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[Vieve]

Bleh, androids. We've got so many people walking around with cybernetics in their heads that I can't see much of a universal call for them (yes, even in the Federation, where surely any company who designed a truly superior sex-bot would find itself slapped with a class action suit by the United Pleasure Workers' Association).  Even AIMEDs bug me some, because it makes me wonder about the state of paramedic training in the cluster.

Software/Information Constructs that skirt the edge of AIs?  Sure.

Robot assemblers (possibly vastly popular in the State, even if they could afford to import cheap Matari labor now), automated sentry guns, personal combat drones and multi-purpose drones used in laboratory and hazardous task work?  Definitely. I can see them all being widely used.   

[Isobel Mitar]

Some PF snippets and theories:

Gallente evelopedia entry, http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Gallente

Pioneers of artificial intelligence, the Federation once relied almost entirely on drone fleets to defend its beliefs and borders. But the limitations of this technology and the lack of a human element—both in terms of a military strategy, and as a means of spreading influence— eventually reached a critical point. Today, Gallentean starships are manned by some of the bravest men and women of New Eden.

From mission description of "Heart of the Rogue Drone", http://www.electusmatari.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=9516&pid=82860#pid82860 (emphasis mine)

Rogue drones began innocently enough, as part of a Gallente scientist’s research into drones that could learn and operate independently. The artificial intelligence he created was in itself fairly primitive and non-threatening, but in its self-perpetuation it developed beyond the scope of the scientist’s work, and the drones began to truly think for themselves. Using the justification that the results had produced extreme and life-threatening risk to human life, CONCORD declared all research into artificial intelligence illegal unless performed in a controlled and isolated environment under the watchful eye of DED experts. Proposals for engaging in such research are vetted carefully and the scientists presenting the proposals are subject to extreme background scrutiny.

I added emphasis to a part, as I think that is one of the a crucial points that might help reconcile the existence of advanced robotics and AIs and still needing crew and factory workers to oversee the robot work. (Beyond it all being space opera technobabble handwavium of "We want the world to be this way")

Research into learning/evolving AIs was a bad idea, but leaving that field alone does not prevent significant advances in mechanical robotics, such as for example robot dexterity or robot sight. Maybe mechanical robotics are quite advanced, but robots engaging in complex tasks that cannot be preprogrammed/pre-taught are controlled on site or remotely by operators?

If there are robot soldiers in Eve (I can't remember any examples in PF right now, though), they would likely fall to that category, for example. "Join the Gallente Army! Remote control soldier robots all day!"

In contemporary world there are also many tasks in manufacturing that could in theory be automated, but it makes no sense to do so, because the automation is cumbersome (expensive, cannot be made reliable, maintenance is difficult etc) and labour is cheap. Many tasks can be difficult to automate if you can't make higher-level AIs that can learn and adjust themselves for the fear of your drones turning rogue - any robots will of necessity be bound to limited number of tasks and evironments.

Edited: Fixed the links

[Seriphyn]

The Minmatar are quite capable of designing, building and using high tech, TYVM. They may have logistics issues still which guide some of their choices, and different priorities about what's important, but the best of the Matari tech is still comparable with anyone elses.

Have a nice day.

It's pretty clear that the Republic Fleet "does not have access to the high-tech equipment of the other empires". Minmatar are ingenious in different ways. For example, while a Caldari/Gallente might hack a security terminal, a Minmatar might look at its exact physical construction instead.

Anyway, I'm not totally bought by this illegal AI things...it's a general issue with CCP releasing early PF then releasing later PF that contradicts it...

The Gallente are "pioneers of artificial intelligence". This is a recent piece of PF (though it was implied in earlier pieces), compared to the illegalization of AI study which is an older one. So what's correct? I think we'll have to wait for CCP to elaborate.

Maybe its a subconscious, emotivist thing from myself. In the "mind's eye", I just think it would be outright more interesting if Gallente society is heavily reliant on such drones, AI and automation...makes them a bloody sight more interesting.

[Mathra Hiede]

ProMatari Stuff™

It's pretty clear that the Republic Fleet "does not have access to the high-tech equipment of the other empires". Minmatar are ingenious in different ways. For example, while a Caldari/Gallente might hack a security terminal, a Minmatar might look at its exact physical construction instead.

Anyway, I'm not totally bought by this illegal AI things...it's a general issue with CCP releasing early PF then releasing later PF that contradicts it...

The Gallente are "pioneers of artificial intelligence". This is a recent piece of PF (though it was implied in earlier pieces), compared to the illegalization of AI study which is an older one. So what's correct? I think we'll have to wait for CCP to elaborate.

Maybe its a subconscious, emotivist thing from myself. In the "mind's eye", I just think it would be outright more interesting if Gallente society is heavily reliant on such drones, AI and automation...makes them a bloody sight more interesting.

I don't think the two are mutually exclusive Seri.

They can be the "Pioneers" of the AI industry only to have the Rogue drone incident which results in it become an illegal practice to study and develop AI's.

Also, the idea of combat robots not being able to identify specific humans could easily be rectified by say... all friendly troops using a certain ID-chip with a coding sequence that the robot 'sees' as a Friend, I mean its EVE and just about everything has tech crammed into it, so why wouldn't the Empires have ID tags and coding signals inbuilt into the suits etc to allow for instantaneous recognisation by friends... infact as much as I hate to say it, I think *cringes* TonyG used something similar in his "Ruthless" story

[Elsebeth Rhiannon]

It's pretty clear that the Republic Fleet "does not have access to the high-tech equipment of the other empires".

References, please?

[Isobel Mitar]

Anyway, I'm not totally bought by this illegal AI things...it's a general issue with CCP releasing early PF then releasing later PF that contradicts it...

