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[Lyn Farel]

[mod]Split from "Slavery in the Fed". Title changed this message incorprated otherwise untouched.[/mod]

Well yeah the same way we could argue that slavery is wide spread in caldari space, where they actually say it's completely forbidden and alien to them... It's a matter of interpretation.

There are slave pens in the Guristas sites.  However, when you have several little bits pointing to a certain theme I think that's CCP trying to say something.   Especially with the epic arcs which I think were meant to give a glimpse of under belly of each of the factions.    They were meant to flesh out the factions.

http://lorebook.eve-inspiracy.com/guides/Gallente_Epic_Arc_guide_by_Jowen_Datloran_v0.9.pdf

That's some  explicit stuff there.   CCP's really putting the child sex slave thing in your face.    Is the message the want to send:

'In a nation the size of the Federation, bad stuff happens and here is one small example'

Or:

Sex slaves, including children, are a huge part of the federations underworld

Yes, that is what I referred to with the gallente epic arc. I would expect to see the same kind of things in other factions as well in the criminal underworld, but it is understandable that CCP is trying here to portray the darker side of the Fed (fuckingly heavy handed), especially since with the rampant liberalism and hedonism the Fed is often about, it only makes more sense... However it goes directly in the way you said about evil mustache twirling vilains : the first bad side that is pointed at with the Federation has always been its rampant hedonism, closely followed by corrupted politics. It's a defining point of the dark sides of the faction, but it's also a huge cliché, the same way that hurrdurr slavery is a cliché of the dark sides of the Amarr Empire. Clichés that most newcomers as you say tend to take at face value into their RP until they start to scrap below the surface and see the more subtle things.

However for the Caldari I wasn't referring to the Guristas. It's true they are Caldari somehow, but to the Caldari they are not (the same way Raata heirs on CP are not). Anyway, I was specifically speaking of the caldari 8 megas and subsidiaries. We have the disassociated that plays the unemployed turnover part of every society (a society without one is absurd). But we don't hear or read much about the lower strates of the caldari society. It heavily reeks at a a pet peeve of mine with CCP writers when it comes to the caldari : they are very hesitant when it comes painting a dark side of that particular faction. Everything that is shown about the Caldari is always painted in a very laudatory fashion (except maybe for the disenfranchised yeah). They are said to have the best or second best standard of living average in New Eden (which I don't dispute), and that most of their employees live good and well off lives. Which I call utter bullshit. We are speaking about a corporate society where the megacorp is your overlord. Do you seriously see a ruthless megacorp somehow cutting on their benefits to feed their salaries fat ? Do you see a megacorp actually setting up a minimal wage because, well, they feel like dealing into social welfare and politics ? So, i'm rambling, but that's where I came with the slavery aspect with the caldari society as well. I'm pretty sure most of their lower worker classes are not better off than the immigrant workers working in Qatari construction sites...

Actually that's the only thing where I would have the most difficulties to put the guilt on the Minmatar. While they are certainly not people and citizens living in wealth and luxury, I really don't see them with a lots of way to get out with slavery-ish kind of indenture. Especially in regards to their tribe-like structure.

[Vikarion]

Lyn Farel, not to put too fine a point on it, but why aren't you playing a Gallente hard-core loyalist?    (EDIT: Bad joke on my part.)

The point of the megacorp-system is that they aren't as efficient as Gallente Megacorps, because they ARE taking care of the least of them.

[Lyn Farel]

That really sounded like hardcore gallente loyalism ? :/

Anyway, yes, i'm trying to find what could be considered grimdark in the caldari faction, because it's er... not really easy to do. The disenfranchised and disassociated ones ? Not really, I bet you can find hobos everywhere.

There was that thread trying to salvage the little good things about the Republic (if they are any). Not the Minmatar (who have plenty), but the Republic. I'm doing the exact opposite with the Caldari, because, you know, if you can quote me at least one or two major grimdark things with the Caldari, I'll be glad to hear it tbh. Imo they have always been the little favorite child of CCP.

I bet they were first imagined as very grimdark by shadowrun-like standards (and yes they were), but over time they have been turned into guys with not many defects, and the grimdark sides of the faction have been erased and eliminated. The shadowrun megacorp feel ? Lost. They wanted to introduce that the megacorps are like family for every caldari and provides everything that they need. And that they live well by that.

