Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => CCP Public Library => Topic started by: Lyn Farel on 26 Mar 2015, 14:13
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[mod]Split from "Slavery in the Fed". Title changed this message incorprated otherwise untouched.[/mod]
Well yeah the same way we could argue that slavery is wide spread in caldari space, where they actually say it's completely forbidden and alien to them... It's a matter of interpretation.
There are slave pens in the Guristas sites. However, when you have several little bits pointing to a certain theme I think that's CCP trying to say something. Especially with the epic arcs which I think were meant to give a glimpse of under belly of each of the factions. They were meant to flesh out the factions.
http://lorebook.eve-inspiracy.com/guides/Gallente_Epic_Arc_guide_by_Jowen_Datloran_v0.9.pdf
That's some explicit stuff there. CCP's really putting the child sex slave thing in your face. Is the message the want to send:
'In a nation the size of the Federation, bad stuff happens and here is one small example'
Or:
Sex slaves, including children, are a huge part of the federations underworld
Yes, that is what I referred to with the gallente epic arc. I would expect to see the same kind of things in other factions as well in the criminal underworld, but it is understandable that CCP is trying here to portray the darker side of the Fed (fuckingly heavy handed), especially since with the rampant liberalism and hedonism the Fed is often about, it only makes more sense... However it goes directly in the way you said about evil mustache twirling vilains : the first bad side that is pointed at with the Federation has always been its rampant hedonism, closely followed by corrupted politics. It's a defining point of the dark sides of the faction, but it's also a huge cliché, the same way that hurrdurr slavery is a cliché of the dark sides of the Amarr Empire. Clichés that most newcomers as you say tend to take at face value into their RP until they start to scrap below the surface and see the more subtle things.
However for the Caldari I wasn't referring to the Guristas. It's true they are Caldari somehow, but to the Caldari they are not (the same way Raata heirs on CP are not). Anyway, I was specifically speaking of the caldari 8 megas and subsidiaries. We have the disassociated that plays the unemployed turnover part of every society (a society without one is absurd). But we don't hear or read much about the lower strates of the caldari society. It heavily reeks at a a pet peeve of mine with CCP writers when it comes to the caldari : they are very hesitant when it comes painting a dark side of that particular faction. Everything that is shown about the Caldari is always painted in a very laudatory fashion (except maybe for the disenfranchised yeah). They are said to have the best or second best standard of living average in New Eden (which I don't dispute), and that most of their employees live good and well off lives. Which I call utter bullshit. We are speaking about a corporate society where the megacorp is your overlord. Do you seriously see a ruthless megacorp somehow cutting on their benefits to feed their salaries fat ? Do you see a megacorp actually setting up a minimal wage because, well, they feel like dealing into social welfare and politics ? So, i'm rambling, but that's where I came with the slavery aspect with the caldari society as well. I'm pretty sure most of their lower worker classes are not better off than the immigrant workers working in Qatari construction sites...
Actually that's the only thing where I would have the most difficulties to put the guilt on the Minmatar. While they are certainly not people and citizens living in wealth and luxury, I really don't see them with a lots of way to get out with slavery-ish kind of indenture. Especially in regards to their tribe-like structure.
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Lyn Farel, not to put too fine a point on it, but why aren't you playing a Gallente hard-core loyalist? :P (EDIT: Bad joke on my part.)
The point of the megacorp-system is that they aren't as efficient as Gallente Megacorps, because they ARE taking care of the least of them.
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That really sounded like hardcore gallente loyalism ? :/
Anyway, yes, i'm trying to find what could be considered grimdark in the caldari faction, because it's er... not really easy to do. The disenfranchised and disassociated ones ? Not really, I bet you can find hobos everywhere.
There was that thread trying to salvage the little good things about the Republic (if they are any). Not the Minmatar (who have plenty), but the Republic. I'm doing the exact opposite with the Caldari, because, you know, if you can quote me at least one or two major grimdark things with the Caldari, I'll be glad to hear it tbh. Imo they have always been the little favorite child of CCP.
I bet they were first imagined as very grimdark by shadowrun-like standards (and yes they were), but over time they have been turned into guys with not many defects, and the grimdark sides of the faction have been erased and eliminated. The shadowrun megacorp feel ? Lost. They wanted to introduce that the megacorps are like family for every caldari and provides everything that they need. And that they live well by that.
I have nothing against the idea behind a society where the megacorp is the state, but they are not going with all that goes with it, actually. And that's where RL political affinities make us disagree. I cannot, just cannot imagine a corporate thing taking care of their "citizens" the way a national state does. You will tell me then, what about google and those innovative companies that actually provide a lot of decent life for their employees ? That's right, but when you will tell me that they do that for all the actual low class employees and half of the guys working for them, i may change my mind. The only example I can see are companies only caring for their shareholders, and that is actually going even worse the more the world is going liberal.
So yes, I have difficulties to imagine a caldari state, corporatist, profit drive world where everyone lives happily besides their hobo class (disassociated).
Ok you can throw me tomatoes because I'm probably like all those (relatively) well off kids that grew up sheltered and start to speak about socialism and the plebs... vOv
Anyway, political considerations aside, I also have an issue with the way it is pictured because it doesn't make any sense to me : let's say that their disassociated individuals are the ones that fell between the cracks, as they say. They say it's almost impossible to get back up again (well, ask any hobo in any society and he will tell you the same anyway so... yeah). So, any society will need a social turnover in employment. So, not counting the disassociated that are out of the loop, where is actually that pool of unemployed people ? I thought caldari citizens that were unemployed were out of the loop to begin with ?
That's what doesn't make sense to me. What happens to Caldari citizens that lose their jobs ? A part of them HAVE to lose their job at some point, since we are speaking about private ventures that can fire you anytime as the market dictates. Yes, I know, the megas probably have a lot of safeguards around that because they care a lot more about their citizens. So what ? It doesn't solve the market issues. It's not like we are speaking about public jobs where you can't be fired, here, is it ? Or is it... ? Caldari society = suddenly communism ?