The Gallente are "pioneers of artificial intelligence". This is a recent piece of PF (though it was implied in earlier pieces), compared to the illegalization of AI study which is an older one. So what's correct? I think we'll have to wait for CCP to elaborate.

Actually, both of the excerpts I posted are fairly new. I believe Heart of the Rogue Drone is a new level 4 courier storyline mission.

[Elsebeth Rhiannon]

Bel found it for me; in RF's description it says

"Though it has not the same access to advanced weaponry or hi-tech equipment as the fleets of the other empires"

and that's probably what Seri is misquoting.

I do not personally read that as RF not being able to use high-tech, or not using it. I read it as them not having the same access as bigger, wealthier nations: they still have some, just it is harder to come by due to money and logistics.

[lallara zhuul]

I do not personally read that as RF not being able to use high-tech, or not using it. I read it as them not having the same access as bigger, wealthier nations: they still have some, just it is harder to come by due to money and logistics.

...with Elders and whomever funneling money into fleets outside the Republic.

[Ulphus]

Minmatar are ingenious in different ways. For example, while a Caldari/Gallente might hack a security terminal, a Minmatar might look at its exact physical construction instead.

Could you stop stereotyping trillions of Matari as being all the same and unable to work a [expletive deleted] computer?

It's like the American's being so proud of their fancy military technology that they assume they're technologically superior to the Russians, and being unpleasantly surprised to see things like welded titanium hulls on attack submarines, and vectored thrust on Su-27s that let them do maneuvers like the Cobra, and ejection seats that actually work at mach 1 - all things the Americans couldn't do at the time they discovered the Russians were doing it.

Sometimes, the Russian approach was somewhat brute-force, but it would be a mistake to say they were incapable of subtlety or technological innovation, or that every Russian approached every problem the same way. Sometimes the American approach is brute-force. (Ask me about their offer to fix Wellington Airport sometime) I think it depends more on the scientist or engineer in question than their race.

Sebiestor are "widely respected as being among the most innovative thinkers of the cluster", and "an ingenious people with a natural fondness for engineering."

They've been pioneering advances in applied sciences (despite labouring under chronic material shortages) for a thousand years. I don't believe that building modern spaceships is possible without a good understanding of all the technologies that go into it, including electronics and computer technology.

I think it's more the chronic material shortages that are likely to affect what Matari build than their ability or "way of thinking"

[Inara Subaka]

There's several instances in PF referring to AI or androids or robots... et al. But, one of the more blatant ones is AIMeds; trusting the majority of your healthcare to an AI source indicates a rather strong layer of trust in that system.

Not all AI is going to go 'rogue' like the Rogue Drones have, however it's probably nearly impossible to predict which AI programming will lead to going rogue and which initial programming is going to stay working with you. However, it seems that some (like AIMeds) have been programmed correctly so they aren't going to turn on their creators (at least, with any regular occurrence).

The reason for limiting AI research is because often people wouldn't take the necessary precautions while developing AI. Such as restricting it to an isolated network (at least during development), along with a bunch of other safety concerns.

All of that said.... when an AI does go rogue, it's likely to cause a mess of things.

[Kaleigh Doyle]

I think one needs to be careful in how we interpret automation and artificial intelligence. Drones, builder robots, nanites, are intelligent in that they are tasked with performing a particular function better than human counterparts. How well they perform that task is largely dependent upon how well programmed they are to handle variables in said task. The need for self-aware, mechanical humanoids with two arms, two legs, a head and a torso is ridiculous when an inhuman design could perform the task just as well with much less programming.

I don't see how an advanced, space-faring universe with knowledge of computers and uploaded, digital minds (See Cloning, Zainou, etc.) wouldn't have an abundance of automated, intelligent devices performing the functions of society that no one wants to.

With all that said, the scale of technology and the capability for destruction an artificial intelligence could inflict if allowed to penetrate computer networks would certainly be cause for alarm for any civilization. Especially with the presence of rogue drones in entire regions of space, and sleeper robots lurking in wormholes, there are very clear examples of science gone horribly wrong (unlike reality, where we only have skynet ). I'm sure all the major powers still tinker with sentient AI. in the hopes of gaining an edge, while still publicly opposing them. ^_^

[Z.Sinraali]

Fraggin' Deus

[Laerise [PIE]]

Fraggin' Deus

I AM SORRY SIN', I'M AFRAID I CAN'T LET YOU DO THAT.

[Isobel Mitar]

There's several instances in PF referring to AI or androids or robots... et al. But, one of the more blatant ones is AIMeds; trusting the majority of your healthcare to an AI source indicates a rather strong layer of trust in that system.

Can you find where you read the above, I can only find the following and it reads to me slightly differently?
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/AIMEDs

In particular, I don't read "trust" and "majority of healthcare" in there, rather that people use AIMEDs because it is perceived to be better than nothing when it is not possible to get to a human doctor.

I'm not disputing the existence of robots, PF does indeed have many examples of them. I am just curious as to how our mental images of how stuff - in particular AIMEDs - might work differ? I have so far imagined Eve AIMEDs to be more like the descendants of modern day expert systems ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expert_system ) utilized to some extent by people themselves and by medical personnel with more or less training as opposed to self-aware robots independently treating patients. I have assumed such AIMEDs would have little self-awareness and a limited ability to learn - at least regarding things outside their field.

[Elsebeth Rhiannon]

uploaded, digital minds (See Cloning, Zainou, etc.)

Actually, not confirmed by PF as far as I know (and currently, that's pretty far). See
http://www.electusmatari.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=8599 (compilation of all PF referring to clones) and
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1380078&page=4#109 (comment on it by CCP Dropbear; the responses to that are worth reading too).