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[BloodBird]

*post*

Your point about the Gallente seems a thinly-veiled IC insult from a fed-hater on the IGS.

Your 'argument' reminds me of a Vikarion post. However you likely came to the conclusion from some viewpoint. Would you care to elaborate on how you did that? What makes you construct an argument like this ooc?

[Seriphyn]

Now, the Caldari State being like Israel and always mobilized for war is definitely something. The Citadel is the most fortified region in the cluster, or something, and most of the State is highsec. Had to fight a long bloody war for independence, and thus militarism reigns the strongest in their society.

As for Lallara's post, fairplay for the rest, but the one about the Gallente does seem like a massive assumption, where did you extrapolate that from?

[Benjamin Shepherd]

What Seriphyn said.

[lallara zhuul]

Le sigh.

Basically all of the regular military across all the nations are the ones that have gone through the socialization of their parents, education and media, and come through as model citizens following the indoctrination of their culture to the letter, they follow it so far that they are willing to join a career which is about killing people that would think otherwise than their culture dictates. Therefore they are easily affected by tools of indoctrination, which military has pretty much perfected, from uplifting music to uniforms, from dehumanization of the enemy to strengthening the belief on what they are doing is right.

You can argue about the defensive aspect of the military, but the military defends by killing the enemy, not by handing them flowers.

Or my favourite, the humanitarian aspect of the military. There is no such animal, military is usually used at the frontline of humanitarian tasks because it is mobile, it has good logistics, plenty of manpower and in a democracy you have to keep the home folks happy.
Still, militarys primary purpose is to kill people.

Most of my previous post addresses this point in a bit flamish way.

Then the other aspects of it.

Like Gallentean social order.

Historically Gallenteans were a monarchy, since most of the relics of the time that such monarchy was around are still intact it can be deduced that the transition from a pure monarchy to a democracy was gradual.
Therefore the nobility that owned the infrastructure of the nation were constantly at an upper hand towards the rest of the society when talking about economic gain.
Personally I draw direct parallels to current Great Britain, most of the land is still owned by the nobility.
Alongside all of this is the educational system, in our world we did not get public education until the 18th century before that everyone was privately taught for money.
Those private institutions are still running and give the best education in the world to the same families that have sent their children there for centuries (most of the British representatives are from same private schools and know each other from those times.)

Have something similar happening on Gallente Prime and you have an intellectual upper class that was and is the nobility of old guiding things.
Military academies that produce the higher tier of the military also follow a similar system that regular education does.
Within the military you can only advance to a certain rank if you have not gone through one of these military academies.
Basically a regular person joins the military career after going through the regular education system and can reach a certain rank through the inherent meritocracy of the military, while you can only reach the highest ranks of the military if you have started your military career from the day you started your education.

Throw in the quite high possibility of having money backed media and such inequalities are easily hidden away.

As I stated earlier socialization of an individual comes from their parents, education and media.

When the public education system was put together, who defined what was taught there, the intellectual upper class, the economic powers or the people?

After a few generations the socialization done through the education and media starts being fed to the children in their mothers milk in the form of beliefs expressed by the parents, which the child imitates and adopts (sorry guys, when push comes to shove, you are your parents.)

Therefore making perfect soldiers that truly believe the party line and will act accordingly if someone threatens it.

By dehumanizing the enemy and doing whatever they can towards them.

Let's have a few real life examples.

Everyone knows the Abu Ghraib prison, how about Stanford Prison Experiment?

How about dehumanization through propaganda tools, in Soviet Union, Communist China, pre-WW2 Germany, United States, just about any nation that has ever been in a war.

In case you can't see the links because of the theme :
Dehumanization: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dehumanization
Stanford Prison Experiment: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment
Land ownership in UK: http://libcom.org/news/article.php/land-ownership-right-roam-uk-10032006
Current education system: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDZFcDGpL4U

By the way, it's not only Great Britain that has similar system going on in the background, the system in the States is pretty much the same, same goes for France and Germany as well.
Scandinavia seems to be immune to it at the moment, well as far as I can tell. (My only experience is with Finland, that has Scandinavian culture but lacks the monarchy and the baggage it brings.)
I only used Britain as an example because the player of Seri is part of that society.

[orange]

Is there an ever increasing disconnect between the Federation's population, representatives, and military?

The US, as an example, has an increasing disconnect between those who serve in its military and those who make national decision.  The schools that America's "nobility" attends work hard to discourage its students from joining the military and the number of veterans in public office is on the decline.

[Gottii]

Lallara, considering that Finland had Nazi SS units drawn from its population during WWII, I think its fair to that Finland is quite capable of dehumanizing its opponents, just like everyone else.  Its a human trait in war, one expressed in varying degrees, not one that a few particular cultures have a monopoly on.

