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[Myyona]

That would probably make sense at the Lorebook.

Yes. There is still a lot of PF out there that I have not documented yet. Especially at the DED sites as I do not run them.

[Seriphyn]

Just forgot this which goes some way to explaining the public attitude and reaction regarding Sansha.

[Borza]

Well, I'd say it demonstrates the public reaction rather than explaining it.

[Arnulf Ogunkoya]

I know that EVE is, in general, a very "shades of grey" place.

Nobody has the moral high ground. Everyone has elements of good and bad inside of them. This is both in person and as groups. Much like the real world in fact. To my mind this is a Good Thing.

However even in the real world there are and have been groups and people that have no redeeming qualities whatsoever (with the possible exception of the original motives in creating them). As a player I honestly believe the Sansha to be such a group. I haven't seen a single thing in game or here to make me think otherwise.

Of course this doesn't mean a Sansha loyalist character might not honestly believe that they are a force for good. They'd just be wrong.

And just to clarify. I have no problem with people playing Sansha loyalists. I think It's great that otherwise opposed groups can find themselves with a common enemy if for no other reason that it gives a good IC reason to speak to people that you'd otherwise just shoot at.

I just disagree with an OOC perception of the Sansha as anything other than the Borg with better tactics and PR. This is, for me, an entirely trivial difference of opinion and one I can cheerfully debate without any danger of real dislike of people who think otherwise.

[Graanvlokkie]

However even in the real world there are and have been groups and people that have no redeeming qualities whatsoever (with the possible exception of the original motives in creating them). As a player I honestly believe the Sansha to be such a group. I haven't seen a single thing in game or here to make me think otherwise.

Of course this doesn't mean a Sansha loyalist character might not honestly believe that they are a force for good. They'd just be wrong.

I dont see this as any different to any other faction. What, in your opinion, is the redeeming quality of the amarr, khanid, angels or guirista's. The list goes on.

[Ulphus]

I dont see this as any different to any other faction. What, in your opinion, is the redeeming quality of the amarr, khanid, angels or guirista's. The list goes on.

I can imagine reasonable people in situations which made them choose to follow those paths. Nothing about the Amarr, Khanid, Angels or Guristas makes them inhuman.

I'm not sure that I can say the same about the Sansha.

[Seriphyn]

I would have to concur with what Arnuld said, including the bit about the fact that IC it's absolutely fine to RP, and makes for compelling, and wonderfully twisted characters.

Sansha's Nation is the "odd one out" in terms of shades of grey. The Amarr Empire's religion has been the cause of "much good" as well as much evil, but the biggest thing is that they have created a stable nation-state that has existed for centuries (it's like saying China are absolutely evil because they are oligarchic communists, the same way saying all of the Empire is evil because of slavery). Even the Angels and Guristas have created somewhat of a state of their own, even if it is totalitarian and establishing a pecking order over what would be anarchy.

Sansha's Nation however is unique. From all the PF, they haven't seemed to create a working nation-state that provides them any redeeming qualities. TBL was especially chilling in this regard. But I'm not about to go IC that "Your characters are evil rawrrawr" because obviously they are going to believe they are doing the right thing.

[orange]

Sansha's Nation however is unique. From all the PF, they haven't seemed to create a working nation-state that provides them any redeeming qualities.

The four major empires turned their combined attention towards a rapidly growing Nation building a working nation-state.   It is unique amongst the non-empires as being the only one of them to have the objective of growing to be a working nation-state.  It was invaded and forced to scatter for doing so.

[Arnulf Ogunkoya]

Sansha's Nation however is unique. From all the PF, they haven't seemed to create a working nation-state that provides them any redeeming qualities.

The four major empires turned their combined attention towards a rapidly growing Nation building a working nation-state.   It is unique amongst the non-empires as being the only one of them to have the objective of growing to be a working nation-state.  It was invaded and forced to scatter for doing so.

Indeed. And that in itself should tell you something. If groups that are usually so opposed could work together for a common goal then there must have been some reason for it.

And I don't think it was envy. I think it was fear.

And I further doubt it was fear that the Sansha would become a shining beacon of hope that their citizens/subjects would run to.

[Arnulf Ogunkoya]

And just to finally hammer down the nail I give you the latest chronicle, The Plague Years.

http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=29-11-10

Are you still so sure that every other NPC is wrong and Sansha loyalist's aren't dupes?

[Arvo Katsuya]

And just to finally hammer down the nail I give you the latest chronicle, The Plague Years.

http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=29-11-10

Are you still so sure that every other NPC is wrong and Sansha loyalist's aren't dupes?

How is it a 'hammer in the nail' when you are reading primarily from the perspective of the person opposed, who poisoned his guest, and then shot him in the head when there was no hostility involved? Usually there is meaning to the picture illustrated to the moment made in the chron. When you initially look at the picture before reading, isn't the first thing that pops into your mind 'Who is the victim?'. This doesn't change here in this story, regardless of what flag our character holds as we play them.

How do you say otherwise, when the victim of the story, was the one trying to reason? Negotiate? Display a wide range of emotions throughout the whole 'scene' of the short story, while the main character calls his side 'mindless drones' and 'zombies'? There is alot more going on here that meets the eye, nor will we fully understand what happened in the past that was discussed as it seemed it was an opportunity that was never allowed to prove itself.

It's the same overbearing irrational fear present that mirrors what the coalition side has believed and spread in propaganda. So much so the point where they overexaggerate and jump to conclusions where things they say to doesn't matter anymore. Where truth or fabricated lie become indistriguishable from each other, and everyone feeds off each other in the momentum to justify killing more Sansha.

Again, think of the Liberty pill incident, which paints the fear of both the standard capsuleer and stories they are told about Nation, and the position civilians have riled themselves over from this pressure cooker of being between a rock and a hard place. Where the image of the capsuleer is death incarnate, and Nation is the biggest boogieman story told in the cluster.

Is Nation these shining beacons of hope? Arvo will say yes, but I of course can objectively say not so much. Are the civilians at the sites all coming willingly? Of course not, but you would likely be surprised it  would be more than you'd think if you looked in the right places for 'why'. Are Nation the 'good guys'? For this event, I'm inclined to say 'yes' in light of the timing and other things surrounding them, but remember all the factions are gray. If all anyone ever does is listen to one side of the story for all purposes of us looking into the grand stage that is the cluster, we surrender ourselves into being ignorant and becoming a statistic in a TV trope.

What frustrates myself as roleplaying a loyalist to Nation is not only the lack of support offered by the expansion, but the fact there is great pile of circumstanial evidence surrounding the faction to suggest there is much more than the evil one-dimensional villains everyone who briefly glances at them, wishes them to be. I begin to wonder what can I do as a player, in order to do in my part of the sandbox, to allow Nation in some way be dispelled of some of the fear that surrounds them and can be brought as another acknowleged nation in the cluster. Will there be some sort of new piece of knowledge unfound or has yet to be revealed to further validate themselves in a way that once done, the storyline will acknowledge it as one of us manage to make that impact as ILF has proven? Or will the sandbox be 'fixed' in such a way that CCP will do so only in a future expansion after Incursion on their own terms?

Those are the things I worry about.

 

[Amann Karris]

http://www.ihavereturned.com/latestreports.html

The other side.

[Ken]

there is great pile of circumstanial evidence surrounding the faction to suggest there is much more than the evil one-dimensional villains everyone who briefly glances at them, wishes them to be.

I support this product and/or service.

And I also think the "ILF approach"--that is determined long-term advocacy--will yield results... of a sort.  The fact will remain, however, that being a Sansha loyalist in New Eden is sort of like being a North Korean loyalist on modern Earth.  The rest of humanity basically thinks you're brainwashed, crazy, or you've run out of other places where people will let you live because you're a real jerk or somesuch.  It is probably the single-most IC reviled RP niche in the game world and will remain so.

But the more people you can attract who have an interest to take that deeper look at the complexity of the Sansha mindset and the RP possibilities it presents and who can help articulate the vision of Nation that you see, the better off the faction will be.  And CCP's plans can go to hell.  You can always be a splinter faction if they ever do something that makes PF Sansha irrevocably borg-like or anything else flat and overdone.

And whatever happens, you'll never run out of war targets. 

[Ulphus]

How is it a 'hammer in the nail' when you are reading primarily from the perspective of the person opposed, who poisoned his guest, and then shot him in the head when there was no hostility involved?
...snip...
How do you say otherwise, when the victim of the story, was the one trying to reason? Negotiate? Display a wide range of emotions throughout the whole 'scene' of the short story, while the main character calls his side 'mindless drones' and 'zombies'? There is alot more going on here that meets the eye, nor will we fully understand what happened in the past that was discussed as it seemed it was an opportunity that was never allowed to prove itself.

Did you read the same story I did? I seem to recall that the visitor basically said "surrender peacefully, or we will send your daughter in to drag you out and shoot you in the head".

Negotiating like that is a bit like the Mafia coming around and saying "nice shop, be a shame if something happened to it" and then complaining when someone reacted badly. I don't see that it paints the Sansha in a particularly good light. They'd been before, and killed before. It was hardly an unprovoked response.

The implications of being able to send in the daughter to do that, speaks to all sorts of associations with things like Pol Pot sending children in to kill their parents, or other unpleasantness. I don't see how you could see that story as a positive one for the Sansha.

[Casiella]

If anybody remembers the conversation in TBL between this particular agent and the male protagonist, they may remember some pretty good explanations for why some folks go along willingly or even seek them out.

There have been times in my life when joining Nation would have seemed like a pretty good alternative.