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[Vincent Pryce]

[Anslol]

Wow that guys isn't even a mod and he's talking so much shit? 

[Morwen Lagann]

Addendum, now that I've scanned through that log: Arista, you really should've reported that to us. I would've been at work at the time, but I would've seen the mail and would have been able to check if anyone was available to handle it.

A lot of people need to remember that not everyone in the Summit uses OOC and vice versa - it really isn't reasonable to tear into people over something so minor as linking something you're referring to, especially if it's a link being referenced IC and you just can't fit it into the already ridiculously short message limit.

The "no brackets" rule is intended to tell people if they want to have OOC discussions that they need to go to OOC channels or private convos. It is not a "use brackets once to clarify or fix typos, get banhammered for being a massive immersion-breaking fucktard" rule.

The people giving you shit in that log would've been told in no uncertain terms to either calm their tits or eat a dick.

[Arista Shahni]

Well, officially, a CCP employee was there

As for the petition thing - you justappeal it, and the GMs reverse it.  Happened when someoen in our corp tried to report people in corp for 'foul language' or something being used in corp chat.  The players (one of which was my husband) appealed the warning, and it was revoked.

[Iwan Terpalen]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Vlr4_sqGh26hE3DHH_cH9OC-w7mud5TxtR-Zplg_rsU/edit

Put a group of macaques in a roomy cage, with a large central pillar. Rig it up so that if one of them climbs it all the way to the top, sprinklers shower the entire cage with cold water. Pretty soon, the macaques learn to stay the hell away from the pillar, sure. What's more, when new macaques are introduced to the group, the old guard will slap them if they so much as look at the pillar with intent. What's intriguing is that after a while, the new macaques will join in the beat-downs, and that when you cycle out the old guard, after a while you may end up with a group of macaques who zealously keep up the behaviour while not knowing the first thing about where and why it originated..

[Arista Shahni]

Should just be fairly obvious by now that my beliefs are this - if there are rules and systems to handle rulebreaking, follow them, don't run your mouth. Just do it. Period.  Don't try and play good cop and act like you're helping someone out cause ooh they're breaking them and some magical person will get you in trouble.  Hate that shit.  Just makes people look like they're trying to be self important.  Someone does something wrong report it and keep your hole shut about it.

[Morwen Lagann]

We normally ask people to use their common sense for shit like this. If this is unreasonable of us, it would be nice to know.

If someone's using brackets in the Summit for reasons that aren't normally considered appropriate (correcting typos, linking things that don't fit in chat messages, like reference images or such, etc.) and isn't in OOC, the response from other players should be to politely let them know of the channel, and then offer an invite so they can use it. If they insist on continuing to do so and it is becoming disruptive, that is when a report should be sent to one or more moderators.

Generally, we're more concerned with people just being flat-out OOC in the Summit without brackets.

Folks also need to keep in mind that just because someone is in both channels it doesn't mean that they're watching both at the same time or even actively - Summit and OOC are in two different stacks for me but they each share their stack with at least 10 or 11 other channels, for example - sometimes it is far easier, and simpler, and more convenient for everyone involved for someone to toss a link in brackets in the Summit rather than expecting everyone involved in a discussion to check OOC or another channel. A lot of us have our characters effectively sitting in front of a camera drone while chatting, for example. Sometimes a quick image link can be helpful to clarify an object someone is holding, or a piece of jewelry that's in easy view, or just something in the background. In this kind of situation, it's more polite to toss a quick link into the IC channel than it is to expect people to think to look into another channel. If you don't care about the link or just want to use your own imagination, go right ahead. Just don't flip your shit over it - it isn't hurting anyone.

[Arista Shahni]

I was prolly having a bit of a pain day, thats usually went I go batshit about people getting on my case about stuff.

[Ava Starfire]

For what it's worth, I despise moderating. Period. I dont like even thinking about it. At times when the retardery in the channel grows beyond normal, tolerable bounds (and my limit is WAY above Morwen's) I ask someone to stop.

When a mod asks you to stop, STOP. Do not cry about it in channel, do not escalate it with whiny bitchfesting. If you want to bitch in private to me, have at it. Sometimes, I AM wrong. Sometimes, I respond poorly, because I don't know what to do. The overwhelming majority of the time, I do nothing at all; most minor derp I just shrug and let slide. If it bothers me enough that I am asking you to stop, STOP.

Believe me, when I am out of bounds (Yep, it happens) I get yelled at for it. I get told to stop. Sometimes I whine about it, but yep, it happens. I am told to stop, and I stop. Favoritism? My alt was muted last week for something I thought was relatively minor, and I didnt receive a warning beforehand. I bitched some. The mod who did it was right. That discussion, between me and moderation, occured in private, where MOST WARNINGS OCCUR.

If you dont like moderation, dont do things that cause moderation? Fuck. It isnt hard. If you dont like the channel, stop using it. If someone else is doing something you dont like, and we dont do anything, it likely isnt favoritism. It means we likely did not notice. I do online tutoring for my students. Sometimes, I am alt-tabbed out doing that. Sometimes, I am tying flies for customers. I am alt tabbed or not watching screen. Unless you report someone else's bullshit, you cannot cry about it if we do not intervene. We may just not know about it.

If it bothers you, PLEASE. Tell me. Whatever it is. I've quite publically taken the side of the player in question many times, against other mods. This isnt us vs you. This is us trying to do the best to keep a channel you all seem to enjoy using enjoyable and usable.

If you have suggestions, we're all ears.

Bitching isnt offering suggestions. It's just bitching.

Threw this up here because, after yesterday, it seemed like a good add.

