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[Havohej]

Where are we?

Where do we want to be?

How do we get there?

No shitposting.  If you haven't got something useful or genuine to say about the state of the boards, which I'm almost certain can be done without naming names or pointing fingers, don't say anything at all.

[Esna Pitoojee]

Question: Is there interest in working more closely with CCP to help raise attention towards Backstage, lorestuffs, and RP in general?

For instance, would we be interested in taking part in the SSO program?

I think it would be beneficial, but I'm not on the mod team and I can understand if they were iffy about putting in the time to do this (let alone to handle the inevitable trolling that would come with increased attention).

[Havohej]

Dunno what SSO is.  But... working with CCP?  Lorestuffs?  Is that even possible?

[Morwen Lagann]

SSO in this case means that you would, effectively, log into backstage through your EVE account* or something like that, if I remember right. Similar to those API-based logins that some alliances and corps use. I believe it would require a fair amount of work on the admins' part to get it working, though. Likely not worth it - we'd be better off using one of the API systems if we wanted to go that route.

We had a featured community site devblog a while back, fwiw. We didn't have any bad things come out of that. Generally, when CCP does stuff that pushes attention to the RP community, we tend to gain a number of members, but we've never had a corresponding increase in what I suppose we're all just calling trolls or shitposters.


* Edit - to clarify, you log in via your EVE account, and backstage should recognize that you have done so. However, Backstage should not, iirc, ever know your account details. You're basically pointing at CCP's account login page to do this. I think.

[Louella Dougans]

Where are we?

Where do we want to be?

How do we get there?

1. Dire. Look at the age of the threads that are still on the front page in several sections. Corporation development, some threads are from 2013. Eve OOC Summit is hardly any better. Activity has fallen off a lot. Look at the statistics. http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=259.msg1702#msg1702 does not apply anymore.

2. More activity, less negativity.

3. Separation of OOC/The Summit moderation from Backstage - Some people have expressed the opinion that having the same people as moderators on backstage and ingame is unhealthy. Maybe vOv. Afaik, there's 4 people who have that role - one is Graelyn who is a special circumstance, on account of being the owner of the Summit, but afaik only has moderator roles in the tiny subforum specifically about The Summit.

Remove postcounts - they only really help create the perceptions of cliques.

Clean up old sticky threads - remove sticky if it's all out of date, replace as necessary.

[Esna Pitoojee]

Dunno what SSO is.  But... working with CCP?  Lorestuffs?  Is that even possible?

Morwen discusses SSO above, but in general I was referring to working more closely with raising awareness as well as just posting the URL around a bit in other EVE forums to try and bring people over.

[Havohej]

3. Separation of OOC/The Summit moderation from Backstage - Some people have expressed the opinion that having the same people as moderators on backstage and ingame is unhealthy. Maybe vOv. Afaik, there's 4 people who have that role - one is Graelyn who is a special circumstance, on account of being the owner of the Summit, but afaik only has moderator roles in the tiny subforum specifically about The Summit.

I know MorLag is a Summit mod.  Other than that, I don't know of any of the team (besides Graelyn) who are also mods here.  I could be wrong.  I have no bloody idea who are Summit mods (aside from Kat, MorLag and Ava, but I get the impression they are legion).

Remove postcounts - they only really help create the perceptions of cliques.

I don't see it.  Why do you think so?

Clean up old sticky threads - remove sticky if it's all out of date, replace as necessary.

I can see the merit on this suggestion...  it just feels wrong to obliterate them altogether.  I'd rather see someone take upon themselves to make an updated version, call our attention to it (a Report of the post will do this more quickly than waiting for us to just stumble upon it - at least, that's true of me, anyway) and we'll sticky the updated version and unsticky the outdated version.  There's been a couple of times where someone in an ambitious mood declares intent to update one of the stickies, then life happens.

Morwen discusses SSO above, but in general I was referring to working more closely with raising awareness as well as just posting the URL around a bit in other EVE forums to try and bring people over.

Ah, I see.  I can't see where that would be a net negative - it's just a matter of folks taking it upon themselves to promote the fact that Backstage is a thing to people who might enjoy it but are unaware of it.

[Utsukushi Shi]

So I should say I actually like the forum from a technical perspective. It is a good format, I like the moderation actually in most cases. My only issue is that the negativity flooding so many threads makes it hard to feel like this community is worth engaging in. Why bother to post a thread detailing my personal fiction if it will be either ignored or become yet another proxy battleground for some argument I don't even care about. It's pretty much the IGS at this point just with better mods.

Now I get it, I have used the internet before and am far from a wilting violet. The difference however is between a year ago when Aria puts out a thread on Achur history and we have a lively discussion on how we see that fiction and now, where virtually every thread for months with any discussion is "Why I don't play EVE #3746725....".

So why don't you post some threads and revitalize instead of complaining? Asks imaginary person I am arguing with. Because if you read Backstage every day, as I do, and virtually every single thread is either an OOG topic(and seriously fuck reading any of those threads...) or the aformentioned "I hate EVE thread" populated by pretty much the same 10 or so people why bother? Who are you really talking to? There are some awesome, fascinating and interesting people in the RP community but Backstage no longer feels like the way to communicate with them in large part.