So, what do the megas do for their unemployed ? I get that some of them will inevitably fall through the cracks, but all of them ? All out of the airlock ? That doesn't make sense. That isn't sustainable.
Now, for the sake of it, let's say everything of this makes sense and it works like that. So... What are the grim sides of the caldari society ?
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There is one line tucked away in the wiki article Demographics of the Caldari State, which may help somewhat Lyn :)
"On one end, State citizen-employees are amongst the most emotionally fulfilled individuals in the cluster, but how much of this is a result of corporate indoctrination is unclear. In direct contrast, depression and suicide rates are noticeably higher in Caldari territories than anywhere else..."
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Now, for the sake of it, let's say everything of this makes sense and it works like that. So... What are the grim sides of the caldari society ?
* Lack of individual rights that are not derived from the corporation you are employed by.
* Lack of an independent judiciary within the Caldari State. If the corporation management thinks you're a problem you're likely pretty much fucked - who will you appeal to, the corporate judges who judge in favour of the corporation? Also probably par for the course that whenever there's a change in the CEO or Board a lot of the higher ups associated with those ousted get arrested and slapped with fake charges.
* Deeply rooted homophobia and heteronormative attitudes. You're a woman and not working? Go make babies and sandwhiches For the State, thanks.
* Arranged marriages by the corporation. No marriage for love, only what provides best family KPI.
* Prejudicial attitudes based on racial/ethnic identity. Not Caldari? Not good enough for meritocracy! Good luck climbing that corporate ladder if you're different.
* Highly militarized society (According to Source the Caldari State has a higher ratio of soldier:civilian than North Korea) with a totalitarian bent (Hey that's why they say "For the State")
* Unemployed? No rights for you! Have fun essentially being used as a transient labour force and hope you get some kind of corporate backing or live in the slums or something.
That's what comes to me off the top of my head. The thing is IC, a well indoctrinated Caldari probably sees nothing wrong with such things and would think them normal. In my experience though a lot of Caldari rp'ers get real passive aggressive when these are pointed out OOC and burst the bubble of Randian fantasies.
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Thanks for the answer. It joins a bit what I had in mind actually, but you make it clearer. However..
* Lack of individual rights that are not derived from the corporation you are employed by.
Is that really that grim ? I mean, apparently it's said in PF that the average caldari citizen enjoys everything they need : entertainment to vent of their daily work, good living quarters, access to many services, etc.. That's the thing that pisses me off with the recent PF additions they made about that on the demographics article. It essentially destroys half of the shadowrun trope that made caldari citizens essentially corporate drones.
I mean, what do they actually not have in terms of individual rights ? The right to choose where they live maybe ? That kind of things ? Yeah, probably, I guess.
* Lack of an independent judiciary within the Caldari State. If the corporation management thinks you're a problem you're likely pretty much fucked - who will you appeal to, the corporate judges who judge in favour of the corporation? Also probably par for the course that whenever there's a change in the CEO or Board a lot of the higher ups associated with those ousted get arrested and slapped with fake charges.
That's what I was hinting at above, actually. You make it sound more grim than I did, fortunately, but to some people apparently it's not possible in a corporate fantasy because they hold different views on the thing IRL... T_T
* Deeply rooted homophobia and heteronormative attitudes. You're a woman and not working? Go make babies and sandwhiches For the State, thanks.
Yes, I forgot about that. Thanks for reminding me.
* Arranged marriages by the corporation. No marriage for love, only what provides best family KPI.
Do you have sources on that ? I'm rather curious to know... I know that the society frowns at marriages made between different classes and bloodlines, but otherwise... Is marriage actually directed by the corporation itself and you have no voice in it ? If so, that's interesting because yes, it's very grimdark. It turns people into drones, basically.
* Prejudicial attitudes based on racial/ethnic identity. Not Caldari? Not good enough for meritocracy! Good luck climbing that corporate ladder if you're different.
Yes.. Although, not very a huge dark side of the faction imo. It still remains very meritocratic, except not for foreigners... Who cares about foreigners ? It can be defended either IC or IRL that influx of immigration can be harmful, or beneficial. It's not dark per se.
* Highly militarized society (According to Source the Caldari State has a higher ratio of soldier:civilian than North Korea) with a totalitarian bent (Hey that's why they say "For the State")
Same, I don't really see that as really negative nor positive. Singapore too is highly militarized and essentially a police state, and it's not like DPRK either. Sure thing, police state is a negative aspect in terms of liberties (which gets us back to point 1. above), though...
* Unemployed? No rights for you! Have fun essentially being used as a transient labour force and hope you get some kind of corporate backing or live in the slums or something.
That's what I was hinting at above as well : what difference is there with another faction ? Poor unemployed people fall into the cracks and turn into homeless and desperate poor people... It's the same in the Amarr society. And it's probably the same with gallente and minmatar either, even if they probably have a safety net that caldari and amarr societies lack. Once through the safety net, they are out and pretty much fucked too.
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* Arranged marriages by the corporation. No marriage for love, only what provides best family KPI.
Do you have sources on that ? I'm rather curious to know... I know that the society frowns at marriages made between different classes and bloodlines, but otherwise... Is marriage actually directed by the corporation itself and you have no voice in it ? If so, that's interesting because yes, it's very grimdark. It turns people into drones, basically.
From the wiki article Demographics of the Caldari State (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Caldari_State):
"Despite identifying as one collective Caldari unit, inter-marriages between the Deteis and Civire are rare. The corporate-controlled marriage system of the State groups members of opposing genders (and only opposing genders) based on similarities in physical appearance, alongside other considerations such as personality compatibility and socioeconomic standing. Maintaining consistency in physical appearance over the generations is seen as just one of the many necessities in the preservation of the history and tradition of the Caldari people."
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Uh, right. I knew I read that somewhere. You really have to find these bits.
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Lyn,
Grimdark to me is always a matter of perspective. I just highlighted some negative aspects to the Caldari State from what I'd say is a current modern/liberal/western perspective in general.
