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Author Topic: I need some input from you kind wonderful folks.  (Read 9466 times)

Jace

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Re: I need some input from you kind wonderful folks.
« Reply #75 on: 10 Mar 2014, 11:21 »

Sami's quote of Falcon can't be any clearer, Mithra. And he has said this elsewhere, not just in private convos to her. "[...]
Edit: And if you want something alongside what Falcon said for some reason, from the introduction of Source:
Quote
this book aims to capture a moment in time, the world as it is in the year AD 23351
(emphasis mine)
(added emphasis)

Now, If I wasn't clear previously, I don't care what Falcon said or didn't say, whether publicly, privately or wherever else. It's really of no concern in regard to whether E:S is done well or not. Gesakaarin pinted out quite well why it is a really bad idea - next to malpractice in writing. They aimed and missed. And is this to say that the chronicles didn't aim to portray the world of EVE as it is? <,<

So, yah, I prefer to suffer my own dumbness and not the one of other: The former one I have to suffer any way, but at least it is free. All I get from suffering the dumbness of E:S is that I suffer more and pay for it. No thanks.

But again, when it comes from CCP - who defines what PF is and isn't - Source can't miss by definition. The people who decide PF decided it. Well done, poorly done, it doesn't matter. RPers are not the arbitrators of PF, we use what we are given and expand on it.

Edit: Just to make this crystal clear: it absolutely does not matter if Source was done well or done poorly. PF is PF, CCP obviously has designed this to be the definitive source. It could have been written by a five year old, and it would still be the new PF.
« Last Edit: 10 Mar 2014, 11:31 by Jace »
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Lyn Farel

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Re: I need some input from you kind wonderful folks.
« Reply #76 on: 10 Mar 2014, 15:27 »

A community that doesn't respect its own PF/lore/canon is doomed to that disease, no matter what. If everyone respects it, there is no reason for it to happen. Like in any roleplay game community, be it MMO or tabletop, as long as people keep being selfish and do whatever they want without any consideration for the community itself, it generates issues.

How can a community respect PF/lore/canon, if it's conflicting with itself at every edge and end? There is, for example, PF giving poets and poetics in Amarr society a really big value in cultural activities, with poets being able to acquire near-saint status. Now, in the EVE  sourcebook, it is stated that almost all arts that aren't visual are highly discuraged by the Amarrian establishment and that rephrasing the message of Scripture (like in religious poetry of the kind that had previously been held so high) would be considered almost scriledge in Amarr. What now is true, what is the PF one should roll with? Is the spaceship captain who began as court poet suddenly an ex-amost-heretic, when he would earlier by PF have been on a path that glorified God like no other?

To me this example sounds like someone getting the 'good idea' of taking the taboo on imagery the Islam has and turning it 'around' for the Amarr: A taboo on written word deviating from Scripture. That this doesn't make sense at all, given previous PF interested no one.

And there are several such instances and with every passing year they are generated manyfold, as the canon writers of CCP apparently have less and less an idea what already exists in terms of PF. No wonder with all the back and forth in that department, really.

Of course, that is also true in regard to slavery, the role of race and racism and many other central things within the Empire, which especially suffer from not being well defined, but being stuck in loads of PF paradoxes, because they are emotionally charged.

I've not followed the PF of other factions as much, but I think this isn't something merely found with the Amarr.

So, instead of fighting all the time a senseless war about which PF is to be taken seriously, most people in RP - especially those in there for some time - prefer to play in circles that share a consens on such things which are only more confused by referring back to PF.

Actually, I can definitely agree with that assessment. But we were not speaking about PF inconsistencies in this topic.

People play in their own consensus circles for the exact reasons you stated, or at least for a good part. Why the hell are we bothering with communities like backstage, and why people are coming here to ask for feedback ?

Why not just getting it from their own little circles ?

I'm asking myself what's the actual point of putting PF up on Evelopedia anymore. The 100% accessible to all resource is essentially considered to be retconnable at any time not only by Eve: Source, but by any purchased sourcebook that may be released in future. So I guess more monies is preferrable to having a consistent resource that anyone can look up and access.

Same.

I think this is also CCP stand. As it has been a long time since a page got updated or one from CCP had left a comment on a page (I think is almost a year now). So I think, as you mention, that they will go in the future with the Book way.

Another example would be the latest chron from Abraxes which even hadnt made its way to the EVElopdia (I had to bring it over :( ), as well as not on the EVE Chronicles Portal.

As you said. It is bad for monetization, as the wiki is 100% free. As well as you can put on a book a "PG-13" or "FSK-12" logo, and get all the legal stuff out of the way (as for the wiki you needed a page before "the page" which ask you like the dust page: How old you are?).