What's the answer? Not really sure tbh. Maybe this is the doom of Internet communities of all stripes. They reach an age and then they start to die, choking with bored vets who have seen it all. You certainly see a similar malaise in EVE itself. I tried a plea to the old players a while ago to come back and use their great powers for good but that did not seem to work out sadly. In the end I really am not sure what can be done, especially in a medium where certain types of comments are expressly forbidden (and largely with good reason). Perhaps more or different moderation? I find it hard to see what changes of that sort could be made for the better though. Maybe if some of the older players just actually stopped complaining and either left or really attempted to assist those of us younger players who still care.

Is it all doom and gloom? No, I still read it every day and occasionally see something interesting. There are some people using the forum for what I percieve it's original purpose was, you know, talking about RP in EVE. I recently decided to kick myself in the ass and just post some stuff I have been working on and damn the man. But when yet another thread turns to the topic of "why I don't log in" remember this discussion and just catacomb that shit immediately.

[Katrina Oniseki]

I really like Utsu's post. I also have bandaids all over my fingertips from several unfortunate IKEA accidents, so it's hard to type right now.

+1 Utsuuuuu

[Shiori]

(balls, wrong thread.)

[Ché Biko]

Where are we?
Backstage
Where do we want to be?
On stage
How do we get there?
Log into EVE and RP.

I guess I'm guilty of bringing some gloom to this forum, but considering that this is the forum where (former) EVE roleplayers speak their minds, it's no surprise to me that the forum shows how a part of that community feels and how active they are. In that sense, I'd say the forum works as intended.
And I still feel like this is the best forum I was ever a member of, thanks to the rules and moderation.

I think that nothing drastic needs to be done, and that things will improve by themselves. Of course we could help speed things along by being more constructive, creative and positive and stuff like that, and updating stuff rarely hurts.

[Louella Dougans]

Remove postcounts - they only really help create the perceptions of cliques.

I don't see it.  Why do you think so?

post count, like a karma score, and the like counters, are a single-axis measurement, which does not provide a useful measure.

Example: Someone that only posts on the IGS on Eve-O forums, has a handful of likes, vs. someone that posts in that "like and get likes" thread on EVE-o forums. They appear in the same thread on IGS, and first impression would be the person with more likes might have a more useful opinion.

Another example is karma scores. +1 rep for an insightful post, +1 rep for a helpful post, +1 rep for a funny post, these are not the same things, it's possible to make posts that get +rep for being funny, but are entirely unhelpful for the thread in question.

So, onto post counts, we have a discussion about something. Someone with a high post count says "I disagree with your interpretation of PF", the person they're talking to has a lower post count, but almost all of those posts have been in the background forum, while the person with high post count posts mainly in OOG. To someone unfamiliar with either individual, the tendency is to assume the person with higher post count knows what they're talking about.

The general assumption by most people, is that posters with high post counts, rep scores or numbers of likes, are good posters who fit well with the community. This isn't always true.

And when someone with high post count breaks a rule, and does not get punished for it, then it creates an impression of favouritism and cliques.

[Synthia]

CCP appear to have decided to put much of the future lore (in the form of EVE Source and other such things) effectively behind a paywall - you have to buy the books to discuss the content, more or less. CCP takes a dim view of people reproducing the copyrighted content online, for good reason, and this stifles any and all discussion of the lore in those publications.

Unlike the Evelopedia articles and chronicles, which anyone, even those not without an active subscription, can look at, and discuss, the material in EVE Source is not freely and readily available.

I can't really discuss the effect that CTCS has had on Sani Sabik RP, as evidenced in EVE Source, with people who don't have it. I can't say "look, at how the efforts of a tiny RP corporation have been incorporated into PF! You could do this too!", because the evidence of this is copyrighted and has to be purchased.

This Stifles Discussion.

[Vincent Pryce]

How about we'd start not with how to gain attention and popularity in the eyes of CCP and the general populace. If the product is broken at best, what's the point of trying to sell it?

Issue seems to be three-fold.

1. Culture of overt political correctness.
2. Pointless Bittervetting.
3. Ignoring the problem rather than deal with it, as is prevalent already in this post.




In my opinion, we need to tweak the rules away from this pussyfooting wankfest of pampering. If someone is doing it wrong, let people voice their opinions provided that they give a well formed argument on the topic of why they feel this is so. Now you spend half your post trying to dance around bad rules to make a point to someone and even then there's a danger of getting the Catacombs if someone feels snowflake's feelings have been hurt. If your feelings are hurt from a well formed argument, then I suggest you take either door number one with 'Harden The Fuck Up' or door number two with 'Fuck Off'. If you feel it's your 15€ a month and you get to do as you want instead of trying to play nice with others, then do it, fuck off and stop bitching when people won't play ball with you. Roleplaying is a joint venture, community is a joint venture. Fresh ideas are welcome, but repeating bad cliches is not. People don't have easy time distinguishing unless you can go and say to them 'no, don't do that, it doesn't work and here's why'. What to some newer blood might seem an edgy cool choice can be worn-out droll to the ten year old community.



Pointless Bittervetting, this should be moderated way more than doing it wrong. I am the first to admit that I have been and occasionally am guilty of this, but nothing kills new enthusiasm more than this. If your last time logging in is six months ago don't tell us EVE is dying or it's shit for this or that reason. You are unsubbed, let that be a testament of your disapproval instead of countless shitposts of 'bad game yo'. We don't really give two shits about it, some of us are having fun for their first time, some still after many years and some, like me, have found that joy once more in playing EVE Online.



As has already been demonstrated in this thread people like to stick their heads in the sand and discuss pointless trivialities besides the elephant in the room, the same elephant that gave the initial spark to this thread. Which is that, by the looks of it, quite a few people agree with me and are not happy with the way things are - starting at the core of it all, the code of conduct and rules. I already voiced my opinion on this matter in the first paragraph of my post. The rules were guidelines, but now they've become somewhat of an abomination. The flipside of Chatsubo's lawless anarchy, we have total anal retentive political correctness and rules lawyering. That kills the spark equally hard as the flamewars of old. I also think it's time for a bit of mod recycling in order to rehash the spirit and rules of these forums. Some people have been burdened with the job since the inceptions of these forums. I dare also to suggest that some of them have gotten their own bitterness and distinct bias brought on by it, whether they care to admit it to themselves or not. I'm not finger pointing, I'm just saying this shit is purely human nature. I am not even sure some of the original mods even play the game anymore. Those who've stuck with it, I commend you it's thankless job but it might be time to hand the gavel to someone else.



When it comes to moderation I would also like to address the topic of The Catacombs. I find them... Pointless. In many occasions a weapon that immortalizes a flat out flame, insult and graphic content without the chance of retort or explanation. I have not so subtly made use of this very fact quite often, and I think many either quietly accept this or do not recognize that. Those posts will always be there, grinding, creating tension and poisoning the community. I could understand moving whole locked threads there, but individual snipes not so much. If an individual post is simply so offending that it needs to be ganked, then gank it, do not leave it hanging around. It's like going in the shitter and then not flushing the turd.



As a lesser note; There is also some dickwaving going on about their RP street cred everynow and then. Understand that it's ok to be proud of your achievements and immortalization into the game world, but after a while telling about them to everyone all the time gets trite and old. As a result people will find it - and you - annoying in the end. You are not the only one, and you will certainly be the last one to live on in Prime Fiction. While we commend you for your efforts please stop rubbing it in everyone's face in every goddamn discussion. Have a glass of humility.



tl;dr: Stop being entitled bitter twats and release the choke-hold grip on forum rules.

MA is best Pony.

[Silver Night]

In no particular order:

While I think most of your critique probably is more suggestive of a bad fit between your particular style and this forum, Vince, I would tend to agree that bittervetting is a problem. There, see what you've done: put it into our heads to introduce more rules. Also, overall amount of moderation is (drastically) down - due in part no doubt to declining activity, but probably in larger part due to declining moderator participation.

In terms of political correctness, I'm not sure what you mean - though I can see two possibilities (which might be incorrect):

1) In the non-eve section, we tend to lock down certain types of threads after a bit of run time. This is because this isn't really a forum for that kind of thing, and certain RL topics tend to just lead to arguments and trolling.

2) The whole point of setting Backstage up in the first place, which boiled down to essentially the idea that you can have a healthy debate or conversation with someone without dragging out insults and suggestions that they just need to 'HTFU' and otherwise belittling other users or derailing threads down into flames rather than having constructive interactions. In this case, you are confusing 'political correctness' (which rings the alarm-bells of nanny-statedom (to be fair a description Backstage might qualify for were it a state)) with politeness which is a tool that civil societies use to function and which online communities can use to have reasonable conversations.

As far as the Catacombs, the problem there is that while they are not an ideal solution, it would be worse if we just disappeared posts and threads, because then there would be no examples of what not to do, and no evidence of what we had actually done (so people could claim we were selectively modding them or what have you, when the real reason for moderation is that they were being a massive tool).

Also, decrying bittervetting while simultaneously suggesting that new people who try things you've seen before need to 'fuck off and stop bitching' if they won't listen to your (or, tbh, my) learned advice is a novel approach. Who amongst us hasn't dabbled in dark eyeliner and cannibalism in our younger days? And, as you said - and as I've very frequently said - RP is self correcting in that if people are being jackasses, noone will RP with them. Guess what: We don't need to change the rules so that everyone can announce that to them here. It happens by itself.

Anyway, the vast majority of your problems with Backstage have a simple solution: revive Chatsubo. Last I checked it was still up. It has - so far as I can tell - the exact ruleset you are looking for. The trouble seems to come when most people (though I suspect you wouldn't be one of them) really mean 'I don't want so much moderation of things I agree with' rather than a real 'I don't want so much moderation'.

I know it is very frustrating seeing people doing RP wrong and not being able to just tell them 'No, you're doing it wrong'. However, if you actually read the FAQ, there are some useful suggestion about how to point them in the right direction without veering into problematic territory. Whether you want to make that effort is, of course, up to you. As is the question of if you feel that effort is a useful way to spend your time.