I guess the only other way I could explain it is that the Megas and the State do tend to fellow a form of utilitarian philosophy (Greater Good and all that). As such I do think if you imagine a bell curve of the State population then those who sit within its median range by doing expected things like joining up in the military, getting married to your assigned partner, having and raising your children and generally just doing your job and not rocking the boat can expect a good quality of life as regards education, health care, and so on. In return for accepting corporate totalitarianism into almost every aspect of their lives, the Caldari State manages to in return create a society in which a very large chunk of the population get to live nice middle-class lives.
The grimdark aspects of the State rear their head if someone exists on the marginal ends of the social bell-curves. To be unemployed, a dissident, an individualist, a homosexual, a different ethnic group and so on is to be the target of prejudice, discrimination, stigma, repression and exploitation by the Megacorps.
Edit: So yes, literally Space Nazis.
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This is the Grimdarkest part of Caldari lore that I'm aware of.
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Caldari_State#Indigenous_races
Unless they choose to enter a client agreement with a State megacorporation, which very few do, these groups are treated as non-entities and are not accounted for in the system. They have no rights or protections, meaning they are frequently displaced or otherwise removed should a megacorporation require it. As the Caldari code of honor typically only applies to fellow Caldari, these incidents are not regarded as an ethical consideration in the State. The utilitarian outlook of the Caldari megacorporations means that they will not sacrifice majority gain for the rights of an obscure non-Caldari minority.
Because Caldari authorities do not record these groups in any medium, their treatment at the hands of megacorporations is relatively unknown, though Gallente journalists do strive to uncover what occurs in these areas. Atrocity and apathy towards indigenous communities in State territory seem to exist in equal measure, with no clear indication as to which is more frequent.
Basically 1800s colonialism attitudes to foreign cultures.
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This is the Grimdarkest part of Caldari lore that I'm aware of.
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Caldari_State#Indigenous_races
Unless they choose to enter a client agreement with a State megacorporation, which very few do, these groups are treated as non-entities and are not accounted for in the system. They have no rights or protections, meaning they are frequently displaced or otherwise removed should a megacorporation require it. As the Caldari code of honor typically only applies to fellow Caldari, these incidents are not regarded as an ethical consideration in the State. The utilitarian outlook of the Caldari megacorporations means that they will not sacrifice majority gain for the rights of an obscure non-Caldari minority.
Because Caldari authorities do not record these groups in any medium, their treatment at the hands of megacorporations is relatively unknown, though Gallente journalists do strive to uncover what occurs in these areas. Atrocity and apathy towards indigenous communities in State territory seem to exist in equal measure, with no clear indication as to which is more frequent.
Basically 1800s colonialism attitudes to foreign cultures.
Lies. All lies, quite frankly.
Obviously CCP are all Gallente loyalist roleplayers IRL conspiracy.
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Lyn, sorry, I sorta meant that more as a joke, which, in my non-tired state, I see has no signifiers as one. You obviously aren't a Gal loyalist. :P
I think if you read Eve: Source, the Caldari State comes off as a good bit less grim than Gesakaarin makes out, but he/she does make a lot of the points that I would bring up as "dark side".
Although, as regards the "corporate drone" thing, well, yes. The Caldari used to have a very shadowrunnish feel. And then TonyG, Hilmar, and Falcon decided Space Nazis were better.
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Yeah I suppose that's what was bothering me. Though nazi feel very strong as a descriptor... They might share a few traits, but... They are not yet doing holocausts, genociding people, etc. Fascists, though, sure.
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Don't expect to find massive holocaust genocide machines - you won't find them. It's messy, inefficient and we know what damage it does to your soldiers if you use them up in actions like that.
Do expect to find the creation of an underclass, restrictions on services and privileges (such as healthcare and education) and the encysting of a minority population within a good, healthy, bunch of boisterous Civire proles who will not hesitate to apply boots if stuff is going on that runs contrary to Heiian.
Now imagine the worst excesses of the American policing system and imagine that profiling, unlimited stop, search and seizure, incarceration without recourse to legal representation, unlimited electronic surveillance... Imagine a majority population who honestly believe "You have nothing to fear, so long as you have nothing to hide" and police who behave accordingly.
What you have to do is create a society where there's a pretty decent standard of living, near 100% employment, universal healthcare and a good standard of education and pretty low levels of crime, a generally clean and tidy environment and strong stresses on politeness, deferment to your elders and betters and respect for authority (not just police but doctors, teachers etc).
Sounds like a nice place to live - until you think about what happens to those who rock the boat. All those who want to be different - dress differently, colourful hair, political, religious or artistic expression, gender assignment... Those people get swept under the rug - and the state can sweep pretty hard when it wants to.
I don't think many of us would do terribly well in the Caldari State...
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Sounds like a nice place to live - until you think about what happens to those who rock the boat. All those who want to be different - dress differently, colourful hair, political, religious or artistic expression, gender assignment... Those people get swept under the rug - and the state can sweep pretty hard when it wants to.
I don't think many of us would do terribly well in the Caldari State...
I would. :P
But, keep in mind that there's at least a bit of latitude. According to EvE:Source, people are fairly free to practice their own religion in private, express opinions in private, etc. It's when it's brought into public that the boot comes down. Also, given what we've seen in EvE news about the Caldari court system, you can't just toss people out the airlock or into the brig for no reason, at least not with a good deal of protest from the populace to the megas.
That would go a bit towards reconciling the internal fit the Caldari threw when Heth tried to arrest people for disagreeing with the Provists. If it (the speech) were done in private, than there very well could be a free-speech code he violated, even as the larger society comes down very hard on public speech. In that case, the Caldari could very well think that they have personal freedom, even as other cultures see them as very constrained. To a Caldari, perhaps personal freedom is just that: personal.
Then again, EvE:Source also states that the Caldari usually make little distinction between public and private spheres. Perhaps the distinction is big enough for that, perhaps not.
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Don't expect to find massive holocaust genocide machines - you won't find them. It's messy, inefficient and we know what damage it does to your soldiers if you use them up in actions like that.
