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Author Topic: Abolish blasphemy laws  (Read 18380 times)

Silas Vitalia

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Re: Abolish blasphemy laws
« Reply #90 on: 23 Jun 2014, 13:04 »

There's a good movie that explains the unfortunate interplay between state power, politics, religion, and the priests on the ground called "The Mission". Human history.. is complicated.

You are right, it is indeed.  It's never so black and white of course, and as Ser Jorah says there's good and evil on both sides of every war that's ever been fought :P
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Lyn Farel

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Re: Abolish blasphemy laws
« Reply #91 on: 23 Jun 2014, 13:05 »

Well yes, though, I am definitely not sure how Christian kill Native American ? Wasn't it not more a matter of expansionism, land grabbing, and more importantly, railroad companies ? Was religion really involved in native american history ?

The Spaniards went full Amarr on the indigenous peoples of the Americas, killing millions, raping and pillaging, and utterly destroying their societies.  The priests gave them a pass as God's will, and blank cheques to murder any who would not convert.

Sorry I thought you only spoke of amerindians, not mesoamericans.   :)

Indeed, in the case of those was one of the greatest genocides of all History, around 15M Incans dead in less than 50 years, and I have not even bothered to check for central America.

However, as much as missionaries raged and were all the fuss in those times, are we sure that they were the ones actually dictating to kill the natives and make them work to death in ore mines ? Or was it more greed and just a nation pillaging the resources of the new world ? I am not sure that religious institutions called for that. They just closed their eyes and converted the few natives the spaniards didn't kill.

The answer is pretty obvious in that case to me. Church was a lot less barbaric than secular power generally.
« Last Edit: 23 Jun 2014, 13:07 by Lyn Farel »
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Silas Vitalia

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Re: Abolish blasphemy laws
« Reply #92 on: 23 Jun 2014, 13:23 »

The answer is pretty obvious in that case to me. Church was a lot less barbaric than secular power generally.

One in the same.  All authority and power came from the church, or by church consent.

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Publius Valerius

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Re: Abolish blasphemy laws
« Reply #93 on: 23 Jun 2014, 13:34 »

To me it seems many argue we should not bother to fix X issue because many that are affected by X issue have Y issue to deal with too. Completely besides the point, but we will see, perhaps I am missing something.

See my Rawls fan (by the way thats what I meant in the Caladri thread about Rawls fanboys and others hitting each other with a stick). You Sir dont get my point, in a world with limited resources I have to choose. I repeat "I", and you have to "missionary" me for your goal (and throughfully you have failed). Secondly "to choose". Which mean we live in a world with opportunity cost, where 1 dollar spent on one thing means that I cant spend it on another. I hope this isnt to hard to understand or? Because right now... are You bloodbird and Silas "doing a mithra". Not reading or understand points, and only answer to does which they like.

In a world with limited reassures, I have to chose carefully and I HAVE DO A ORDINAL LIST OF PROBLEMS. Or in other words I have to rang problems.... and this whole thread is the definition of "first world problem". I could now stop and enter here the meme about the "skeptic third world kid" (the little black boy), which say: (upper row) "Your ordinal list of problems are blasphemy laws? (lower row) And this is how you try to help me?"  You see the narcissism? Its like the US soldier which babble in Mogadishu in the nighties (to lazy to search for the youtube vid): "Iam here to bring you freedom." I think the amount of freedom was/and still not the problem (publius is to lazy to add the freedom-house index). I think, freedom was and still is the least of the problems there, and shouldnt be ordinal the first goal. The whole thing gets even more obscure and narcistic if we image that those people live in more freedom then us. As they live in the state of nature *publius enters trollface*

So to shorten the debate.... You dont need to explain (what I had quote above)... or wait "explain" in quotas. Because truthfully you (Bloodbird) and Silas dont undertsand science and/or positivism (as well as Mithra). You have to explain, why ordinal "your problem" is "the problem" for those people in jeopardy. If you cant do it, yeah then you dont do science or even give a explanation. (thats why I add the quotas) you just voice a opinion, and does are like asshole... everyone has one.


When thousands of scientists start murdering civilians, women, and children over who can calculate PI further, or has the more accurate climate models, I'll start rethinking my 'faith.'

