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[Ciarente]

I can imagine reasonable people in situations which made them choose to follow those paths. Nothing about the Amarr, Khanid, Angels or Guristas makes them inhuman.

I'm not sure that I can say the same about the Sansha.

People might choose to follow the sansha ...

* Because they are lonely, or isolated, or have low-self-esteem, or are depressed or feel directionless - people deliberately targeted for recruitment by many organisation that have a 'self-improvement' theme, whether religious, scientific, or other (just have a look at the advertising campaigns for the armed forces in many countries)
* Because they believe themselves more intelligent and capable than their peers and resent that not being recognized, admired and rewarded - people deliberately targeted for recruitment by many extremist organisations. (This would be the sort of person who would join Sansha's nation with the assumption that they are not going to be True Slaves - it'll be all those people who never listened who'll be the True Slaves)
* Because they believe that people are not capable of looking after their own best interests and need some level of control and guidance - a view that, in a less extreme version than 'chip everyone! EVERYONE!', is held by a lot of people at least occasionally.
*Because they're conspiracy theorists - if the government says it, it must be a lie, therefore if the government says Sansha bad, then by definition Sansha good. Every university campus I've ever visited has had some of these folks on it.

[Ghost Hunter]

How is it a 'hammer in the nail' when you are reading primarily from the perspective of the person opposed, who poisoned his guest, and then shot him in the head when there was no hostility involved?
...snip...
How do you say otherwise, when the victim of the story, was the one trying to reason? Negotiate? Display a wide range of emotions throughout the whole 'scene' of the short story, while the main character calls his side 'mindless drones' and 'zombies'? There is alot more going on here that meets the eye, nor will we fully understand what happened in the past that was discussed as it seemed it was an opportunity that was never allowed to prove itself.

Did you read the same story I did? I seem to recall that the visitor basically said "surrender peacefully, or we will send your daughter in to drag you out and shoot you in the head".

Negotiating like that is a bit like the Mafia coming around and saying "nice shop, be a shame if something happened to it" and then complaining when someone reacted badly. I don't see that it paints the Sansha in a particularly good light. They'd been before, and killed before. It was hardly an unprovoked response.

The implications of being able to send in the daughter to do that, speaks to all sorts of associations with things like Pol Pot sending children in to kill their parents, or other unpleasantness. I don't see how you could see that story as a positive one for the Sansha.

I don't think the mafia analogy is appropriate because the quote unquote victim is trying to make the best of an already 'poor' situation. The Mafia analogy to me conveys a certain degree of malice on behalf of the 'mafia' person, which I don't think is the case.

Now, in context with the 'antagonist' (the colony manager) pointing out the Sansha have done this before, the lines get blurred. Malice is a strange emotion I have trouble attributing to the Sansha, when the greater relentlessness of their culture is taken into consideration.

The 'intimidation' does not come off to me as one fueled by aggressive emotions or thuggish behavior. Rather, it seems to be a more sorrow filled attempt at trying to change a situation for the better in the face of what will inevitably happen if they don't.

My inseparable PR instincts are probably stopping me from seeing your perspective, but here's to hoping I get my point across.

[Graelyn]

Uh.

Ok.

[Amann Karris]

The implications of being able to send in the daughter to do that, speaks to all sorts of associations with things like Pol Pot sending children in to kill their parents, or other unpleasantness. I don't see how you could see that story as a positive one for the Sansha.

In the end, who did the killing?

"Murderer," Terden croaked.

"Yes," Fermar replied calmly. Terden's expression showed that this hadn't been the expected reaction. "After my team has gone, everyone left here will die," Fermar said.

"Including me," Terden said, clearing his throat and taking deep, hissing breaths.

When you have nothing left to lose, you have everything to gain.

Fermar understood the Sansha, from his perspective.  He understood Terden.  He allowed Terden to be there, to answer what questions he had left as to the success of his plan.  Perhaps he even wanted to assuage whatever fears or guilt he had lingering in regards to his plan.  But in the end, he had what he wanted.

He wanted to put his daughter out of her misery.  What he was doing was necessary, from his perspective.  An act of kindness, an act of love, the last duty of a father.  A man possessed of a singular goal, a final goal, an end.

Terden?  He's a scout.  He has an objective; to find a target, and to make sure that there is as little collateral damage as possible.  Maybe he got a little sloppy.  Maybe he came to the wrong house at the wrong time.  Maybe in the back of his mind he knew there was something wrong.  Then again, he tried to take the suicide pill, and Fermar stopped him.  Why?