Do expect to find the creation of an underclass, restrictions on services and privileges (such as healthcare and education) and the encysting of a minority population within a good, healthy, bunch of boisterous Civire proles who will not hesitate to apply boots if stuff is going on that runs contrary to Heiian.
Now imagine the worst excesses of the American policing system and imagine that profiling, unlimited stop, search and seizure, incarceration without recourse to legal representation, unlimited electronic surveillance... Imagine a majority population who honestly believe "You have nothing to fear, so long as you have nothing to hide" and police who behave accordingly.
What you have to do is create a society where there's a pretty decent standard of living, near 100% employment, universal healthcare and a good standard of education and pretty low levels of crime, a generally clean and tidy environment and strong stresses on politeness, deferment to your elders and betters and respect for authority (not just police but doctors, teachers etc).
Sounds like a nice place to live - until you think about what happens to those who rock the boat. All those who want to be different - dress differently, colourful hair, political, religious or artistic expression, gender assignment... Those people get swept under the rug - and the state can sweep pretty hard when it wants to.
I don't think many of us would do terribly well in the Caldari State...
And that is supposed to be grimdark/dystopian ? :eek:
Compared to the other factions, or what the State was before TEA in the lore, it's kinda nothing imo... There is even laudable traits in it, depending on the point of view.
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And that is supposed to be grimdark/dystopian ?
EvE isn't presented as a grimdark or dystopian future. It's gritty, with strong flavors of gothic and cyberpunk elements, but it isn't grimdark. Even the Amarr Empire has a lot of bright elements.
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Believe me, i'm the first one to cringe when CCP goes overboard with too much grimdark for the sake of grimdark.
What Pieter presented looks to me like a gray objective overview of what the faction is on an everyday basis. It's really interesting and can be done for most factions.
I was more interested in the really grimdark points of the faction though. Veik gave me a good handful of hints that I hadn't considered. I still feel that compared to the ugly things you can find in other factions, it's not much, but well. It's already something.
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Oh, wow. To me, the downsides I mentioned seem horrible. :)
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It's also slightly inaccurate. Colorful haircuts are allowed, as are varying fashion choices. The State is not totally completely monochrome in culture.
There are dingy clubs and rock stars, there are tattoos and outlaw gangs, there are fetishes and mohawks. There's colorful drinks, nasty drugs, loan sharks, and more than your fair share of five dollar hookers prowling the back alleys where Corporate Security dare not wander.
The key that sets the State apart from the Federation is that none of this is glorified. It's all a tightly controlled, constantly oppressed, and painstakingly secretive subculture of the State. There's always an underworld, and the State definitely has one.
For every underworld, there's always bits of it that sometimes appear in every day life - like that young tattooed girl with the pink mohawk that just walked out of a Corporate Bank.
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Oh, wow. To me, the downsides I mentioned seem horrible. :)
No, you are right, it doesn't seem pleasant but... I mean, compared to child pornography, slavery, mass genocides, scarification, mass terrorism...
That's why i'm kinda meh everytime I see CCP going further away from the corporate drone dystopian trope that fitted very well to the faction in the past...
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To me, it's long looked (especially in light of the Demographics article) like the Caldari have a lot of fascistic tendencies, but, crucially, rarely quite get there.
Mostly, it's a matter of degree. Where fascist societies crack down, Caldari take a more nuanced approach. Dissidents are tolerated, grumpily. Governance is authoritarian, yet the multi-corporate format makes it surprisingly decentralized and diverse (and both maintains and protects dissenting enclaves). Outsiders are only really unwelcome if they bring those weird foreign ways with them. And so on.
The State also occasionally finds itself in a shooting war with its own bona-fide fascist elements, IE, the Templis Dragonaurs. Hence, the closest it's come to true fascism has been its recent time under Space Hitler Tibus Heth, a Dragonaur.
But even Heth's regime didn't get to the point of actually crushing dissent, and the State had started turning back from the brink even before a certain Titan refused to fire on Caldari Prime.
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I still feel that compared to the ugly things you can find in other factions, it's not much, but well. It's already something.
I have to admit, I'm a bit surprised about this, since from my point of view, the Caldari are the third-most reviled faction by players and CCP, after the Amarr and Sanshas. And the bad sides of the Caldari are on constant display, from news articles to EvE:Source to dev comments, whereas the bad side of the Federation is only evident if one does quite extensive digging, or, to paraphrase one Gallente loyalist on this board, "in mission descriptions written in 2009 by an intern".
As well, TonyG's books and EvE:Source are basically a long, continuous, and sycophantic hymn of praise for the Federation. An example: EvE:Source (in the Gallente section) states that declining participation in local elections is probably due to people being so happy that they don't want to change anything. The only real problem they are stated to have is that some of their citizens go overboard in their hedonism and engage in criminal acts.
Given this, suggesting that the Caldari are the most glorified and least-badly-portrayed faction comes across to me as more than a little bizarre, although I fully accept that this a very subjective matter.
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You are right Vikarion in that for new players, the Caldari and the Amarr look like the evil ones, while Gallente and Minmatar the good ones. But i'm speaking with the view of someone that has many years of Eve lore behind, and am trying to find a single, terribly wrong/dark point to make about the Caldari, and can't find one. For the 3 other ones, it's rather easy.
Amarr -> Slavery
Gallente -> All kind of excesses, every part of their underground actually, their legal side is clean, their underground is incredibly disturbing
Minmatar -> Mass terrorism and Voluval/mutilations
Caldari -> Was the corporate drones before, but half of it seems to have gone away... I hear all your points and those made by others as well in this thread, but this is hard to put them on the same level of atrocity imo
And TonyG, well, lol.
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Well, it's not like the Caldari don't have an underground either. Where do the Guristas come from, after all?
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I think the thing I've noticed most is that a lot of loyalist roleplayers have a tendency to point out how CCP hates their faction and wants to make it shit for a variety of reasons while portraying the opposing sides as better.
Roleplayers do love to complain a lot I think.
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You seriously think that's what I am doing right now ?