In the mean time I'll keep watching and reading the history of Sunni kill Shia, Hindu kill Muslim, Jew kill Muslim, Protestant kill Catholic, Protestant kill Wiccan, Catholic kill scientists (burning alive, very classy), Catholic kill Jew, Christian kill Native American.. Are we seeing a pattern?

No. Enlighten me. And please dont forget to us a deduction and nice little syllogism (and as I said before if some cant do this... he should may close a certain hole to not harm more.*trollface*).




Overall I really dont like where this thread is going in the last pages.... Lying... Like the stable orbit around the atomic nucleus in closed paths wouldnt be explain in mathematics induction (Bohr), as well as there is causality of violence (all other people this time without Mithras). Tip for the future: The black box dont care whats inside, it only acts. In other words, a world with or without religion would act on/in violence or anarchy the same. POINT. Until this day I never heard any model which really could open the black box***, and/or could give me a good explanation on causality of violence (this time explanation without quotas).


___________
*** In ecomics and political science: Black Box: aus dem Behaviorismus stammender, in die Wirtschaftswissenschaften übernommener Begriff, der besagt, dass man zwar die Bedingungen und die Resultate menschlicher Handlungen messen kann, aber an die dazwischenliegenden Vorgänge der Entscheidungsfindung mit empirischen Mitteln nicht herankommt.

In englisch: Which means in short: I cant say something about the inside, but something how it acts. Why it acts how it does I dont know (and throughfully I dont care)...


I can say "I dont care", because  of as Friedman explained in positive economics (a eassy which I linked here in this forum already... where I tried to explain his tree example) you dont need to explain everything (uncertainty doesnt falsfy science. Looks at the shithead Jean Baudrillard) as long you can give predictions, as well as your model explains logical and deductive whats happening. That I cant explain everything isnt bad... And here is my fundamental problem with scientism (ultra radical positivism), science doesnt need to explain everything. As I said before (to lazy to search), science doesnt need to explain transcendence. It doesnt need to explain everything (after life) nor it has to reason everything (black box).

Publius closes his rant and leaves this thread forever. :D
« Last Edit: 23 Jun 2014, 13:56 by Publius Valerius »
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Nicoletta Mithra

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Re: Abolish blasphemy laws
« Reply #94 on: 23 Jun 2014, 14:36 »

Actually, it was mostly clergy who spoke out against the treatment of meso- and southamerican natives by the encomienda system. One of the main figures there was Bartolomé de las Casas.

Also, I am really astonished what is considered to be science, here. A guy knocking flints against one another until he figures out how to make fire is apparently already a scientist, even though he has no sophisticated notion of hypothesis formation, logic, theories, universal laws of nature, statistics, peer-review, ordering knowledge into a systematic body, hindsight bias, scientific controls, distinction of main- and auxiliary hyposthesis etc. pp. nor were they really interested in scientific explanations.

And it's not so different for mechanics nowaday. I talked to a car mechanic just today and he assured me that he isn't really interested in attaining universalized knowledge that fits into a system of knowledge when fixing a car, but in fixing a car. Yes, he will use the insights of science and materials and tools that we wouldn't have without science, but that makes him as little of a scientist as using an i-pod makes me - or anyone else - a quantum physicist.

Similarly, people in antiquity had central heating, the creatans had warm and cold water pipes in their towns and heated their houses through them in the winter geothermally. Egyptians made tooth implants from hippo teeth around a thousand years before christ, long before anything resembling the idea of science emerged within greek philosophy. We know from the old papyri that their explanations weren't scientific either, nor were they even naturalistic in character.

While there's little mystery to making fire for us, for him it prolly was quite a magical process, too. Even until today smith in indigenous people that developed metal working have a magical, priestly quality as masters of fire and formers of metals. Their explanations why something works are really, really unscientific, but nonetheless they are quite successful in their craft and as well in propagating it.

Science is not simply trying things until something works, but it has to do with dscovering universal laws, build theories and complexes of theories that form scientific disciplines. Saying that it is a simple trial and error process of a 'hypothesis-test-loop' tuntil there's success is oversimplifying what science is and consist in to a degree that hurts and is denigrating of the people who do the hard and intellectually challanging work of an actual scientist.

Lastly, @ Silas, you vastly overstate how bad the conditions were for people back then and how much the supposed increase in living conditions are due to science. First, that is quite dependent on the exact time and region you speak about  - and it is the same today, for example the Arabian Emirates have a much higher - much higher - living standard of it's citizens than, say, the US, even though they are ruled by Emirs that declared Islam to be the state religion, free spread of religion is quite restrictet and you can call the country a muslim country by all rights.

Also, as I pointed out things like tooth implants, seperated warm- and coldwater pipes, use of geothermal energy, and many others were known quite early in the history of humankind, when the prevailing system of thought was a mythic one and how it was possible to have all these things was explained by mythical stories, which also were used to preserve said knowledge.

And even the prejudice of the 'dark' medieval age is mainly just that: a prejudice. Historically speaking, it wasn't that 'brutal time of rampant disease, no medicine, starvation, extreme levels of violence as a % of population, short life spans with brutal endings, superstitious and violent tribes, and fear and ignorance of the world around us' you want to make it for the greater glory of modern science.

Universities are a child of the middle ages, for example. In particular of the church. 12th and 13th centuries saw growth in economy and technological innovation - mainly outside of academic/scientific system but within traditional guilds that had a more hands-on approach then the theory-centered science of that and the the modern era (they were more interested in 'how to' or procedural knowledge than the 'know that/why' or propositional knowledge that science is centered around (though modern science is technology oriented in that is orienting propositional knowledge towards application)). Arts and culture flourished in the romanesque and gothic architecture and art. Serfdom actually declined in western Europe.

The picture of the medieval age as a "time of ignorance and superstition" that placed "the word of religious authorities over personal experience and rational activity" is, historically speaking, a caricature manufactured during the renaissance and enlightenment and the latter ones did characterise the medieval age exactly like that because they held science and reason to be superior to religion and faith (Davies Europe pp. 291–293 and Lindberg "Medieval Church Encounters" When Science & Christianity Meet p. 8), when this actually is a distinction that wasn't alife in the medieval age, where science, reason, religion and faith merged in the scholastic worldview. And no, peole didn't either die at the age of 40, usually. Either they died young or much later at approximately the same age as later on up to the 18th century - where it went down with the industrial revolution only to recover later again. (even in the upper paleolithic life expectency was closer to 54 years if one survived the comparatively vulnerable state of childhood.) So, what later application of science really did was reducing child mortality quite a bit, which is really great, but it's not like everyone died at 40 years back then - that was the work of applying science in early modern times.

These myths about 'them olden times before science helped us out' are shown to be such - maybe ironically - by modern historical and archelogical science.
« Last Edit: 23 Jun 2014, 14:41 by Nicoletta Mithra »
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Nmaro Makari

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Re: Abolish blasphemy laws
« Reply #95 on: 23 Jun 2014, 14:39 »

If anyone finds a poverty stricken society with just and proper governance, let me know.
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The very model of a British Minmatarian

Nicoletta Mithra

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Re: Abolish blasphemy laws
« Reply #96 on: 23 Jun 2014, 14:45 »

Quite the point, Nmaro: People need to secure survival before being able to look towards what the good life consists in.
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Nmaro Makari

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Re: Abolish blasphemy laws
« Reply #97 on: 23 Jun 2014, 14:51 »

Quite the point, Nmaro: People need to secure survival before being able to look towards what the good life consists in.

Just briefly acting on some friendly advice, I would just like to emphasise that I do not mean to appear short with anyone, which, as it was brought to my attention, sometimes comes across. I generally adhere to Orwell's rules of writing, I.e. never use more words than necessary.
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Nicoletta Mithra

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Re: Abolish blasphemy laws
« Reply #98 on: 23 Jun 2014, 15:02 »

I admire people who're good at making their point with few words: I'm really bad at it.