Because he wanted to know that his daughter would be there.  He wanted to to perform one final act as a father.  He wanted to end his daughter's suffering.  Is he right?  Is Nation all that he said?  To Fermar it is the truth, the only truth that matters; his.

I would wager that Nation is far more kind than even it's loyalists believe, but that does not mean there is no toll taken on those it "uplifts".

But, in the end, the latest chronicle isn't about Nation or Terden, it's about a father.  Perhaps in looking for the black and white of a situation we miss the true pallet of color the artist is using.  After all, if the whole world were painted in shades of gray it would make for a rather dull world.

[Gottii]

I think the vast majority of the Nation dont feel malice per se...namely because it suits Kuvakie's purposes that they dont feel that they're doing things out of malice.  They dont feel malice because they cant feel malice.

But threatening to have a man shot by his own daughter if he doesnt do what you want is certainly an objectively malicious act, in every sense of the word.

And in the "I have returned" trailer, Kuvakei sounds utterly malicious and vengeful.  I think the members of Nation feel no malice because they're not allowed to feel malice.  I think the trailer indicates that Kuvakei feels oodles of malice, and wants his hunk of flesh of the people who burned his dream a century ago.

[Amann Karris]

I think the vast majority of the Nation dont feel malice per se...namely because it suits Kuvakie's purposes that they dont feel that they're doing things out of malice.  They dont feel malice because they cant feel malice.

I think it's a Catch 22, and I think you miss the true horror that is Nation; it's nature as a society of slaves.  Let me explain.

But threatening to have a man shot by his own daughter if he doesnt do what you want is certainly an objectively malicious act, in every sense of the word.

Is it?  One life for ten, a hundred, or a thousand.  One life to prevent bloodshed.  One life to prevent a massacre.

And in the "I have returned" trailer, Kuvakei sounds utterly malicious and vengeful.  I think the members of Nation feel no malice because they're not allowed to feel malice.  I think the trailer indicates that Kuvakei feels oodles of malice, and wants his hunk of flesh of the people who burned his dream a century ago.

If Terden is one of the "lucky" ones because he would accept Nation with open arms, what of the 25 million+ taken without their consent?  Your argument relies both on an emotion - malice - and the lack of emotion in said underlings.  What if it's not that simple?

What if you were trapped in your own mind, unable to act on emotions so vital to creativity?

It's not emotions that Sansha's Nation locks away; it's the ability to reason through a course of action, to question.  Pack mentality taken to the extreme.  Instinct harnessed and focused; not necessarily through implants (though in the most extreme cases this is most likely done) but in those more vital to operations, through simple psychological principles.  Do they feel malice?  No.  Are their actions malicious?  From your point of view.

Is Kuvakei mad?  Yes.  He sees humanity as the herd, the pack; and himself as alpha dog.  A Messiah for the wayward flock.  What he does he does out of love for all humanity, and any sacrifices of self are immaterial to the ultimate goal.

Humanity turned on him, and in turn he has justified any means necessary in exacting revenge.  He is an animal trainer who has been nearly mauled by his chosen profession.   Despite this, he is attempting to  bring his "wayward children" into his loving embrace.

Right now, Capsuleers are his one real obstacle.  Now, how to you train an animal?  Simple behaviorism.

"I know you better than you know yourselves."

Our little Kuvakei is a behaviorist.

[Seriphyn]

CITIZEN ASTUR ADDRESSED LOYAL FOLLOWERS FROM HER RESIDENCE IN STAIN, CALLING FOR A RENEWED SENSE OF URGENCY IN COUNTERING THE CAPSULEER THREAT AHEAD OF THIS WEEK'S OPERATIONS

O GUISE...SANSHA CITIZENS LIVE IN HOUSES?! WHY AM I TALKING IN CAPS?

Maybe Seriphyn should pay a visit eeehh *waggles eyebrows*

I think the North Korea angle on Sansha, lol.

WE MUST FIGHT THIS WAR FOR YEARS TO COME. ONLY THROUGH AN ENDLESS WAR WILL THE LAST CAPSULEER COME TO UNDERSTAND THE TRUTH.

Look at the Incursion trailer...the guys under attack aren't the empires, but the capsuleers...

