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that the Solteur-class titans are not the same as the Erebus-class titans piloted by Capsuleers?

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Author Topic: Dear CCP (revisited)  (Read 9597 times)

Vikarion

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Re: Dear CCP (revisited)
« Reply #30 on: 01 May 2015, 14:06 »

So. Lore nerd here. Trust me, I read the lore also. Chronicles, novels, Source, news, trawling the Wiki for stuff that's old.

Oooh, I just realized that my statement might have implied that you haven't read the lore, and I really didn't mean that. I'm sorry.  :(

The Caldari are frequently described as fractious and combative, but we see practically none of it played out in game. When was the last time different factions of Caldari were given a reason to have a go at each other? Today, yes, Lai Dai was implicated in the theft of the Seeadler by the Scope. Before that-- Tibus Heth? Honestly, that stopped being divisive about the time I started back up in March of 2013, save with Diana Kim.

That said, I fullheartedly agree that some more Black Eagle stuff/Roden profiteering/Gallente cultural hegemony stuff would be fun-- but they've played on that more recently with the Midular arc. Again, unfortunately old news.

Ah. I think I have a somewhat longer perspective, perhaps. And, remember, my comment was about internal political conflict.

We've had 2-3 arcs with Caldari corporations going after each other, including one with SuVee and Lai Dai blowing up parts of each other's stations. We had two internal rebellions from the Brotherhood of Freedom, we have a few Chronicles, including the Waschi city uprising in the Mordu Chron. We had internal conflict in the State in TEA, in TBL, and then we had the giant Heth arc which was nothing but more and more internal conflict in the State. And now Falcon is promising more upheaval in the State.

For the Minmatar, we've had, I think, one major internal incident: the fall of Midular. In the Federation, two, when Fouritain tried to nationalize some of the Gallente industries, and...maybe...when the Intaki refused re-occupation by Gallente forces. I don't count the presidential elections because they've all gone pretty successfully.

The Amarr, of course, are almost as dumped on as the Caldari in this instance, so I suppose I should amend my statement to be "the Caldari have had as much internal conflict as the Gallente and Minmatar combined". Nonetheless, the Amarr have still had fewer stories about it than the Caldari.

The Midular incident was not internal conflict. It was an external political conflict between Fed and Republic, and seemed mostly designed to make the Minmatar look like hot-headed morons who fight like idiots.
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Vikarion

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Re: Dear CCP (revisited)
« Reply #31 on: 01 May 2015, 14:29 »

Vikarion: call me a jaded cynic, but I'm not really interested in the "whose faction is better than who else's" debate. There's another thread here dedicated exclusively to how much the Minmatar have been "the faction of fail" lately, which would mean that three of the four are now horrible by our contemporary standards for one reason or another.

Disingenuous as this might sound, I'm not actually trying to argue for making the Caldari the "best faction". My problem isn't that, say, the Federation has western values which attract some players to them. My problem is consistency.

I've always been told that, in creating a good story, you should "show" rather than "tell". I'm not particularly great at this, perhaps, but then, no one is paying me to write, either. But what CCP tells us, and what CCP shows us, are two different things.

It is almost certainly true that life for a disadvantaged person is far better in the Federation than in the State. In fact, although the State is said to have a reasonable standard of living, its citizens have far less privacy, fewer rights, and more obligations than anyone living in the Federation. There's not a lot of personal freedom. For many people, that's a bad side to the State. And we are both shown this, and told this.

On the other hand, the State is supposed to be, militarily, the most powerful empire (at least according to EvE:Source). It's supposed to be on the cutting edge of military tech, and to have the most advanced weapons and ships, as well as the best-trained naval personnel. But while we are told this, what we have been shown for the past several years is the State being completely incompetent in all areas of military action and strategic thinking. I can list examples, but it's really not hard to go find them, and this post is long enough.

Similar results obtain for the other empires. Their bad sides are given full display. Their good sides...well, we're told about them, but for the most part, the Federation gets portrayed as being even better than what other empires are supposed to have as their "hat".

Which ends up with, yes, the State, Empire, and Republic basically being used as stick figures for the Federation to be better than. I don't see how this is fun. I don't even see how this is fun for Fed RPers. This sort of situation is usually the result of a writer deciding on a rather masturbatory endeavor to produce his or her ideal character (mary sue), but in this case, I'm not sure that it's intentional. I just argue that the current situation is not ideal.