I have nothing against the idea behind a society where the megacorp is the state, but they are not going with all that goes with it, actually. And that's where RL political affinities make us disagree. I cannot, just cannot imagine a corporate thing taking care of their "citizens" the way a national state does. You will tell me then, what about google and those innovative companies that actually provide a lot of decent life for their employees ? That's right, but when you will tell me that they do that for all the actual low class employees and half of the guys working for them, i may change my mind. The only example I can see are companies only caring for their shareholders, and that is actually going even worse the more the world is going liberal.

So yes, I have difficulties to imagine a caldari state, corporatist, profit drive world where everyone lives happily besides their hobo class (disassociated).

Ok you can throw me tomatoes because I'm probably like all those (relatively) well off kids that grew up sheltered and start to speak about socialism and the plebs... vOv

Anyway, political considerations aside, I also have an issue with the way it is pictured because it doesn't make any sense to me : let's say that their disassociated individuals are the ones that fell between the cracks, as they say. They say it's almost impossible to get back up again (well, ask any hobo in any society and he will tell you the same anyway so... yeah). So, any society will need a social turnover in employment. So, not counting the disassociated that are out of the loop, where is actually that pool of unemployed people ? I thought caldari citizens that were unemployed were out of the loop to begin with ?

That's what doesn't make sense to me. What happens to Caldari citizens that lose their jobs ? A part of them HAVE to lose their job at some point, since we are speaking about private ventures that can fire you anytime as the market dictates. Yes, I know, the megas probably have a lot of safeguards around that because they care a lot more about their citizens. So what ? It doesn't solve the market issues. It's not like we are speaking about public jobs where you can't be fired, here, is it ? Or is it... ? Caldari society = suddenly communism ?

So, what do the megas do for their unemployed ? I get that some of them will inevitably fall through the cracks, but all of them ? All out of the airlock ? That doesn't make sense. That isn't sustainable.




Now, for the sake of it, let's say everything of this makes sense and it works like that. So... What are the grim sides of the caldari society ?

[Arkon Sarain]

There is one line tucked away in the wiki article Demographics of the Caldari State, which may help somewhat Lyn

"On one end, State citizen-employees are amongst the most emotionally fulfilled individuals in the cluster, but how much of this is a result of corporate indoctrination is unclear. In direct contrast, depression and suicide rates are noticeably higher in Caldari territories than anywhere else..."

[Veiki]

Now, for the sake of it, let's say everything of this makes sense and it works like that. So... What are the grim sides of the caldari society ?

* Lack of individual rights that are not derived from the corporation you are employed by.
* Lack of an independent judiciary within the Caldari State. If the corporation management thinks you're a problem you're likely pretty much fucked - who will you appeal to, the corporate judges who judge in favour of the corporation? Also probably par for the course that whenever there's a change in the CEO or Board a lot of the higher ups associated with those ousted get arrested and slapped with fake charges.
* Deeply rooted homophobia and heteronormative attitudes. You're a woman and not working? Go make babies and sandwhiches For the State, thanks.
* Arranged marriages by the corporation. No marriage for love, only what provides best family KPI.
* Prejudicial attitudes based on racial/ethnic identity. Not Caldari? Not good enough for meritocracy! Good luck climbing that corporate ladder if you're different.
* Highly militarized society (According to Source the Caldari State has a higher ratio of soldier:civilian than North Korea) with a totalitarian bent (Hey that's why they say "For the State")
* Unemployed? No rights for you! Have fun essentially being used as a transient labour force and hope you get some kind of corporate backing or live in the slums or something.

That's what comes to me off the top of my head. The thing is IC, a well indoctrinated Caldari probably sees nothing wrong with such things and would think them normal. In my experience though a lot of Caldari rp'ers get real passive aggressive when these are pointed out OOC and burst the bubble of Randian fantasies.

[Lyn Farel]

Thanks for the answer. It joins a bit what I had in mind actually, but you make it clearer. However..

* Lack of individual rights that are not derived from the corporation you are employed by.

Is that really that grim ? I mean, apparently it's said in PF that the average caldari citizen enjoys everything they need : entertainment to vent of their daily work, good living quarters, access to many services, etc.. That's the thing that pisses me off with the recent PF additions they made about that on the demographics article. It essentially destroys half of the shadowrun trope that made caldari citizens essentially corporate drones.

I mean, what do they actually not have in terms of individual rights ? The right to choose where they live maybe ? That kind of things ? Yeah, probably, I guess.

* Lack of an independent judiciary within the Caldari State. If the corporation management thinks you're a problem you're likely pretty much fucked - who will you appeal to, the corporate judges who judge in favour of the corporation? Also probably par for the course that whenever there's a change in the CEO or Board a lot of the higher ups associated with those ousted get arrested and slapped with fake charges.