[Vincent Pryce]

Lallara, considering that Finland had Nazi SS units drawn from its population during WWII, I think its fair to that Finland is quite capable of dehumanizing its opponents, just like everyone else.  Its a human trait in war, one expressed in varying degrees, not one that a few particular cultures have a monopoly on.

Well that is a fringe example. Also joining the SS meant wealth and influence. However, if you look at how couple of generations after a massive proportion of us still view the Russians... That's dehumanization at it's finest. Granted it is far less sever than say a generation ago, but it still exists in much larger quantities than most Finns would openly admit. So yes, we are as guilty as the next nation.

[lallara zhuul]

Actually with the Scandinavia/Finland reference I was referring to the power elite being educated in private institutions not the dehumanization thing.

Finns had concentration camps during the civil war in 1918, theres places named after the whole thing like 'Murder Island' where 'reds' were slaughtered at some point.

Most of the stuff about the military in my previous post is applicable to any society, past, present or future.

[GoGo Yubari]

Lallara, considering that Finland had Nazi SS units drawn from its population during WWII, I think its fair to that Finland is quite capable of dehumanizing its opponents, just like everyone else.  Its a human trait in war, one expressed in varying degrees, not one that a few particular cultures have a monopoly on.

Well that is a fringe example. Also joining the SS meant wealth and influence. However, if you look at how couple of generations after a massive proportion of us still view the Russians... That's dehumanization at it's finest. Granted it is far less sever than say a generation ago, but it still exists in much larger quantities than most Finns would openly admit. So yes, we are as guilty as the next nation.

Yeah, the SS example is an interesting one to bring up .. and one thet immediately explodes the topic because of obscure Internet laws, heh. Anyway, joining the SS didn't have anything to do with dehumanizing the enemy. What happened after they joined certainly may have, but that would be an expression of German military culture at time...

Agreed on the dehahumanizing of Russians, though. A look at the older generation kind of proves the fact. Then again, it's difficult to blame them for their often harsh opinions, considering what happened. Interestingly, and as casualty to real politik, the political relationship with them since the war hasn't been characterized by the same kind of antagonism.

Anyway... as much as I like to discuss Finnish culture and history, I'm not sure this discourse is or should be entirely that relevant to out current topic. I for one love Lallara's characterization of Gallente military tradition. I'm sure some will take offense to the slightly antagonistic tone of it, but I think it gave the Feds a hell of lot of individual flavor - which is precisely what the faction needs. I wanna play those Feds!

[Seriphyn]

"We face a dilemma that the armed forces have always faced within our democratic society. The values necessary to defend this society are often at odds with the values of the society itself. To be effective, we must concentrate not on the values of a liberal society, but on the hard values of the battlefield. These values are simple: live or die, win or lose"

The above quote is a great way to play the Feds IMO, that's how I do it.

I think the Feds as a standard, Westernized sci-fi military (ie. Halo, ME, w/e) isn't necessarily a bad thing. I use my military experience IRL to add a lot of applied military know-how to EL-G, such as regulation, forms of address etc. It's hardly a stretch, and so far, EL-G members seem to enjoy it.

I mean, as Feds, you have the opportunity to RP a "straight military". Caldari State has corporations in mind, Minmatar has tribes in mind, and Amarr has God in mind. While all militaries have scope for pragmatism (ie. 'Dark End of Space'), Feds might realize that 'freedom' and 'liberty' is merely a PR tool to forward your goals (much like President Foiritan). Take a read of EL-G's corpdesc, there's no mention of 'freedom' or 'liberty', just pure seeking national interest and military objectives.

As we have seen, Fed idealism RP hasn't been sustainable. Taking a "military pragmatism" approach as I have done with EL-G feels more endurable...anyway, I leave you with this quote taken from a mission agent...

"The preservation of the Federation, its interests abroad, its culture and peoples, and the respect and pride in its traditions, are priority one for any true Gallente citizen. We are here to ensure that our way of life is not threatened, our livelihood is extant, and the freedom that we so love is available to every citizen. For this purpose, the freedom to enforce security is at our disposal."

NATIONAL INTEREST! What is the pure, practical gains for the widespread, power-projecting Federation?

[Lyn Farel]

I mean, as Feds, you have the opportunity to RP a "straight military". Caldari State has corporations in mind, Minmatar has tribes in mind, and Amarr has God in mind. While all militaries have scope for pragmatism (ie. 'Dark End of Space'), Feds might realize that 'freedom' and 'liberty' is merely a PR tool to forward your goals (much like President Foiritan). Take a read of EL-G's corpdesc, there's no mention of 'freedom' or 'liberty', just pure seeking national interest and military objectives.