It also detracts from verisimilitude. In real life, countries really do have to have priorities. For example, the U.S. spends a lot more on its military and a lot less on social programs than Denmark (percentage-wise), IIRC. Denmark, on the average, has much happier citizens than the U.S. - but, on the other hand, the U.S. could crush Denmark like a bug if Denmark tried to invade the U.S. Wouldn't it be strange to have a story where Denmark not only had the happy citizens, but also invaded and annexed the east coast of the U.S.? All other things being equal, that story would be unbelievable.

Hopefully that made a little more sense.
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Silas Vitalia

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Re: Dear CCP (revisited)
« Reply #32 on: 01 May 2015, 15:25 »

This isn't bittervetting this is an observation done in a conversational tone, caveat that I'm just discussing without negative intent here:

I think one of the difficult things for the writers is that the more they show and describe about the various factions, the more they can sometimes write themselves into a corner and contradict themselves down the line.  It's a common difficulty when you've got a wide-ranging and sprawling fiction IP.

Every time someone writes a star wars or a star trek book there's someone in the back of the room raising their hand 'no way that would work the romulan warbird type x would actually shoot down three enterprises before it dies' and sure enough they're right according to lore, but then the whole story falls apart.

So I imagine they come up with story ideas they like and try to make them work, and it's likely very hard (nearly impossible) for them not to step on any lore landmines lurking beneath the surface, but hey they've already drawn artwork, made a new dust level, wrote a new chronicle, or a new gameplay mechanic, they can't go back now because 5 lore nerds know it's wrong or maybe sort of ridiculous, does that make sense? 

That's the impression I get at least.  If you RP a caldari and that's all you think about, you are going to do a lot of head shaking for the Caldari Prime event just because you are waist deep in how you've come to think that faction should work.

I think they have to result to 'trickery' and plot mcfuffins sometimes to get around how they've written the factions and how they interact with each other.

Otherwise the Elders don't get past the gates, and the Federation never recaptures the planet, etc.  They've set up some factions to be outright stronger than others in lore, but this doesn't mean they can't lose.  They just seem to maybe lose often in fiction and events in ways that are a bit out of left field maybe?

So maybe when the Federation and the State meet head to head, the State wins more often than not. But if they want the Fed to win x battle they can write around this talking about I don't know, super awesome Federal spy networks getting intel or being sneaky (tm) with some cunning outside of combat plan not involving ship pew pew, I don't know.

The same way that maybe the Amarr have giant scary fleets but the trixie Matari maybe will be willing to go to extremes of suicidal jihadi tactics the Amarr won't contemplate just to prove a point, etc etc.


« Last Edit: 01 May 2015, 15:41 by Silas Vitalia »
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Vikarion

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Re: Dear CCP (revisited)
« Reply #33 on: 01 May 2015, 15:55 »

I get that, Silas. But then, let's put it this way: since TEA, the Federation has fought the forces of every other empire. And hasn't lost a single battle. Indeed, some battles, like Colelie, seem forced, and only created so that the Fed could have another instance of beating the shit out of someone.
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Vikarion

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Re: Dear CCP (revisited)
« Reply #34 on: 01 May 2015, 15:56 »

And by the way, I know that I'm one of those bittervets that I thought I'd never be. Eh, well. But I'm still playing EvE. So, obviously, I don't consider the game a lost cause. I just think it could be done better.
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Lyn Farel

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Re: Dear CCP (revisited)
« Reply #35 on: 01 May 2015, 17:01 »

@Silas : the Defiants storyarc was actually a good example of a bitter fight of asymmetrical warfare between the Amarr and Freedom Fighters.


So. Lore nerd here. Trust me, I read the lore also. Chronicles, novels, Source, news, trawling the Wiki for stuff that's old.

Oooh, I just realized that my statement might have implied that you haven't read the lore, and I really didn't mean that. I'm sorry.  :(

The Caldari are frequently described as fractious and combative, but we see practically none of it played out in game. When was the last time different factions of Caldari were given a reason to have a go at each other? Today, yes, Lai Dai was implicated in the theft of the Seeadler by the Scope. Before that-- Tibus Heth? Honestly, that stopped being divisive about the time I started back up in March of 2013, save with Diana Kim.