That's what I was hinting at above, actually. You make it sound more grim than I did, fortunately, but to some people apparently it's not possible in a corporate fantasy because they hold different views on the thing IRL... T_T

* Deeply rooted homophobia and heteronormative attitudes. You're a woman and not working? Go make babies and sandwhiches For the State, thanks.

Yes, I forgot about that. Thanks for reminding me.

* Arranged marriages by the corporation. No marriage for love, only what provides best family KPI.

Do you have sources on that ? I'm rather curious to know... I know that the society frowns at marriages made between different classes and bloodlines, but otherwise... Is marriage actually directed by the corporation itself and you have no voice in it ? If so, that's interesting because yes, it's very grimdark. It turns people into drones, basically.

* Prejudicial attitudes based on racial/ethnic identity. Not Caldari? Not good enough for meritocracy! Good luck climbing that corporate ladder if you're different.

Yes.. Although, not very a huge dark side of the faction imo. It still remains very meritocratic, except not for foreigners... Who cares about foreigners ? It can be defended either IC or IRL that influx of immigration can be harmful, or beneficial. It's not dark per se.

* Highly militarized society (According to Source the Caldari State has a higher ratio of soldier:civilian than North Korea) with a totalitarian bent (Hey that's why they say "For the State")

Same, I don't really see that as really negative nor positive. Singapore too is highly militarized and essentially a police state, and it's not like DPRK either. Sure thing, police state is a negative aspect in terms of liberties (which gets us back to point 1. above), though...

* Unemployed? No rights for you! Have fun essentially being used as a transient labour force and hope you get some kind of corporate backing or live in the slums or something.

That's what I was hinting at above as well : what difference is there with another faction ? Poor unemployed people fall into the cracks and turn into homeless and desperate poor people... It's the same in the Amarr society. And it's probably the same with gallente and minmatar either, even if they probably have a safety net that caldari and amarr societies lack. Once through the safety net, they are out and pretty much fucked too.

[Arkon Sarain]

* Arranged marriages by the corporation. No marriage for love, only what provides best family KPI.

Do you have sources on that ? I'm rather curious to know... I know that the society frowns at marriages made between different classes and bloodlines, but otherwise... Is marriage actually directed by the corporation itself and you have no voice in it ? If so, that's interesting because yes, it's very grimdark. It turns people into drones, basically.

From the wiki article Demographics of the Caldari State:

"Despite identifying as one collective Caldari unit, inter-marriages between the Deteis and Civire are rare. The corporate-controlled marriage system of the State groups members of opposing genders (and only opposing genders) based on similarities in physical appearance, alongside other considerations such as personality compatibility and socioeconomic standing. Maintaining consistency in physical appearance over the generations is seen as just one of the many necessities in the preservation of the history and tradition of the Caldari people."

[Lyn Farel]

Uh, right. I knew I read that somewhere. You really have to find these bits.

[Veiki]

Lyn,

Grimdark to me is always a matter of perspective. I just highlighted some negative aspects to the Caldari State from what I'd say is a current modern/liberal/western perspective in general.

I guess the only other way I could explain it is that the Megas and the State do tend to fellow a form of utilitarian philosophy (Greater Good and all that). As such I do think if you imagine a bell curve of the State population then those who sit within its median range by doing expected things like joining up in the military, getting married to your assigned partner, having and raising your children and generally just doing your job and not rocking the boat can expect a good quality of life as regards education, health care, and so on. In return for accepting corporate totalitarianism into almost every aspect of their lives, the Caldari State manages to in return create a society in which a very large chunk of the population get to live nice middle-class lives.

The grimdark aspects of the State rear their head if someone exists on the marginal ends of the social bell-curves. To be unemployed, a dissident, an individualist, a homosexual, a different ethnic group and so on is to be the target of prejudice, discrimination, stigma, repression and exploitation by the Megacorps.

Edit: So yes, literally Space Nazis.

[Gwen Ikiryo]

This is the Grimdarkest part of Caldari lore that I'm aware of.

https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Caldari_State#Indigenous_races

Unless they choose to enter a client agreement with a State megacorporation, which very few do, these groups are treated as non-entities and are not accounted for in the system. They have no rights or protections, meaning they are frequently displaced or otherwise removed should a megacorporation require it. As the Caldari code of honor typically only applies to fellow Caldari, these incidents are not regarded as an ethical consideration in the State. The utilitarian outlook of the Caldari megacorporations means that they will not sacrifice majority gain for the rights of an obscure non-Caldari minority.