Well, it's not like the Caldari don't have an underground either. Where do the Guristas come from, after all?
The Guristas are a pirate faction. Every empire has spawned at least one of them.
Maybe though I am seeing too much into the "recent" disgruntling additions they added to the gallente while they are doing the opposite for the caldari. Especially since before TEA, the gallente were pretty white imo. Not TonyG white, but pretty white, except for the Luc Duvaller slippery.
Maybe the caldari are on the same foot as the gallente when it comes to that now ? Definitely not on the scale of the Amarr or the Minmatar though.
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So...
Formerly the player of Malcolm Khross, who probably white-knighted the Caldari more than most people during his time before retirement.
The Caldari definitely have some dark parts to them.
I'm not pointing the finger of blame at anyone, but you really have to look past the players who have generally lifted the Caldari up on a pedestal. The Caldari have the largest representation among capsuleers, the largets pool of RPers and account for most of the RP that goes on on the forums. This makes for a very biased output of pro-Caldari RP and whitewashing compared to the other factions.
Believe me though, it's there. You have to read between the lines to see it. Look at the things the Caldari laud and praise in their history and you'll find that other factions would be put off by them. For example, the Caldari laud Admiral Tovil-Toba's crashing of a titan into a planet as a heroic sacrifice in honor of his people, most other cultures would see this as a military massacre of non-militant, civilian lives. A massacre that the Caldari praise with a unified voice.
The totalitarian nature of the Caldari is also something they praise, their focus on family and community is a point of their culture that the Caldari proudly proclaim. To an outsider, the complete dissolution of the individual identity and the cultural expectation to sacrifice self for the "good of the many" is oppression and mental conditioning of the worst variety - even the Amarr don't expect their citizens to sacrifice their individual identity. In the Caldari culture, a person's entire livelihood is literally dictated by their corporate identity.
Their meritocratic society looks great on paper but it easily dissolves into nepotism. The fact that your advancement in Caldari society depends upon your deeds being noticed and your merit awarded means you are quite literally at the mercy of your superiors who are under, at best, cultural pressure to recognize your achievements and advance you accordingly.
The list goes on, but they dark elements are definitely there. You just have to look in the shadows.
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the Caldari laud Admiral Tovil-Toba's crashing of a titan into a planet as a heroic sacrifice in honor of his people
This may have changed, but If I recall it was a converted 'water freighter' and capital sized freighters didn't exist then. Before capital sized freighters, the term 'freighter' was interchangeable with 'industrial.'
I'm not even sure anything bigger than a current day battleship existed back then even though you some times come across the term 'carrier' referring to drone ships and ships that would have launched sub-light single man fighters that I imagine wouldn't be much larger than a modern large drone.
Also, I don't think he's lauded for killing Gallente, but for giving up his life to save the Caldari race from what was perceived as a serious threat of extinction.
Further, the topic is Slavery in the State.
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So...
Formerly the player of Malcolm Khross, who probably white-knighted the Caldari more than most people during his time before retirement.
The Caldari definitely have some dark parts to them.
I'm not pointing the finger of blame at anyone, but you really have to look past the players who have generally lifted the Caldari up on a pedestal. The Caldari have the largest representation among capsuleers, the largets pool of RPers and account for most of the RP that goes on on the forums. This makes for a very biased output of pro-Caldari RP and whitewashing compared to the other factions.
Believe me though, it's there. You have to read between the lines to see it. Look at the things the Caldari laud and praise in their history and you'll find that other factions would be put off by them. For example, the Caldari laud Admiral Tovil-Toba's crashing of a titan into a planet as a heroic sacrifice in honor of his people, most other cultures would see this as a military massacre of non-militant, civilian lives. A massacre that the Caldari praise with a unified voice.
The totalitarian nature of the Caldari is also something they praise, their focus on family and community is a point of their culture that the Caldari proudly proclaim. To an outsider, the complete dissolution of the individual identity and the cultural expectation to sacrifice self for the "good of the many" is oppression and mental conditioning of the worst variety - even the Amarr don't expect their citizens to sacrifice their individual identity. In the Caldari culture, a person's entire livelihood is literally dictated by their corporate identity.
Their meritocratic society looks great on paper but it easily dissolves into nepotism. The fact that your advancement in Caldari society depends upon your deeds being noticed and your merit awarded means you are quite literally at the mercy of your superiors who are under, at best, cultural pressure to recognize your achievements and advance you accordingly.
The list goes on, but they dark elements are definitely there. You just have to look in the shadows.
You probably also remember that we made OOC turn a bit sour between both of us was exactly that I kept pointing as the caldari flaws and vouched for a more nuanced faction, so I definitely saw those dark parts. That's I did it especially because for the Caldari faction, there has always been the group of RPers "before TEA", and the group of RPers "after TEA", which are 2 completely different entities, even today (albeit a lot less). So, actually, i'm definitely not judging the caldari on the image given by caldari white knights past TEA since I was the first one to fight against that image, which alienated most of the caldari community of the time.
Before TEA, it was as I said : corporate drones, inter megacorp inner fighting and cloak and daggers, police state, etc. What pissed off so many Caldari RPers past TEA was exactly that : the loss of that Caldari identity in favour of Dragonaur identity (yeah something that the caldari can't be blamed for either : Nouvelle Rouvenor was of course, not of their doing, but dragaunors...). Then now, CCP tackled the issue and fixed the Dragonaur/nazi issue, to get back to the roots... But not totally. That's why I find it a lot more difficult to find those grimdark sides.
So all in all, with all your answers, yes, I probably tended to minimize a lot of them, but they are... smaller. Minor, in comparison of the atrocities found especially in the Minmatar and the Amarr (what made me say above why the Gallente and the Caldari are... a lot subtler as factions). I think it is rather hard those days to find especially atrocious sides to the Caldari, but you can however add up a lot of minor things like individual liberties, homophobia, being a cog in the machine (albeit a lot less than in pre-TEA PF, which saddens me), and also the point Gwen brought up about the Caldari way of dealing with natives and minorities.