[hellgremlin]

So, hey.

What's everyone think about the upcoming Sansha shenanigans in Deltole?

Deltole is significant.

[Ulphus]

People might choose to follow the sansha ...

Yes, I see your point. A failure of imagination and memory on my part.

[Ulphus]

What frustrates myself as roleplaying a loyalist to Nation is not only the lack of support offered by the expansion, but the fact there is great pile of circumstanial evidence surrounding the faction to suggest there is much more than the evil one-dimensional villains everyone who briefly glances at them, wishes them to be. I begin to wonder what can I do as a player, in order to do in my part of the sandbox, to allow Nation in some way be dispelled of some of the fear that surrounds them and can be brought as another acknowleged nation in the cluster. 

I'm sure there were Gestapo agents who loved their families and gave to charity, but I don't think that's enough to dispell the (deserved) reputation that the Gestapo had.

CCP say the Sansha have people so afraid of them that entire colonies will suicide, or that they'll evacuate and blow up their colony, when they think Sansha are about to raid them. Given what CCP have told us about Sansha as information the public have (ignoring for the moment the information they give us which isn't really IC available, or available to the public), I don't think that fear is unreasonable or misplaced.

So I think it's unlikely that CCP will change the (NPC) levels of fear and loathing of Sansha any time soon, and I'm not sure it would be "realistic" or perhaps, true to the setting, if they did.

I'm Ok with that.

And to be honest, the Sansha supporters arguing "If you stopped shooting at us when we're kidnapping your people accepting new volunteers, then nobody would have to die, so it's all your fault" aren't really helping their cause.

[Elsebeth Rhiannon]

I'm more or less with Ulph here. While there might be circumstantial evidence that there is more to the Nation than simple borg-like Evil, there is direct and explicit evidence in PF that the Sansha are doing stuff to people against their will that makes said people so afraid they rather die and kill their children than risk it. If you take just TBL descriptions of the Nation as basis of what is true, it does not indeed seem the fears are misplaced entirely.

This does not mean all Sansha followers are evil people, of course. People can do hideous stuff out of good motives. But the good intentions do not make that stuff less hideous. I think it would be more useful for Sansha supporter players to invent justifications that these characters use to explain themselves the evil they do than it is to try and think of ways to convince NPCs or other PCs that Sansha are actually fairly fluffy. Because, frankly, I see very little evidence that CCP intends them to be any sort of good guys, even when they probably are more complex than e.g. the intro video alone suggests.

(Of course, they do not seem to intend anyone to be good guys, really. Just various sorts of bad stuff done for humanly understandable motivations. Which is part of why I like EVE. But Sansha seem to be there towards the darker shades of grey the way they are pictured.)

[Casiella]

Are the Sansha feared more intensely than Blood Raiders, or just more widely (across more of the cluster)?

[Ulphus]

Are the Sansha feared more intensely than Blood Raiders, or just more widely (across more of the cluster)?

Interesting question. I don't know about the PF.

Personally, I have OOC internal squick factors for screwing with personalities. Putting a chip (or indeed certain drugs or parasites) in someone's head to make them behave differently and change the person they are freaks me out in a way that just threatening to kill someone does not. For a pod pilot, it seems to me that someone altering your personality to do what they want is one of the ways for you to be destroyed, as apart from just killed.

IC I dislike the Bloodraiders, and shoot them when I can get away with it. OOC I'm surprised that people talk to them in polite company. But fundamentally they're not trying to destroy me, just kill me.

So, yes, I fear the Sansha more.

[Arnulf Ogunkoya]

Are the Sansha feared more intensely than Blood Raiders, or just more widely (across more of the cluster)?

I'd say more.

The Blooders will kill you (eventually). The Sansha take away your free will and make you do their bidding.

And the EoM are just crazy and (as depicted in missions) incompetent. I mean, seriously, hybrids on Amarrian hulls?

IC all three groups are my favourite sort of entity to blow up. You really get a feeling you are doing the cluster a favour by doing so.

Like I said. I'm happy that people are choosing to play subtle evil, even if the characters don't realise that they are serving evil.

[hellgremlin]

Are the Sansha feared more intensely than Blood Raiders, or just more widely (across more of the cluster)?

I'd say the raiders are mostly an Amarr problem. Only the Amarr empire seems to clash with them frequently. Sansha, all four empires have taken a crack at - I'd say all four dread him more.