Because Caldari authorities do not record these groups in any medium, their treatment at the hands of megacorporations is relatively unknown, though Gallente journalists do strive to uncover what occurs in these areas. Atrocity and apathy towards indigenous communities in State territory seem to exist in equal measure, with no clear indication as to which is more frequent.

Basically 1800s colonialism attitudes to foreign cultures.

[Veiki]

This is the Grimdarkest part of Caldari lore that I'm aware of.

https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Caldari_State#Indigenous_races

Unless they choose to enter a client agreement with a State megacorporation, which very few do, these groups are treated as non-entities and are not accounted for in the system. They have no rights or protections, meaning they are frequently displaced or otherwise removed should a megacorporation require it. As the Caldari code of honor typically only applies to fellow Caldari, these incidents are not regarded as an ethical consideration in the State. The utilitarian outlook of the Caldari megacorporations means that they will not sacrifice majority gain for the rights of an obscure non-Caldari minority.

Because Caldari authorities do not record these groups in any medium, their treatment at the hands of megacorporations is relatively unknown, though Gallente journalists do strive to uncover what occurs in these areas. Atrocity and apathy towards indigenous communities in State territory seem to exist in equal measure, with no clear indication as to which is more frequent.

Basically 1800s colonialism attitudes to foreign cultures.

Lies. All lies, quite frankly.

Obviously CCP are all Gallente loyalist roleplayers IRL conspiracy.

[Vikarion]

Lyn, sorry, I sorta meant that more as a joke, which, in my non-tired state, I see has no signifiers as one. You obviously aren't a Gal loyalist. 

I think if you read Eve: Source, the Caldari State comes off as a good bit less grim than Gesakaarin makes out, but he/she does make a lot of the points that I would bring up as "dark side".

Although, as regards the "corporate drone" thing, well, yes. The Caldari used to have a very shadowrunnish feel. And then TonyG, Hilmar, and Falcon decided Space Nazis were better.

[Lyn Farel]

Yeah I suppose that's what was bothering me. Though nazi feel very strong as a descriptor... They might share a few traits, but... They are not yet doing holocausts, genociding people, etc. Fascists, though, sure.

[Pieter Tuulinen]

Don't expect to find massive holocaust genocide machines - you won't find them. It's messy, inefficient and we know what damage it does to your soldiers if you use them up in actions like that.

Do expect to find the creation of an underclass, restrictions on services and privileges (such as healthcare and education) and the encysting of a minority population within a good, healthy, bunch of boisterous Civire proles who will not hesitate to apply boots if stuff is going on that runs contrary to Heiian.

Now imagine the worst excesses of the American policing system and imagine that profiling, unlimited stop, search and seizure, incarceration without recourse to legal representation, unlimited electronic surveillance... Imagine a majority population who honestly believe "You have nothing to fear, so long as you have nothing to hide" and police who behave accordingly.

What you have to do is create a society where there's a pretty decent standard of living, near 100% employment, universal healthcare and a good standard of education and pretty low levels of crime, a generally clean and tidy environment and strong stresses on politeness, deferment to your elders and betters and respect for authority (not just police but doctors, teachers etc).

Sounds like a nice place to live - until you think about what happens to those who rock the boat. All those who want to be different - dress differently, colourful hair, political, religious or artistic expression, gender assignment... Those people get swept under the rug - and the state can sweep pretty hard when it wants to.

I don't think many of us would do terribly well in the Caldari State...

[Vikarion]

Sounds like a nice place to live - until you think about what happens to those who rock the boat. All those who want to be different - dress differently, colourful hair, political, religious or artistic expression, gender assignment... Those people get swept under the rug - and the state can sweep pretty hard when it wants to.

I don't think many of us would do terribly well in the Caldari State...

I would. 

But, keep in mind that there's at least a bit of latitude. According to EvE:Source, people are fairly free to practice their own religion in private, express opinions in private, etc. It's when it's brought into public that the boot comes down. Also, given what we've seen in EvE news about the Caldari court system, you can't just toss people out the airlock or into the brig for no reason, at least not with a good deal of protest from the populace to the megas.

That would go a bit towards reconciling the internal fit the Caldari threw when Heth tried to arrest people for disagreeing with the Provists. If it (the speech) were done in private, than there very well could be a free-speech code he violated, even as the larger society comes down very hard on public speech. In that case, the Caldari could very well think that they have personal freedom, even as other cultures see them as very constrained. To a Caldari, perhaps personal freedom is just that: personal.

Then again, EvE:Source also states that the Caldari usually make little distinction between public and private spheres. Perhaps the distinction is big enough for that, perhaps not.