But, for the topic at hand though (even if I did not really intended it as such), yeah, slavery in the state is harder to argue than it was before (since before most caldari were just as I said, corporate drones/cogs). Though it still can be fortunately.
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Also, I don't think he's lauded for killing Gallente, but for giving up his life to save the Caldari race from what was perceived as a serious threat of extinction.
Further, the topic is Slavery in the State.
You are correct, it was not a titan, it was simply a larger ship. Thanks for the clarification.
Also, I know why the Caldari praise him but I was demonstrating that what the Caldari see as a heroic sacrifice can be seen by outsiders as a military massacre of civilian life (which is true).
Further, the topic may be called "slavery in the State" but you'll notice the conversation is and has been about the general "darker" parts of the State, so I was quite clearly staying on topic.
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OOC turned sour between us for different reasons Lyn, but I think we've since put them aside.
I think we largely just had trouble communicating with one another more than anything.
I certainly don't have anything against you.
I know this post is off topic, but I felt I needed to clarify that.
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They did ? Oh well, I never had anything against you especially. I liked Malcolm, and I liked you OOCly as well. You are amicable and nice with people. So well... I thought the clash came from my... indelicacies in pushing even further the disagreement with the caldari clique like an ass. vOv
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since before most caldari were just as I said, corporate drones/cogs
I missed something; what changed to indicate that most Caldari are not corporate wage-slaves?
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I would have to parse the Caldari demographics again, but it's hinted everywhere that their lives suddenly became the second highest to the highest standard in the cluster, that they enjoyed a lot of freedom as long as it remained into the limits imposed by their corporation, and that basically turned in my eyes the Caldari megas into social loving entities.
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It is a system that is extremely good to/for people that want to be part of the machine and terribly bad to/for people who do not want to be part of it and as such wouldn't work equally well - or at all - for different societies.
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So as long as you want to play the game (which doesn't seem so hard now to tell the truth), everything will be extremely good for you ? See, that's what annoys me.
Edit : I think i'm seeing too much into it.
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It is very possible to be a wage/salary-slave and have a good life. Actually, it is having a "good life" which creates the wage/salary slavery. A person's willingness to pursue change (even if for the better) comes with unknown risks and that will disrupt the "good life."
This of course does not answer the question of what is dark-part. But perhaps that is just it.
The Caldari State's dark side is the incredibly overt corporate-fascism.
The Doctrine of Fascism states, "The Fascist conception of the State is all-embracing; outside of it no human or spiritual values can exist, much less have value. Thus understood, Fascism is totalitarian, and the Fascist State—a synthesis and a unit inclusive of all values—interprets, develops, and potentiates the whole life of a people."
I suppose that can be approached however as "fine," so long as it does not include attempts at genocide.
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I have always thought the Fascist concept where the State itself replaces spiritual concepts such as God/s and an afterlife as a source of immortality applied well to the Caldari mindset. Do your part for the greater good, your family and your corporation through service to the State, and in doing so ensure the continued existence of the State and your labours for it.
Then again it could also just be the end result of someone's anime collection.
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Frankly, at this point, given that CCP and Falcon have basically been making the Federation out (event-wise) to be The Best At Everything, I don't really know why we need to worry about the negative points of the other factions.
I mean, if the Minmatar take on the Fed, they get stomped. If an Amarr Holder takes on the Fed? Stomped. Operation Highlander? The Caldari get stomped, even if the only way to guarantee it is CCP re-spawning waves of dreadnoughts. If the Fed loses the militia war? No problem, they win anyway via a great new president, news articles, and screwing over suddenly stupid Caldari megas. Oh, wait, the Fed militia just took all systems? Well, they win again, because they exercised a scorched-earth policy when withdrawing.
Hell, in the Dust arena, the Caldari players beat the Gallente. Didn't matter. CCP rewrote it so that the Gallente won the battle of Caldari Prime on the ground as well, completely (EvE Source).
At this point, trying to find dark spots for the Caldari seems pointless. Why bother? We have one faction that is True and Good, and beats everyone else via plot armor. , so forget nuance. We have a space opera now. Might as well conform.
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Frankly, at this point, given that CCP and Falcon have basically been making the Federation out (event-wise) to be The Best At Everything, I don't really know why we need to worry about the negative points of the other factions.
I mean, if the Minmatar take on the Fed, they get stomped. If an Amarr Holder takes on the Fed? Stomped. Operation Highlander? The Caldari get stomped, even if the only way to guarantee it is CCP re-spawning waves of dreadnoughts. If the Fed loses the militia war? No problem, they win anyway via a great new president, news articles, and screwing over suddenly stupid Caldari megas. Oh, wait, the Fed militia just took all systems? Well, they win again, because they exercised a scorched-earth policy when withdrawing.
Hell, in the Dust arena, the Caldari players beat the Gallente. Didn't matter. CCP rewrote it so that the Gallente won the battle of Caldari Prime on the ground as well, completely (EvE Source).
At this point, trying to find dark spots for the Caldari seems pointless. Why bother? We have one faction that is True and Good, and beats everyone else via plot armor. , so forget nuance. We have a space opera now. Might as well conform.
Having written the backstory for a major computer game I can certainly concur that it's hard work - but I can also concur that it is a lot more doable than CCP make it look.
They seem, internally, to be quite happy with the Status Quo at the moment when it comes to things not in Null space and, perhaps, that makes it hard for them to fundamentally change things (or to create the illusion that they are doing so). They also seem to be unable to decide whether they're doing Realpolitik or Grimdark. I'm not sure why - since most of their playerbase probably doesn't care about the lore to that extent, but it's where most of their lore problems stem.
Hmmm... Actually, I think Grimdark and mistaken application of it is probably their BIG problem. I'm going to write a topic specifically about Eve's use of Grimdark and why it's causing problems tomorrow.
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Hmmm... Actually, I think Grimdark and mistaken application of it is probably their BIG problem. I'm going to write a topic specifically about Eve's use of Grimdark and why it's causing problems tomorrow.
I look forward to it. Should be interesting.