One more thing @Silas: I think it's fairer/intellectually more honest to compare (people killed 'through effects of religion'/time) to (people killed 'through effects of science'/time), rather than taking time as a multiplier there or taking the sum with time. Just, you know, scientifically speaking.
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Desiderya

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Re: Abolish blasphemy laws
« Reply #99 on: 23 Jun 2014, 15:34 »

You'd have to weigh it according to total population numbers over the time to make a proper statement.
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Silas Vitalia

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Re: Abolish blasphemy laws
« Reply #100 on: 23 Jun 2014, 15:40 »

Will respond more when not @ work but basically:

Scientific / evidence-based world view says "this is the best explanation we have currently based on what we know through repeatable experimentation that anyone is free to do on their own.  It will likely change when we know more. We DON'T have all the answers. This is our best guess."


Religion:

"We" are the chosen people/race/gender and are very special. This old book says so, or God told me. See? Right there on the page. Or God told me that I should be your King.  I have all the answers right here, and all the rules you must follow, too.   No, god didn't tell you? That's too bad.  I'll take 1/10 of your $ for the church please.   

Bad things happen because God wills it.  All Knowing.  All Loving.  Omnipotent.  Yes beautiful Sunrise. That's me.  Love you feel, that's me.  But.... That child got gang raped and hung from a tree? I knew it was going to happen, I didn't stop it.  Part of the plan!  Nazis killed 6 million Jews? Women? Children? Part of the plan.  Infinite Love.  Your dead parents in that car crash? Yup, your welcome!  Ebola virus! Yay! Don't question the plan. Beyond your feeble understanding. 

I acknowledge there could very well be a God.  I don't want to meet him.
 





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Lunarisse Aspenstar

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Re: Abolish blasphemy laws
« Reply #101 on: 23 Jun 2014, 16:49 »

Will respond more when not @ work but basically:

Scientific / evidence-based world view says "this is the best explanation we have currently based on what we know through repeatable experimentation that anyone is free to do on their own.  It will likely change when we know more. We DON'T have all the answers. This is our best guess."


Religion:

"We" are the chosen people/race/gender and are very special. This old book says so, or God told me. See? Right there on the page. Or God told me that I should be your King.  I have all the answers right here, and all the rules you must follow, too.   No, god didn't tell you? That's too bad.  I'll take 1/10 of your $ for the church please.   

Bad things happen because God wills it.  All Knowing.  All Loving.  Omnipotent.  Yes beautiful Sunrise. That's me.  Love you feel, that's me.  But.... That child got gang raped and hung from a tree? I knew it was going to happen, I didn't stop it.  Part of the plan!  Nazis killed 6 million Jews? Women? Children? Part of the plan.  Infinite Love.  Your dead parents in that car crash? Yup, your welcome!  Ebola virus! Yay! Don't question the plan. Beyond your feeble understanding. 

I acknowledge there could very well be a God.  I don't want to meet him.

Ugh.  Enough straw-men for one paragraph?  At this point a sound bite discussion isn't productive. I offered to exchange emails off line, I reiterate that, and I'll leave it at that and leave the discussion.
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Silas Vitalia

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Re: Abolish blasphemy laws
« Reply #102 on: 23 Jun 2014, 17:20 »

Will respond more when not @ work but basically:

Scientific / evidence-based world view says "this is the best explanation we have currently based on what we know through repeatable experimentation that anyone is free to do on their own.  It will likely change when we know more. We DON'T have all the answers. This is our best guess."


Religion:

"We" are the chosen people/race/gender and are very special. This old book says so, or God told me. See? Right there on the page. Or God told me that I should be your King.  I have all the answers right here, and all the rules you must follow, too.   No, god didn't tell you? That's too bad.  I'll take 1/10 of your $ for the church please.   

Bad things happen because God wills it.  All Knowing.  All Loving.  Omnipotent.  Yes beautiful Sunrise. That's me.  Love you feel, that's me.  But.... That child got gang raped and hung from a tree? I knew it was going to happen, I didn't stop it.  Part of the plan!  Nazis killed 6 million Jews? Women? Children? Part of the plan.  Infinite Love.  Your dead parents in that car crash? Yup, your welcome!  Ebola virus! Yay! Don't question the plan. Beyond your feeble understanding. 

I acknowledge there could very well be a God.  I don't want to meet him.