As for the ranking: Source, Books, Chrons, Wiki.... What come before what.. I actually dont care... As you mention "having a consistent resource" is more importent. As for me where this consistency comes from I dont care. I actually even think... they should put that stuff ingame (like swtor did with the codex), but this is like the immersion project out of order. So I dont care.

I think for me it's a situation that might develop such as:

Player A uses Evelopedia resources for their character and fiction.

Player B points out contradictions to Player A between their Evelopedia material and the E:S material.

Player A asks, "So now I've got to pay just to have access to the actual lore in Eve?"

I don't feel that's a good direction to go because this isn't a tabletop setting where you can show people nearby quickly in your sourcebook something specific lore-wise. If the lore is shifted OOG, how are people supposed to access that quickly in an MMO setting for reference and the like to each other?

Called it months ago. :/

And as far as not "accepting" what we got from TonyG? People ignored the contradictions they had to deal with when he directly contradicted previous Chronicles. But the rest was still, and still is, PF - as long as it doesn't contradict Source.

I wonder.

I always accepted every damn Canon we got thrown at, insanely good or insanely bad, and that includes every inch of TonyG-isms. I took upon myself, gritted my teeth, clenched my fists, and went with it. Why do you think I fucking hate Jamyl ? I may be a roleplayer, but i'm not my character. I'm a player, and a reader. And that includes every damn OOC knowledge.
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Nicoletta Mithra

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Re: I need some input from you kind wonderful folks.
« Reply #77 on: 10 Mar 2014, 15:55 »

But again, when it comes from CCP - who defines what PF is and isn't - Source can't miss by definition. The people who decide PF decided it. Well done, poorly done, it doesn't matter. RPers are not the arbitrators of PF, we use what we are given and expand on it.

Edit: Just to make this crystal clear: it absolutely does not matter if Source was done well or done poorly. PF is PF, CCP obviously has designed this to be the definitive source. It could have been written by a five year old, and it would still be the new PF.

Well, I will make it matter for me, one way or another.
I may be a consumer, but I'm not a brainless consumer taking everything someone puts in front of me. It's not like I'm some kind of labrat that has no other choice than to consume whatever food it is getting.
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Jace

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Re: I need some input from you kind wonderful folks.
« Reply #78 on: 10 Mar 2014, 16:00 »

Well, I will make it matter for me, one way or another.
I may be a consumer, but I'm not a brainless consumer taking everything someone puts in front of me. It's not like I'm some kind of labrat that has no other choice than to consume whatever food it is getting.

As always, you can do what you wish. If someone wants to build their character from a setting that isn't current canon, there's nothing the rest of us can do about it.
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Nicoletta Mithra

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Re: I need some input from you kind wonderful folks.
« Reply #79 on: 10 Mar 2014, 16:35 »

I don't need to build a character, I have a 7 year old, well established character, that didn't get into conflict with PF for most of the 7 year, unless you count the self-contradictory parts of PF.
Also, next to dropping into conflict with PF due to weird out-of-the-blue changes to PF, there'salwaysthe option to leave. It's not that I'm as married to EVEas a labrat to it's cage. And even they managed to escape.
« Last Edit: 10 Mar 2014, 16:39 by Nicoletta Mithra »
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Jace

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Re: I need some input from you kind wonderful folks.
« Reply #80 on: 10 Mar 2014, 16:43 »

I don't need to build a character, I have a 7 year old, well established character, that didn't get into conflict with PF for most of the 7 year, unless you count the self-contradictory parts of PF.
Also, next to dropping into conflict with PF due to weird out-of-the-blue changes to PF, there'salwaysthe option to leave. It's not that I'm as married to EVEas a labrat to it's cage. And even they managed to escape.

Every time you RP you are continuing to build a character. The rest of what you said is true - I don't think you are a lab rat or in a cage.
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Katrina Oniseki

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Re: I need some input from you kind wonderful folks.
« Reply #81 on: 10 Mar 2014, 17:39 »

Ember Vykos

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Re: I need some input from you kind wonderful folks.
« Reply #82 on: 10 Mar 2014, 20:49 »


By the way, there's a lot of derailing going on here. Most of these discussions should be split off.

Yeah, but I've never been one to mind when people split off into tangents since I do it a lot in regular conversation. I've got my use out of the thread anyway so if the mods decide to split or no I'm cool with it either way. Thanks go to everyone for the help/criticisms.
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[spoiler][/spoiler]

Current active RP character(s) - Kairelle
Past RP characters - Ember Vykos, Simca Develon
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