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I almost forgot that event wise, the gallente suddenly tended to start winning at everything... It's weird though, because before all of that the Fed was probably the most sluggish and spineless faction, taking blow after blow and still smiling with several teeth less. While it was a time when the Amarr were most of the time depicted as goofy idiotic bigots, the Gallente had an issue of actually losing at everything.
I still remember people complaining about it when the Caldari were always depicted as winning everything cluster wise. Especially after TEA events, where the gallente failing at everything became even more obvious not only after the loss of CP, but traitors, corrupted idiots, etc. And still failing at acting.
I suppose CCP eventually got to the point were they did the exact opposite, making kador suicide attack Solitude (is that a thing with CCP and stupid military moves ? Do the gallente look so stupid that all factions suddenly lose their mind and suicide fleets against them ?), then elected Roden, and made the giant in the Fed awaken and stomp everything.
Then now we are at a point where event wise the Fed are ruling everyone else, and lore wise, the Caldari are... well. I mean, you say it yourself on the IGS, the State is the strongest in terms of military, economy, and you forgot about technology too. So, what are they not the strongest at lol ? And then people wonder why I say that some people and CCP seem to have a fetish issue when it comes to the Caldari... ? :/
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Lyn, in terms of tech and economy, the picture is somewhat nuanced in EvE:Source. The Caldari have the most efficient economy, I should have said, but the Federation and the Amarr have larger ones. Tech-wise, the Caldari have better industrial and military tech, while the Gallente have better "consumer" tech.
If you read the old news articles, which is increasingly hard to do, the Gallente were not losing everything. That was the Amarr. In fact, I can only remember two major setbacks for them before TEA, one being the theft of a Titan, and the other when they lost a convoy attempting to infiltrate a Caldari station in Kassigainen...and the second was caused by players. And the Caldari were never winning "everything" - in fact, there were quite a few news articles where they were portrayed rather badly, like the whole Brotherhood of Freedom series of incidents or the "protein delicacies" incident. In the past, Gallente and Caldari portrayals were fairly balanced between some good and some bad. But the portrayal we have now is so imbalanced that any other faction winning anything looks strange after a while, because all we are shown is the aquamarines winning everything.
That's not to say that I think it would be a good idea for the Caldari and Amarr to get their time in the sun and to toss the Gallente out in the cold. I just think that it's a bad idea to have one society that is a utopia, wins all the battles, and whose only real problems are that other societies around it just aren't as great as it is.
Or, to put it in a more humorous way, the writing for the Gallente Federation in, say, EvE:Source, TEA, and other works seemed the literary equivalent of a man staring lovingly into a mirror as he jerks himself off. :P
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In a weird way, TEA and Eve: Source treat the Federation in completely opposite ways. In TEA, the Federation loses constantly, but it's pretty obvious the writer (bless you, tonyg) projects modern western society on them wholesale and considers them the lone bastion of civilization in a chaotic universe in spite of this. Meanwhile, in Eve: Source, the Federation is portrayed as a lot more powerful, but it also makes it out to be be kinda bad. See the Chronicle they have in the Fed section which is basically about how Gallente culture is shallow compared to Caldari.
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Lyn, in terms of tech and economy, the picture is somewhat nuanced in EvE:Source. The Caldari have the most efficient economy, I should have said, but the Federation and the Amarr have larger ones. Tech-wise, the Caldari have better industrial and military tech, while the Gallente have better "consumer" tech.
If you read the old news articles, which is increasingly hard to do, the Gallente were not losing everything. That was the Amarr. In fact, I can only remember two major setbacks for them before TEA, one being the theft of a Titan, and the other when they lost a convoy attempting to infiltrate a Caldari station in Kassigainen...and the second was caused by players. And the Caldari were never winning "everything" - in fact, there were quite a few news articles where they were portrayed rather badly, like the whole Brotherhood of Freedom series of incidents or the "protein delicacies" incident. In the past, Gallente and Caldari portrayals were fairly balanced between some good and some bad. But the portrayal we have now is so imbalanced that any other faction winning anything looks strange after a while, because all we are shown is the aquamarines winning everything.
That's not to say that I think it would be a good idea for the Caldari and Amarr to get their time in the sun and to toss the Gallente out in the cold. I just think that it's a bad idea to have one society that is a utopia, wins all the battles, and whose only real problems are that other societies around it just aren't as great as it is.
Or, to put it in a more humorous way, the writing for the Gallente Federation in, say, EvE:Source, TEA, and other works seemed the literary equivalent of a man staring lovingly into a mirror as he jerks himself off. :P
Well yes, the Amarr were a desperate cause back then...
But saying that the gallente is an utopia... I find the faction a lot dirtier and grimier than the caldari one, as depicted as of now (which was much more nuance in the past). And yes, i'm not counting TonyG in the process, just the wiki lore and what I gather of source lore...
I also agree with your statement on tech, economy and military actually. It's just that your OOC note on the IGS was really not that, for a moment I thought source really stated what you said on the IGS...
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I also agree with your statement on tech, economy and military actually. It's just that your OOC note on the IGS was really not that, for a moment I thought source really stated what you said on the IGS...
Well, Vikarion wasn't lying on the IGS. EvE:Source is a little weird on it. The Amarr, for example, are said to have the largest economy. The Caldari are said to have a strong economy, being the most efficient, the most productive, and strongest in R&D. Then you go over to the Gallente section and their economy is the best at providing consumer goods, tourism, commercial industry, and probably distribution. As for how they are doing right now, the Caldari are apparently experiencing a boom after Heth being deposed, the Gallente are not growing as fast as under Fouritain, with Roden funneling the economy into the military side, and the Republic is prospering. The Caldari are said to have the flat-out strongest military, however, and the best military tech.
To the wider point about the portrayal of the factions, I think that reading only some of the sources of lore will tend to create a different picture than the one you might have if you read them all.
Gwen, while I agree that the EvE:Source Chronicle is going for that, I also think that "our culture has so much opportunity and variety that it's hard to focus on one thing" is, as far as negative points go, pretty meh. It's like saying that grocery stores are bad because they have too many varieties of cereal.
