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[Makoto Priano]

Vic; I think that's one issue we're discussing here. I definitely agree that the destitute, criminal, or those who are no longer contributing to the labor market are likely to all be or become Disassociated-- but there were implications with the initial posts that there'd be efforts to actively create and expand the underclass to create a pool of non-citizen labor, which may then be sent to 'penal colonies' for cheap/free labor.

The issue I take, really, is that while an underclass will inevitably develop, mustache-twirling it's-totally-not-slavery-let's-fire-them-and-they-have-no-rights takes it rather far. I can absolutely see abuses happened in low- or null-security areas, or as short-term expedients, and definitely more so with Practicals or when the service demands. However, it plays an awful lot into the one-dimensional corporate vampire reading of Caldari culture that TonyG played with; while this is an important element of the culture, it must at least be moderated by the Confucian element to Caldari culture.

[Desiderya]

Regarding the original point of 'recruiting workforce by force' I've thought a bit. The Caldari dislike slavery as something that is damaging the economy (no value spread around), therefore I think that these measures might not be as common as we think. Taking a look at our modern days 'wage slavery' might be the much more common approach to this. Make extremely one-sided offers to people who have no choice and exploit them through the proper use of contract and commerce. There's plenty of possibilities to offer ways out of the disassociated status through these measures, whether them being real or just dangled in front of the prospective 'volunteers for dangerous off-planet excavation work'. Think temporary contracts that do not offer the same 'ciitzen deal' as proper employment does.

[Vic Van Meter]

Vic; I think that's one issue we're discussing here. I definitely agree that the destitute, criminal, or those who are no longer contributing to the labor market are likely to all be or become Disassociated-- but there were implications with the initial posts that there'd be efforts to actively create and expand the underclass to create a pool of non-citizen labor, which may then be sent to 'penal colonies' for cheap/free labor.

The issue I take, really, is that while an underclass will inevitably develop, mustache-twirling it's-totally-not-slavery-let's-fire-them-and-they-have-no-rights takes it rather far. I can absolutely see abuses happened in low- or null-security areas, or as short-term expedients, and definitely more so with Practicals or when the service demands. However, it plays an awful lot into the one-dimensional corporate vampire reading of Caldari culture that TonyG played with; while this is an important element of the culture, it must at least be moderated by the Confucian element to Caldari culture.

I can't see making Disassociated, no.  That wouldn't make any practical sense, especially considering there are probably more than enough Dissassociated to exploit that you don't need any more.  Also, I'd say it's probably a lot easier to exploit the people who already have no rights than to make more.  I can see that happening on a case-by-case basis to screw over someone you don't like, if you can manage it.  However, on a large scale, you can only do so much with exploited, unskilled labor.

Regarding the original point of 'recruiting workforce by force' I've thought a bit. The Caldari dislike slavery as something that is damaging the economy (no value spread around), therefore I think that these measures might not be as common as we think. Taking a look at our modern days 'wage slavery' might be the much more common approach to this. Make extremely one-sided offers to people who have no choice and exploit them through the proper use of contract and commerce. There's plenty of possibilities to offer ways out of the disassociated status through these measures, whether them being real or just dangled in front of the prospective 'volunteers for dangerous off-planet excavation work'. Think temporary contracts that do not offer the same 'ciitzen deal' as proper employment does.

To be fair, slavery has a lot of economic benefits (or it wouldn't have been so popular).  Essentially, it's a people you can pay the bare minimum of cost to upkeep, essentially giving you control because you can control the costs.  It might not be a morally good choice as far as the Caldari are concerned, but I'm assuming it isn't going to be off the menu for less upstanding corporations that think they can get away with it.  Someone is going to realize that if you create things using de facto slave labor and your competition doesn't, you can produce the same products for less money, allowing you to make profits at lower prices or to make higher profits at the same prices.

I think that's why the IRL implications keep getting brought up.  No matter how unpopular a concept is, some bastard is almost guaranteed to use it, and you usually find out it's more widespread than you'd ever imagine.

On that note, as opposed to just Disassociated people, are there fringe corporations?  Whole corporations who deal in shady businesses where this kind of thing might be more common?  It's more than likely that people who are exploiting the Disassociated aren't just breaking labor laws.

[Desiderya]

Well, I've just repeated what's been stated in PF (slavery article), so it can be argued that the main belief* in the caldari corporate culture is that empowering their workforce to buy their products beats "free" labour.
[spoiler]Quoted from evelopedia: While they understand slaves provide ostensibly free labor, they also realize that a slave owner needs to feed, house, and clothe his slaves. Additionally, though slaves can produce items of value, they are unable to purchase anything and thus cannot contribute to a healthy economy.

Therefore, the Caldari view slavery as a misguided notion that does more harm to an economy (and thus a proper society) than good.[/spoiler]

Additionally an enviroment that isn't as locked down as slavery makes it easier to spot talented assets (part of the ideal of meritocracy) and promote them through the corporate ladder. This, in theory, should expand to the disassociated as well, although I'm fairly sure that we'll see an enormous bandwith between genuine attempts to bring people back into the fold, a practical source of cheap labour and very questionable deals to get free access for jobs that are either not entirely legal, violate corporate worker rights (/contracts) or highly dangerous.

Also the caldari give apparently no shits about 'the moral choice'. Or in other words, what is moral for a caldari (The heiian concept VS ruthlessness) might be something entirely different than it'd be for a gallentean or amarrian.

Regarding 'Fringe corporations': The big eight are not the only corporations in the State. There are some independant and big enough corporations, namely Perkone, and it can be assumed that there are a lot of smaller ones as well, although it might be difficult to compete in an enviroment where a Mega is already established, and it can be assumed that it might be quite difficult to find out who is owned by which mega the further you move away from the big public spotlights (think shadowrun). Therefore I would assume that every megacorporation has their little vessels to conduct business on the side. Of course without knowledge of the top Execs. Upon discovering these heinous machinations heads will roll and a public apology will be read out.


*we're talking economics, after all.

[V. Gesakaarin]

The issue I take, really, is that while an underclass will inevitably develop, mustache-twirling it's-totally-not-slavery-let's-fire-them-and-they-have-no-rights takes it rather far. I can absolutely see abuses happened in low- or null-security areas, or as short-term expedients, and definitely more so with Practicals or when the service demands. However, it plays an awful lot into the one-dimensional corporate vampire reading of Caldari culture that TonyG played with; while this is an important element of the culture, it must at least be moderated by the Confucian element to Caldari culture.

I think the issue is that the Megacorporations can't fire all their workers and have them work for free while putting a gun to their head. Social unrest aside of it, one of the reasons I believe the Disassociated can be treated so poorly is because for in the Caldari mind it should be impossible not to have a job. In a sense it can become a self-fulfilling prophecy for the unemployed/disassociated: say you're fired and have your employment contract with a corporation torn up because you were convicted of a crime, how are you going to get a job again if you have that black mark against you? It becomes a no way out situation because the social prejudices against you reinforce themselves. All disassociated are criminals so don't hire them, until they have no choice but to become criminals to survive.

What makes them interesting as a part of the State is what also makes Eve interesting to me. It's that sort of sci-fi setting about humanity, and how even in the future with all our technology we can still be human and do very human things. What I'm trying to see here is how the Caldari view and treat these disassociated people not only through their own cultural lens but also just through the fact that they're people all the same. That, and I find it unrealistic if a society doesn't have its own imperfections, its flaws, because in the end they're human societies and prone to them.

Or perhaps I view the State differently. That just as much as there is the strength and prosperity, the glittering towers of glass and steel forged by a driven people there exists another State just beneath it populated by the weak and poor who did not make it.

[Makoto Priano]

The trick is simply that it isn't binary-- unemployed, thus weak, criminal and to be discarded, or employed, and thus a cog.

If someone becomes unemployed due to malfeasance, incompetence, criminal behavior-- then it's a stain on them, and they're lost, likely expected to book their own passage off station with whatever meager savings they have because otherwise they're trespassing and will be arrested and sent off to a penal colony.

Plant closures, or situations beyond the control of the citizens that form the basis of the economic machine...? In that case, a dutiful and loyal citizen who works hard for his zaibatsu cannot be thrown aside quickly; else, what's the value of loyalty, and what does that say to those who continue to toil for the corporation? Please note that this is the sort of airy notion of the zaibatsu-as-feudal-domain, whereas nowadays the trend is that even Japanese corporate culture no longer provides security.

That said, we agree that there is absolutely an underbelly, a population of the dispossessed who seemingly have no hope for the future. The question turns back to how many of these exist, and how they intersect with the State proper. I think I start liking the idea when we step beyond the purely economic discussion of it.

Quick thought games: Wiyrkomi justification for use of Disassociated labor? The social conservatism plays here; they offer the Disassociated a chance at redemption and a chance to serve the State-- but not criminals. Never criminals. Justice is swift and merciless.  The road to redemption and citizenship will be long and arduous-- but rewarding for your family and children, if you make the sacrifice. And it will be a sacrifice.

Kaalakiota? Expediency rules; they don't care who the Disassociated are, so long as using them serves the State. It might not be a habit, but it's not disregarded because :efficiency.:  There is no talk of 'redemption,' though of course exceptional value is noticed.

SuVee? Of -course- they're using Disassociated. How else do you get black market connections? And get plausible deniability when something goes slightly sideways?

Ishu? An inclusive economy is a robust economy. Offering a chance to rejoin polite society is a good way to incentivize proper behavior and salvage good material, and, well-- it just happens to profit Ishu at the same time. What, you expected us to be a welfare State? Wrong side of the war zone, citizen.

How do these angles sound, Veik?

[V. Gesakaarin]

The trick is simply that it isn't binary-- unemployed, thus weak, criminal and to be discarded, or employed, and thus a cog.

Just because I'm describing one means or method to be disassociated does not mean it's the only means or the only treatment. What I'm trying to describe are processes that appear to be natural consequences in very broad terms. Where did I say they actually were criminals? I said that they might be perceived as such by wider society, and that marginalization by society at large would make it a self-fulfilling prophecy. Is there a process in the State, where if you fall down into the social cracks, there is really a way out?

As for the whole Zaibutsu thing, that seems to be a model followed mostly by Ishukone RP'ers from what I can see, so it's probably why there seems to be such a divergence in thought and opinion regarding the disassociated.

[Makoto Priano]

Discussion of Confucian philosophy and the zaibatsu seems an effective shorthand for heiian, which I hear is a thing.

[Mithfindel]

About the communality and Caldari: In this thread, mostly economics has been discussed, but even for Caldari, just plain numbers aren't necessary the only scale on which a citizen-employee has been evaluated. Some people need to be retained to save face, preferably in such of a position that they can't do any further damage. Some people will probably be retained (even in somehow "bad" assignments) because it would simply not be a decent thing to do otherwise. And of course, the opposite, including possible wetwork or abduction to get rid of someone who needs to be removed.

And then, not all Disassociated are necessarily that bad off. A few people might find an ecological niche outside the society lead by the Big Eight. This group is further divided into multiple subgroups, including skilled migration workers (researchers, experts on rare fields etc.), the most successful of whom may work even with multiple megas and see thru the smoke and mirrors. Then there's State institutions. While the employees of neutral corps (such as the Navy) are probably legally citizens of their patron corp, it might be possible that such abominations as cross-block families might happen. And while the megas themselves migth deal with this rapidly, the reaction in neutral corps might vary. And then suddenly there's kids who might grow outside of the great big megacorporate family, or swap from mega to mega as their parents are given different assignments. And finally, there might be the worst of the worst, an independent corporation. Even a Disassociated person might secure small gigs, during which they are part of the megacorporation, and thus part of the society, but for an independent corp, all they've got is their contracts, while they may still need to provide everything a big corp does provide to their employees.

As a note, the Evelopedia article does also clearly say that the "unemployed" or "fallen off the society" do retain citizenship, thus probably exist in some registers, even if they practically don't exist. To be truly off the grid, the Disassociated would need to have never had a contract with a megacorp, so practically this would mean being second-generation Disassociated or an illegal immigrant.

[Seriphyn]

I'm confused. I thought non-entity and disassociated were entirely different?

[V. Gesakaarin]

I think a major issue regarding the Disassociated/non-entity aspect of the State is that it's never been clear what the legal definition actually is. Is there a citizen of the State with certain rights afforded, and then a corporate citizen of the State with further rights given from their corporation?

[V. Gesakaarin]

Discussion of Confucian philosophy and the zaibatsu seems an effective shorthand for heiian, which I hear is a thing.

I'm not sure what's so special about the zaibatsu. The post-war concept of stimulating domestic economic growth and industrial output through the use of laws to promote trade protectionism, currency regulation, subsidies, and favourable wages to stifle foreign competition and favour native companies wasn't just followed in Japan, it could be said to have also occurred in Germany, South Korea, Taiwan, and Singapore. Why only look at the history of Mitsubishi, and not BMW, Krupp or Samsung? Much the same philosophy is being followed in China with its own State owned companies too.

The only thing I can draw from it is if it's a discussion about how Caldari prefer self-sufficiency and economic autarchy?

[Lyn Farel]

Maybe there are a lot of post WW2 elements in the State (ingame post Luminaire mindset). Also don't forget the defensive and isolationist policy, which is also very cold war like in countries that were not really part of any bloc.

[V. Gesakaarin]

Maybe there are a lot of post WW2 elements in the State (ingame post Luminaire mindset). Also don't forget the defensive and isolationist policy, which is also very cold war like in countries that were not really part of any bloc.

I'd agree but my point was I never really grasped the whole Caldari Megacorp = Japanese Zaibatsu concept. There might be similarities, sure, but if we're looking for similarities then why not say the German corporate practices? German corporations and medium to small business appear to have had an underlying tradition of retaining their employees even through recession or economic downturns which means they always retain a talented pool of staff that are loyal to the company when things pick up again that could also speak to Caldari cultural concepts of communal self-reliance and self-sufficiency.

It's just one of those things I've observed I guess in that the Caldari seems to attract a lot of Japanophiles for some reason.

[Vic Van Meter]

Maybe there are a lot of post WW2 elements in the State (ingame post Luminaire mindset). Also don't forget the defensive and isolationist policy, which is also very cold war like in countries that were not really part of any bloc.

I'd agree but my point was I never really grasped the whole Caldari Megacorp = Japanese Zaibatsu concept. There might be similarities, sure, but if we're looking for similarities then why not say the German corporate practices? German corporations and medium to small business appear to have had an underlying tradition of retaining their employees even through recession or economic downturns which means they always retain a talented pool of staff that are loyal to the company when things pick up again that could also speak to Caldari cultural concepts of communal self-reliance and self-sufficiency.

It's just one of those things I've observed I guess in that the Caldari seems to attract a lot of Japanophiles for some reason.

RPGs seem to attract a lot of Japanophiles in general, to be fair.  I think it's just part of our nerd culture.  Most of us know more about anime than Brazilian troupe comedy, I suppose because Japan has always been so integral to game culture.