That said, I fullheartedly agree that some more Black Eagle stuff/Roden profiteering/Gallente cultural hegemony stuff would be fun-- but they've played on that more recently with the Midular arc. Again, unfortunately old news.

Ah. I think I have a somewhat longer perspective, perhaps. And, remember, my comment was about internal political conflict.

We've had 2-3 arcs with Caldari corporations going after each other, including one with SuVee and Lai Dai blowing up parts of each other's stations. We had two internal rebellions from the Brotherhood of Freedom, we have a few Chronicles, including the Waschi city uprising in the Mordu Chron. We had internal conflict in the State in TEA, in TBL, and then we had the giant Heth arc which was nothing but more and more internal conflict in the State. And now Falcon is promising more upheaval in the State.

For the Minmatar, we've had, I think, one major internal incident: the fall of Midular. In the Federation, two, when Fouritain tried to nationalize some of the Gallente industries, and...maybe...when the Intaki refused re-occupation by Gallente forces. I don't count the presidential elections because they've all gone pretty successfully.

The Amarr, of course, are almost as dumped on as the Caldari in this instance, so I suppose I should amend my statement to be "the Caldari have had as much internal conflict as the Gallente and Minmatar combined". Nonetheless, the Amarr have still had fewer stories about it than the Caldari.

The Midular incident was not internal conflict. It was an external political conflict between Fed and Republic, and seemed mostly designed to make the Minmatar look like hot-headed morons who fight like idiots.

Uh, in the Federation there was several accounts of bitter political intrigue between sociocrats and progressives, between Mentas Blaque and Suro Foiritain... Albeit, that is.. very old. I'm not sure for the rest, but I think i'm missing some.

Ah yes. A lot of conflicts around Intaki and the Syndicate, which is mirrored with issues around the Jin Mei (we have so few info on the Jin Mei !), and also in other empires like with the Achura. Probably still forgetting a few things... The gallente epic arc probably. One of the most creepy and grim pieces of lore I have ever read besides Karsoth, or the Faces we Wear, with child labour/pornography, underground circuses with politics hands in their porckets, minmatar immigrates stomping and murder ordered by black eagle through capsuleer intermediaries (which added to that works and makes them talk ! Speak about grimdark... Torture works !).

For the Amarr, well, in terms of in fighting, they win the day imo. Between the almost civil war between Tetrimon and the TC, Doriam assassination, Heirs infighting for the throne before Jamyl came into power... Ah, that and Khanid being in a cold war with the Amarr for half of the game life. Then you have the usual chronicles either telling about slave uprisings, or that novella with transit workers rebellions all around. Even the Amarr epic arc is like the Caldari one : a lot of political infighting, even if in a different form.

As for the Minmatar, well, we lack of things on the Minmatar lore, but there still was inter tribal infighting as well, and continues to be. Before between Midularists and Shakorites, now between tribes and coming back tribes like Thukkers and Nefantars...

And well, I think that's good. I want to get back to the old cold war that allowed for sub faction conflict. Now that there is a war, and big threats, it's expected from everyone to unite under banners...


Also, on the military incompetence, I can safely say that it's true for all of them. I perfectly see what you are referring to for the Caldari (the CP fiasco, or tidbits like the novice arc with caldari navy fleets being only composed of BSes, which is presented as a flaw... with reason). Well, for the Amarr, speak about incompetence. Vak'Atioth (japanese style, banzaiiii), Kador in Solitude, the Amarr navy response when invaded by the Elder Fleet (it sure isn't like Tripwire), The Amarr navy vs the Defiants and Karishal Muritor... Well that last one actually was a bitter and nice fight, and Vak'Atioth even if showing pure incompetence, also showed an important side of the Amarr misplaced pride in that time. For the Minmatar ? Lol, jumping a few dreads to make a hissy fit at the Federation in Colelie ? And for the Fed ? They were pretty much spineless and apathetic before Roden. Foiritain presented as one of the best presidents in terms of prosperity and times of peace, sure, but militarily ? A disaster. With traitors everywhere (hello, i'm Avent Eturrer and you also know me as Gaius Baltar the turncoat! And hello, my name is Alexander Noir and I like crashing nyxes into station, nine eleven style). The Fed navy was even described as in a state of decay when TEA happened, lacking of funds and especially, enlisted personnel.
« Last Edit: 01 May 2015, 17:14 by Lyn Farel »
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Silas Vitalia

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Re: Dear CCP (revisited)
« Reply #36 on: 01 May 2015, 17:26 »

IIRC from the short story Vak A'tioth was actually inside job by the commanding admiral to leeroy the fleet intentionally to atone for his evil ways?

They might have lost anyway but it wouldn't have been one-sided otherwise.


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Samira Kernher

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Re: Dear CCP (revisited)
« Reply #37 on: 01 May 2015, 17:29 »

IIRC from the short story Vak A'tioth was actually inside job by the commanding admiral to leeroy the fleet intentionally to atone for his evil ways?

They might have lost anyway but it wouldn't have been one-sided otherwise.

Yes, essentially. Jove tech was definitely superior but the big reason the Amarr fleet lost so handedly is because the FC was a spy for the other side. If the war had continued it's likely the Amarr would have done a -lot- better... but the Jove used the Minmatar to distract them.
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Nicoletta Mithra

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Re: Dear CCP (revisited)
« Reply #38 on: 01 May 2015, 19:27 »

Which is why I'm hoping it's an information leak instead of an assassination, so Yonis can begin righteous rebellion.

Yeah, I'll admit that would be far more interesting of a story. The information leak, I mean.

Well, wouldn't that basically boil down to a certain type of assasination as well? I think it would.
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Rin Kaelestria

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Re: Dear CCP (revisited)
« Reply #39 on: 01 May 2015, 23:08 »

Which is why I'm hoping it's an information leak instead of an assassination, so Yonis can begin righteous rebellion.

Yeah, I'll admit that would be far more interesting of a story. The information leak, I mean.

Well, wouldn't that basically boil down to a certain type of assasination as well? I think it would.

When I mean 'assassination', I'm it more in the usual sense. As in, person and/or group attempts to off said person. Character assassination didn't even come to mind, but reality of the situation is this. As much as we don't like the idea of something happening to Jamyl, I think we all knew something would happen eventually that would potentially remove her from the throne. All I'm saying is, since it seems to be the inevitable, I'm hopeful it's written up something better then just "Drifters find Jamyl, lock target, shoot, kill."

But mind you, I don't have a ton of hope there, either.  :P
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Karmilla Strife

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Re: Dear CCP (revisited)
« Reply #40 on: 02 May 2015, 02:30 »

Dear CCP.

Ignore anyone and everyone in this forum and anywhere else. Keep on doing what you want to do. I'm happy with any content, and thankful for any effort.
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Ashley

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Re: Dear CCP (revisited)
« Reply #41 on: 02 May 2015, 06:23 »

Dear CCP.

Ignore anyone and everyone in this forum and anywhere else. Keep on doing what you want to do. I'm happy with any content, and thankful for any effort.
This should be made into T-shirts and send in to Reykjavik to their office.  :P
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Gwen Ikiryo

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Re: Dear CCP (revisited)
« Reply #42 on: 02 May 2015, 06:55 »

Dear CCP.

Ignore anyone and everyone in this forum and anywhere else. Keep on doing what you want to do. I'm happy with any content, and thankful for any effort.

I dunno quite about that.

There's a middle ground between complaining costantly and never saying a thing about developer direction. I've seen writers who believe they can do no wrong produce stuff worse than nothing.
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Vikarion

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Re: Dear CCP (revisited)
« Reply #43 on: 02 May 2015, 09:40 »

Dear CCP.

Ignore anyone and everyone in this forum and anywhere else. Keep on doing what you want to do. I'm happy with any content, and thankful for any effort.

False dichotomy. I don't think anyone here wants CCP to stop producing content. We just have opinions on making that content better.

Authors who get nothing but sycophantic approval from their readers often turn into really horrible writers (looking at your stuff, David Weber).

Similarly, we've seen CCP do some truly unintelligent stuff when they got too high on themselves.

That said, if you want to start a CCP appreciation thread, I won't be shitting on them in it.  :P
« Last Edit: 02 May 2015, 09:43 by Vikarion »
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Silas Vitalia

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Re: Dear CCP (revisited)
« Reply #44 on: 02 May 2015, 12:10 »

Truly a sign of the end times, agreeing with vikarion.   Jeebus help us all.
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