And then you have the unending song of the hippie-hallelujah chorus in praise of the Gallente throughout practically the rest of their section, not including the mentions in other sections. Like how life in the Federation is "described as utopian". Like how personal freedom is guaranteed on all planets, and if you don't like how one is run, you can just move. Like how Gallente art and culture reaches heights so sophisticated that the philistines in the rest of the cluster are incapable of grasping some of it. There's wonderful religious harmony, with churches lined up side by side (I'd love to know how they manage this, BTW) with priests and ministers of different faiths chatting happily after services (seriously, I'm not kidding, page 72).
The big danger for the Gallente? Well, their "shining greatness" could be endangered by the malaise of low voter turn-out. Another quote: "Some believe this is an unavoidable side effect of the Federation's greatness; if everyone is happy, they don't feel the need to speak up and make changes." Oh, and vice, whatever that is. I suppose if one thinks that body modification, or experimentation with non-harmful drugs (The Federation bans harmful ones), or gambling is just horrible, then you have that.
Oh, darn. How terrible.
Of course, then they went and made gambling one of the favorite past-times of the Caldari, so if you're going on vice as a down-side, well, looks like the Federation wins again.
The poor get health care and government aid for their kids, schooling is free (apparently even college) and private schools abound, and anyone can experiment to find the best career and lifestyle. The Gallente are also the strongest cultural force in the cluster, and, oh, I almost forgot, also have the best intelligence agency and personnel in the cluster.
And that's just from EvE:Source.
But you know what? Fine. I think the above is a Mary Sue-ish country, and thus a problem. But let CCP have their little idealized Europe-in-space. The bigger frustration is that CCP won't even let the other nations in the cluster be good at the things that they are supposed to be good at.
The Amarr Empire? Supposed to be a bastion of stability, order, and tradition? How many leaders has it had in the past ten years? Four? And one was a Blood Raider, who was followed by Princess Jamyl The Cheating Nut-Queen. Oh, and whereas the Caldari could only take Caldari Prime with the help of a top Gallente on the inside, the Amarr are apparently just that incompetent when it comes to defending their own territory, from the Minmatar, from the Gallente, or from pretty much anyone else. Or invading anyone else's - thanks, Uriam Kador. One wonders how they've lasted 2 years, much less a millennium or two.
The Republic? Well, the Republic has become the paranoid-schizophrenic step-child of the Federation. When it's not spending long periods of time doing nothing or losing territory to the Angels, it's going full-out psycho and trying to invade the Federation (and getting utterly stomped, of course, because we can't have the Federation losing anything). Hardly seems like the sort of thing that one would expect from a system that's supposed to put the wisest and most careful at the top, but hey, I guess them's the breaks. Honestly, the Republic doesn't even get to do anything cool, because apparently any time someone has the idea for a cool thing, it goes to the Federation.
The State? Well, the State's supposed to be the hard-ass on the block. The State is supposed to be militarily strong, efficient, hard-working, and smart. Sure, not always so concerned with niceties like human rights or personal liberty, but there you go. So obviously the correct thing to do is have them getting the shit beaten out of them every time they go up against anyone, from the Sansha to the Federation. Hell, they couldn't even conduct a surprise invasion without taking massive losses, threatening genocide, and needed both the Broker and the top Gallente Admiral helping them. Oh, and despite their "strong economy", be suffering from worker riots, need giant loans from the Amarr, and have half a dozen news stories every couple years talking about how bad X megacorporation is doing.
So the big problem is the portrayal, the "show me" of the story, rather than the footnotes to it. We can argue all day about who has the best back-story on EvElopedia. But when it comes to events, to news stories, etc, well, no one gets to be better than the Federation. At anything.
And that's boring.
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The more I hear about Source, the less it makes me want to read it... :ugh:
Although I think you are purposefully entirely bypassing everything bad that has been presented not in eve Source, but in the wiki as well as every other lore material on the gallente... Their grim sides are incredibly grim and abject (some rivalizing with the amarrian breeding facilities or Karsoth personal vices), while their façade is indeed the perfect showcase of an utopian world... Which is just eventually the mystifying sugarcoat.
Compared to that, the Caldari are a lot milder, but I can agree that they also lack a lot of those awesome utopian facets. Maybe they are more uniform as a whole. Less grim, but also less utopia...
I kind of agree with your depiction of the Amarr, but again, while they have indeed been a total disaster before TEA, past that they have increasingly started to change because CCP maybe got aware that added to being the obvious evil doers (at first glance !) with all that slavery thing and all, they were also completely and utterly incompetent as you say. And even if they had with the Gallente in the first years of the game, the best leaders of New Eden (Heideran / Aidonis), they started to show a side that I quite like with that actually : they are ironically the most aggressive minded faction, ready to Reclaim, and yet, they are probably the ones that have almost never broken any treaty, play by the rules, prove to be the most diplomatic and patient of all on the intergalactic scene. That's one of the few good sides they have that I like. At least now, they feel a lot less incompetent in the recent years. I mean, aside from their past buffoonery (which has ceased now), they still hold from the lore the best ground troops of the cluster, they were most of the time in advance in technological races , and that not only for the confessor, but for duster tech, etc.
As for the caldari, I don't know... I guess I don't see it that way.
Note : also, on free college, I am not sure that's really an argument, it's (almost) free where I live too... Except if you go for a private school ofc. I mean, it's not that much an incredible thing...
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...aside from their past buffoonery (which has ceased now)...
Well, if you read EVE: Source, I think you will see that that's not at all the case. Source made them more religious nutjobs than they were before.
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Superb Eve Source criticism
Everybody but Federation are fucking idiots.
Screw faction loyalties.
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...aside from their past buffoonery (which has ceased now)...
Well, if you read EVE: Source, I think you will see that that's not at all the case. Source made them more religious nutjobs than they were before.
nuuu :(
Well at least they can't murder any further the Ammatar, right ?
Right... ? :ugh: