the forest there is a noise, even if noone's there - the solution to see tree's falling is, you guessed it, to go to the forest, or talk to people who do.

If there is no one to hear it, then the noise was completely irrelevant. If you want to be anything other than a stagnant entity that many people view as a collective joke because they only see posturing between yourself and the Ushra'Khan, then you need to not make them hunt for the information. You need to bring it to them. Claiming that the IGS is the only source just makes it clearly evident how out of touch people can be with the way that it works.

Edit: Broken quote tags are for the lose.

[Ashar Kor-Azor]

Interesting post there Graelyn.

Try again, Archbishop.

Regarding the amount of PF on the PIE forum, yes it was a valid point a couple of years ago, but pretty much all of the important stuff there is now on the Eve wiki.

Only half of the point was related to the stuff on your internal forums. The other half was that the best that was done with it was a throwing up of hands and a dump into the EVE-wiki, or a chatsubo thread, or an EVE-library thread, and that this was weak tea.

Another point is that the collective bloc forums, and especially the PIE forums, are such a cavernous and wasted landscape of dead database segments and labyrinthine histories that some potentially essential shit would likely elude all efforts smaller than perhaps community-spanning ones.

We got the Holder Oath from a single event, as far as I know. We got the crux of the nature of the scriptures from a chat with a Tetrimon character. We got Holder relations from some bullshit peace summit in Kor-Azor. There's evidently real potential for a pot of gold under every upturned dustbin, and all one can do is rope others into a collective shrug about it.

It's a mite frustrating.

A big part of the problem was that a lot of us bitter old vets never properly documented stuff with history in mind, even to our own people.   As a result, a lot of the past is locked away in people's heads - and a lot of them don't even play the game any more.

Precisely why I am suggesting you either start again now, or be careful about claiming your labors are worth preserving. If none of it's going anywhere, it's worthless. Might as well burn it.

A while ago I did make an effort to pull things together, and the result is the PIE timeline which can be found at http://www.pieinc.co.uk/community/board/index.php?showtopic=22073.  I'm reasonably certain that it's visible to the public.   Whilst it's centred around PIE, I hope that others with an interest in Amarr will find it of use.

Well done - looks to be an excellent job.

YOINK.

As for the balkanisation of the Amarr bloc: yes, you make some valid points.  There have historically been some personality clashes that have lead to divisions between us and I hope that these can be healed in the future.

Peachy-keen.

I'm seeing more potential every day now I'm back for some sort of reshuffling along the lines of a 'bloc' and a 'fringe.' Not political lines so much as large, organized corps going in one pile and smaller corps without real purpose settling into the other. But that's for some other discussion.

I reject, however, the claim that PIE is in any way a "cult of personality" - if nothing else we change CEO far often for that!

It's been over four years for me, and far longer for everyone else.

Trust me on this. I've run plenty of cults of personality, and seen plenty more. If personality cult status spoke to gender or liberality, PIE'd be more flamin' than lit napalm on thermite.

*snip* - Havo

[Ashar Kor-Azor]

Re: visibility of Amarr roleplay inside the bloc -

The only valid reason to keep in-character conflicts quiet in-character, and I am speaking here with whatever measure of guru-voice I get after a few years of integration and study, is that Amarrians value privacy and the outward appearance of restraint in interpersonal matters; it is seen as a virtue to some degree across all cultures deeply rooted in the Amarrian faith.

That's it. That's fucking it; that is the only reason.

Anything that goes beyond the interpersonal is free to be made public, and the only reason it isn't is because the bloc's old boy network either can't figure out how to make peace with the larger community or can't figure out how to control its own press except to restrict it to the bloc itself.

This has, once again, done irreparable damage to recruitment.

Non-Amarr aren't supposed to get to SPEAK to Amarr matters. That's true. There is, however, no real need to prevent them from seeing Amarr matters that aren't interpersonal. The result of policies that back never giving the foreigners a chance to glimpse racial affairs is simple: potential recruits and roleplayers have a much harder time learning what Amarrian roleplay constitutes.

There is really not a good reason for things to be this way anymore, but in the end, people who equate being a contender in faction war first and roleplay second aren't primarily committed to the latter. As such, rather than upholding the way of the loyalist, they take on the mantle of the sellsword.

Which is fine and dandy, if you're playing for that sort of thing.

[Rodj Blake]

I reject, however, the claim that PIE is in any way a "cult of personality" - if nothing else we change CEO far often for that!

It's been over four years for me, and far longer for everyone else.

Trust me on this. I've run plenty of cults of personality, and seen plenty more. If personality cult status spoke to gender or liberality, PIE'd be more flamin' than lit napalm on thermite.