I think it works for the other factions too : one might say tribal way of life or liberation of slaves is just a PR tool, or that the caldari nationalism is a PR tool, or even that God is a PR tool, much like freedom might be in some of the gallente military corps.

[Jan Kesler]

Perhaps I shall do my part in describing the, possible, Caldari military tradition.

One way might be that the State would have many little groups of highly trained professionals, who work for different corporations within the State. Now these soldiers, if you will, would be both well trained and equipped to handle most of the issues that rise up - either within the State or with its neighbours.

Clearly this kind of a force would not be nearly enough to fight a full-scale war against any other race with equal military capabilities.

Therefore it might be that when the shit really hits the fan, and a foreign nation's fleets start pouring into the State, they recruit just about anyone who is capable into their military. Also at this points the Caldari corporations may say "There is no I in the State" and momentarily forget their disagreements and stop competing with each other and invest all their resources for the "greater good". This way the Caldari could, possibly, mass produce a numerous amount of ships within a short time and create a massive military force from almost nothing.

And of course after the conflict comes to an end, the Caldari will have the remaining ships, supplies and personell in reserve for next time they are needed.

Of course, this is all just my theory.

[Mithfindel]

Caldari recruiting system would highly depend on the corporation. Kaalakiota and the other Patriots most likely encourage behaviour that is beneficial militarily as a part of their corporate culture (think hiking in the mountains, singing Home Guard march songs, practicing marksmanship, games requiring a tactical eye). SuVee might see this a waste, compared to visiting a corporate amusement park. NOH might prefer selling entertainment products. The liberals are slightly difficult to place on the scheme, but after all, if we look at the previous war, it's good to remember that all the current corporations would have been Patriots - and the rest were taken over. Ishukone can be just as ruthless as the Practicals. Hyasyoda can be just as patriotic as KK (though they disagree on what is best for the State).

On military structure, the Caldari Navy can be assumed to be mostly the elite (though the SoE arc suggests that there's some nepotism even in the Navy), along with the elite parts of the corporate security forces. Those patriotic-minded individuals who cannot fit in to corporations and can't get into the Navy will head to Pure Blind and join the Legion, which is about just as elite as the Navy and may even be used to test experimental tech before it finds its way to corporate or Navy use. I assume that the Navy is the primary instrument of fighting a war, with corporate security acting as the fast deploying reserve. Then, as suggested by the chronicle "For the State" ( http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=30-11-09 - though it was at least a paramilitary operation, so the "civilians" were likely trained, as well), at least in certain corporations the civilian population will form a second-line mass reserve, but I'd assume that this would be the last resort (though volunteers may be used earlier). At the technology level of New Eden, I don't think that mostly-untrained civilians stand much of a chance against an organized assault (with the possible exception of heavily fortified positions which the enemy wants to capture intact).

[Benjamin Shepherd]

Just to rebuttle with the Caldari:

[Bataav]

I'll start by admitting I'm only just beginning to play closer attention to Caldari lore so there may be something that disproves my take on the Caldari set up and how it would work but here it is.

It's taken heavily from another scifi universe but the basic theory I think could be tweaked to apply to the Caldari - In the WH40K universe the Imperium of Man's miriad of planets must each pay a tithe in men for the Imperial Guard, while at the same time maintain it's own Planetary Defence Force.

If we use this template and apply it to the Caldari model is it not possible that each Megacorp with it's own private army is required, as a national obligation in the pursuit of "the greater good", is required to transfer a predetermined percentage of it's own security force to State control as part of the wider Caldari Navy on a regular basis?

If we add into this mix the likelyhood that the various Megacorp security forces are going to differ from each other slightly. Whether this is on an operational / tactical basis in the field, or a preference for one item of equipment over another (think Roden Shipyards and CreoDron for drones vs missiles for the Federation's equivalent here) doesn't really matter too much as there would be a strong underlying adherance to a Caldari standard ensuring compatibility in the face of an external threat.

This underlying Caldari standard would be reinforced by a requirement for all Caldari citizens to "volunteer" for National Service at a young age in the Navy (or reserves).

With the Megacorps providing the bulk of the forces (along side other volunteers) I can quite imagine specific regiments, squadrons, units, etc. with links to their progenitor corporation, manifested through internal traditions, warcries, marks of honour, etc.

We can then add into the mix military units that draw from the State penal system that can be mustered at short notice, or expats (similar to the original Mordu's Legion) and you end up with a small, reactive military that has a solid foundation and can operate effectively when needed.