[Syagrius]

I have to admit to an on again off again relationship with the Summit.  It took almost two years and some gentle nudging by an unnamed friend to visit again after my childish rage-quit.  Yes in life as in game pride is my primary vice.  But over time I have learned to respect how very difficult it must be to keep order in a channel where so many motivations and interests come to bare.  Sometimes you're wrong and sometimes your wronged.  The Summit is to my knowledge the largest IC player owned channel in game and its still open and thriving  That at least should be acknowledged and the work behind it appreciated.

[Katrina Oniseki]

I have to admit to an on again off again relationship with the Summit.  It took almost two years and some gentle nudging by an unnamed friend to visit again after my childish rage-quit.  Yes in life as in game pride is my primary vice.  But over time I have learned to respect how very difficult it must be to keep order in a channel where so many motivations and interests come to bare.  Sometimes you're wrong and sometimes your wronged.  The Summit is to my knowledge the largest IC player owned channel in game and its still open and thriving  That at least should be acknowledged and the work behind it appreciated.

If anybody ever wounds your pride, just give ol' Kat a call, and she'll fluff it back to full tumescence!

[Astrid Stjerna]

If you want the mod team to notice and do something about a character/user or situation, FILE A REPORT. We can only act according to our own perception of the problem until reports start showing up and giving us certain reason to suspect foul (role)play.

It is important to note here that we may not always agree with a report. We may strongly disagree, and reports should not be assumed to guarantee moderation. On the other hand, it should not be considered a guarantee of immunity. Depending on what we see in the logs, we may issue moderation against more than just the reported person (up to and including the person who made the report).

I want to raise a few issues, Kat (not that I disagree with what you're saying, of course ).

You mentioned that there's a perception of the Summit mods being an 'Orwellian police force'.  In many cases, this is more than just a 'perception'.

I have filed reports -- several of them, and two or three of that includes a particular mod.  In each case, the result was the same:

'The mods discussed it, they decided that [particular person] acted properly, so we won't do anything about your complaint'.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but that's rather like the police investigating themselves for corruption.

I've spoken, at length, on this topic (hell, I've even gone to Graelyn himself with my complaints).  The tone of the response has been 'the logs show nothing', or 'I don't believe you'.

If you want to dispell the stigma of Orwellianism that hangs over the Summit, I have a laundry list of ways to do that:

First, establish a clear and unambiguous standard of rule enforcement.  As it stands, a rule violation that particular mod 'lets slide' on Monday becomes the next mod's bannable violation on Tuesday, and then the mod that's there on Thursday is letting it slide again.  Yes, this does mean setting publically-visible rules again.  At least that way, we'd know that a mod wasn't just making stuff up to abuse their authority.

That last part ties in strongly with my next point:

Take complaints against moderators seriously.   Do a proper check-in and investigate the allegations properly.  Graelyn, this is (in part) directed at you: we are not typing complaints just so we can give our fingers a workout.

Third, and most important: regardless of EVE being a game, and mods being volunteers, the mods are in a forward-facing position and professionalism is important.  I've had long discussions with my EVE-playing friends, and most of them flatly refuse to use the player-run Summit because it's such a toxic and unstable environment.

And yes, a good many of them are upset about the behavior of a particular mod, but I won't get into that here.

It's been said, on occasion, that the Summit is 'not a democracy', and I'm inclined to agree: instead of a democracy, it's become akin to a dictatorship, and I have no interest in participating in a dictatorship.

(DISCLAIMER: I have no personal problems with any of the Summit mods.  I do not intend, in any way, to accuse any particular person of being 'a dictator' or engaging in any kind of inappropriate or unprofessional conduct.  The opinions herein are entirely my own, and do not necessarily represent those of the greater EVE playerbase or any specific person, corporation or entity).

[Esna Pitoojee]

Disregarding any of the other stuff: Clear and explicit rules were removed by popular request among both mods and users, as both felt they lead to both ridiculous levels of ruleslaywering and a perceived oppressive environment on their own, where people were met by a large and confusing list of "DO NOT ______" which grew ever longer in response to people trying to circumvent the existing rules.

To be more clear on this: When there were fixed rules, we got a stead flow of mails from people saying explicitly "I don't think this is the best method of doing this, for reason X". Mod team agreed, went back to a flexible judgement system. Since then, we've not had nearly the same rate of mails on this. If there is a serious widespread desire to see this changed, then speak up.

[Astrid Stjerna]

To be more clear on this: When there were fixed rules, we got a stead flow of mails from people saying explicitly "I don't think this is the best method of doing this, for reason X". Mod team agreed, went back to a flexible judgement system. Since then, we've not had nearly the same rate of mails on this. If there is a serious widespread desire to see this changed, then speak up.

I get that, honestly, and I'm not suggesting a huge long list of 'THOU SHALT NOTS'.

I'm simply saying that there's a perception (however incorrect it may be) among some of your patrons that the rules are enforced arbitrarily, depending on how a given mod feels about a particular person.

Now, I stress the point: that's only a perception, but it makes the mods as a whole look bad: why should anyone be expected to follow the rules if the mods don't even enforce them consistently?

Having a codified list of rules protects everyone involved: the patrons (who know, without equivocation, what rules they've broken and that they're being enforced fairly) and the mods (because they're much less likely to power-trip if they can't do it without getting caught).

What I'm saying is that having some rules that not everyone agrees with is much better than a 'flexible judgement system' that doesn't define any boundaries beyond the individual mod's opinion.

As for the rules-lawyering:with all due respect, if someone is 'gaming the system' by quibbbling over semantics...well, I have to question the wisdom of appointing someone who's so easily pushed around by those he's supposed to be governing.

[Tiberious Thessalonia]

We weren't.  We just stopped people from doing that by making the only firm rule be "Don't be an ass"