Ugh.  Enough straw-men for one paragraph?  At this point a sound bite discussion isn't productive. I offered to exchange emails off line, I reiterate that, and I'll leave it at that and leave the discussion.


There's no need to get upset.  Many, many people believe bad things happen to good people because it's part of a grand design that we just don't understand, and that's fine.  Billions of people do. Billions and billions.  I'm in a tiny minority that doesn't.   According to my peon moral code worshiping and thanking a diety for ruining your life and causing you harm, or allowing harm to come to you is strange, but I'm in the minority.

I frequently have to question my own beliefs simply because I'm in such a minority position compared to much of the planet. Is there something I'm missing? Does everyone else have it figured out?  I keep coming up with the same answers though.





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Lunarisse Aspenstar

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Re: Abolish blasphemy laws
« Reply #103 on: 23 Jun 2014, 17:38 »

Will respond more when not @ work but basically:

Scientific / evidence-based world view says "this is the best explanation we have currently based on what we know through repeatable experimentation that anyone is free to do on their own.  It will likely change when we know more. We DON'T have all the answers. This is our best guess."


Religion:

"We" are the chosen people/race/gender and are very special. This old book says so, or God told me. See? Right there on the page. Or God told me that I should be your King.  I have all the answers right here, and all the rules you must follow, too.   No, god didn't tell you? That's too bad.  I'll take 1/10 of your $ for the church please.   

Bad things happen because God wills it.  All Knowing.  All Loving.  Omnipotent.  Yes beautiful Sunrise. That's me.  Love you feel, that's me.  But.... That child got gang raped and hung from a tree? I knew it was going to happen, I didn't stop it.  Part of the plan!  Nazis killed 6 million Jews? Women? Children? Part of the plan.  Infinite Love.  Your dead parents in that car crash? Yup, your welcome!  Ebola virus! Yay! Don't question the plan. Beyond your feeble understanding. 

I acknowledge there could very well be a God.  I don't want to meet him.

Ugh.  Enough straw-men for one paragraph?  At this point a sound bite discussion isn't productive. I offered to exchange emails off line, I reiterate that, and I'll leave it at that and leave the discussion.


There's no need to get upset.  Many, many people believe bad things happen to good people because it's part of a grand design that we just don't understand, and that's fine.  Billions of people do. Billions and billions.  I'm in a tiny minority that doesn't.   According to my peon moral code worshiping and thanking a diety for ruining your life and causing you harm, or allowing harm to come to you is strange, but I'm in the minority.

I frequently have to question my own beliefs simply because I'm in such a minority position compared to much of the planet. Is there something I'm missing? Does everyone else have it figured out?  I keep coming up with the same answers though.

*gently* I couldn't either Silas. Certainly one isn't a peon for feeling your way.  But nor is one an idiot for feeling the a different way either.
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Silas Vitalia

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Re: Abolish blasphemy laws
« Reply #104 on: 23 Jun 2014, 19:26 »

I apologize if my tone is coming across as overly rawr, I can assure you I am trying to keep it light-hearted, text be damned.

I've got a lot of religious friends and this is a frequent topic.

I grew up in a very conservative, rural area in the US, and was probably one of the only kids (that I knew of) in grammar school who wasn't involved with church and other religious activities in the community.   While my experiences are of course not a representation of the entirety of christendom, growing up in a hick town with a high percentage of conservatives, not highly educated folks who don't treat non-believers the nicest tends to color one's views.

As an American I also can't help but see that the particular groups that are always, always fighting against equality, women's rights, and progressive issues tend to be conservative, christian, and white.   

Every political and social tent has its extreme elements, but America is a particularly religious country among industrialized nations, and it colors -all- of our politics in a way I'm not sure some of you Europeans might be familiar with.   

We have a lot of politicians who make policy issues in accordance with scripture, and who try extremely hard to insert it into public life.  I'm part of a minority of non-believers who are certifiably un-electable to public office.  Athiests are viewed with more disdain than almost any other group in the country according to many polls. 

If I come across as a bit antagonistic I apologize. Even though I have many amazing freedoms in the States, being athiest in public life here is worse than being homosexual to many.

 
« Last Edit: 23 Jun 2014, 19:50 by Silas Vitalia »
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