*snip* - Havo

It's probably a minor point in the greater scheme of things, but a cult of personality requires a personality to be a dictatorial subject of adoration.    PIE is run more as an oligarchy where ultimate power is shared between an inner circle.    You'd probably be quite surprised at how little power the PIE CEO actually has.

[Laerise [PIE]]

Just because it's internal and because we do not make a big igs drama fest out of it, does not make it less relevant.

Well, see, that's the thing. It actually does. If you're hoping to expand your dynamics or ranks, then people need to see what's going on. It doesn't have to be a "big IGS Drama Fest" by any stretch. Anyone who thinks the IGS is the core of what the RP community involves in is blinding themselves, but the public needs to be able to see it. Even if they are just seeing it from an OOC perspective of after-the-fact storytelling, it needs to be visible. Otherwise it plain does not exist.

It is, in a nutshell, a private circle jerk with a bunch of people going on with each other about how great they are, and NO ONE ELSE GETS TO PLAY TOO!!

Of course you get to play as well, I wouldn't want to keep anyone out of it

Your chain of argument is sound, it just fails to accept that information gathering of any kind might entail some sort of effort.
There are multiple public venues in which you can run into loyalists, some of them accept even really bad people like pirates and terrorists.

To give you a better idea of what I mean I'll compare the bloc to the ISGC.

Every now and again a public post is made somewhere while most of it is dealt with under the wraps.
Of course there are some tidbits which I can find on your public forums, but most of it is, as you call it, "a circle jerk".
If I want to find out more about pod pilot racing in the ISGC I will have to actually engage characters who take part in these races / know more of them than me in a conversation and/ or visit a place where I can find out more by simply listening to conversations, Daredevils used to be such a place.

So, in a nutshell, if you want to play too all you have to do is get involved in one kind or another - and I'd be surprised if anyone turned an ooc request for information away (as long as it is not sensitive that is).

Maybe you, and many others, will just have to accept that it's not 'our game' to provide the public with amusing annecdotes the same way others do.
Actually, if you pay close attention, you will soon see the ripples of the narrative created by our actions, be that on killboards, various fora or even the ingame news.

And that's a problem. You're making people hunt for something that they might find interesting -- especially from an OOC perspective their character is unaware of -- that might make them want to get involved. You are effectively shooting yourselves in the proverbial foot and forcing stagnation by taking your ball and going home. You are effectively limiting yourselves and choosing to let your entire effort die under the weight of its own collective ego.

This is a problem. Links in peoples' sigs to storyboards that give after-action novella-style accounts of the goings on is more than sufficient. Giving people direction to find the information is necessary. If it is all happening behind closed doors you are destroying yourselves.

No, I am merely making it a little bit harder to get to the prize they desire.
Requiring someone to put some effort into research is not bad at all, I have done more than enough research in my studies to know the warm feeling coursing through my veins whenever I finally tap my fingers into knowledge that was hidden from me before.

Also, not everything happens behind closed doors, there are a few open ooc character blogs of PIE members out there, you'll just have to either go look for them or ask.

Yes, its not being put on a silver plater, but does that make it nonexistant?
I dare say it does not.

I dare say that you are arguing semantics.

Agreed.

If a tree falls in the forest there is a noise, even if noone's there - the solution to see tree's falling is, you guessed it, to go to the forest, or talk to people who do.

If there is no one to hear it, then the noise was completely irrelevant. If you want to be anything other than a stagnant entity that many people view as a collective joke because they only see posturing between yourself and the Ushra'Khan, then you need to not make them hunt for the information. You need to bring it to them. Claiming that the IGS is the only source just makes it clearly evident how out of touch people can be with the way that it works.

Edit: Broken quote tags are for the lose.

I don't feel responsible if people choose to be willingly ignorant.
If they're not interrested enough into the amarr bloc and/or its conflicts to do at least the very basics of research, then I don't think anyone can help them really.

Just as a clarification, I never claimed that the IGS was the only source, there are various ways to spread knowledge, my personal favorite is personal convos - others preferr blogs, making movies or writing stories. Maybe I just preferr to tell our stories myself, in private, but I'm starting to ramble, so lets stop before everyone falls asleep

[Havohej]

[admin]Please avoid presenting opinions or inherently unprovable perceptions as absolute fact, especially where the subject of these is actual people.  In almost every case, this will cause those people to lash out.  Express your opinion, but please don't try to force someone to acknowledge it as fact :)From The FAQ:Q: What about free and frank debate?A: Strange as it may seem, given some of the forums on the internet, but it is possible to have an honest exchange of views without being rude, hostile, offensive, aggressive or bullying. That kind of behaviour destroys communities, virtual and otherwise, and Will Not Be Tolerated.Thread unlocked.[/admin]