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[Lyn Farel]

I am pretty sure that you have a solid explanation, but keep in mind that if it's about connections and fame/appreciation, there is still that almost impermeable wall to foreigners in the Caldari State to break their rules. For example, when they denied the offer of assistance proposed by Ducia to bring expert mining slaves to rescue the caldari mining team that was stuck in an asteroid. That, even if it meant their death, just because otherwise would have been breaking State law (funnily enough, the Caldari population got rather outraged by their own authorities on that occasion).

[Gaven Lok ri]

So I have been thinking more about how Amarr missionaries would work since my musings yesterday, and I think its definitely worth considering that Amarr probably considers conversion incomplete unless it results in a change of allegiance to Amarr. That is, you cannot convert to Amarr unless you renounce loyalty to whatever system of government you are living under.

This suggests to me that the Amarr people responsible for funding missionary activity would view missionaries as offensive weapons in the reclaiming.

Further, it also suggests a etiquette to who the missionaries are sent to is probably in effect. So I would expect that Amarrian missionaries are sent to disaffected elements of hostile states. So in the Republic and Federation the lower classes and outcaste types would be the target.  The direct goal would be to create a fifth column within the hostile state to help in its eventual overthrow.

With an allied state, the goal would be to avoid insulting them and to find a way to incorporate them into the Amarrian government wholesale. So for the Caldari, I would expect that missionaries are sent to the corporate overlords in the hopes that the megacorps could be incorporated one day into the Amarrian religion. I doubt that Amarrian authorities would approve of missions to the Caldari  masses, because that would jeopardize the alliance with the higher up Caldari and risk causing the goal of converting the higher ups of the state to fail.

To make it into a rule of thumb: Amarr would always try to convert the highest officials first so long as the target is friendly, because that allows the most seamless integration of the target into the Empire, only if that fails and the highest officials of the target become hostile to Amarr would Amarr aim at the lowest elements of society and try to ferment internal  rebellion.

[Vic Van Meter]

I'd actually say that the Catholic model is a pretty decent model to work on as well, all things being in a vacuum.  I'm sure it's not exactly the same, but we've got nothing else to go on save that they use primarily Catholic titles.  As far as having bishops being sent into foreign space, that's not without precedent historically either.  There are dioceses pretty much everywhere in the world, even places that are not predominantly Catholic.  Since they aren't namely political entities, they don't really have a legal claim, but there is, for instance, a Metropolitan Archbishop of Tehran.  Just because the Amarr don't namely own the space doesn't mean they can't send a bishop.  Statistically, how many citizens live in hisec?  Trillions?  The U.S., with a population of 313 million, has 11,000 registered, practicing Zoroastrians.  They are .004% of the population.  That would mean even if the entire cluster was just a trillion people, and if that cluster only had as many people practicing the Amarrian faith as there are American Zoroastrians, there would still be four billion people practicing the Amarrian religion.  Considering how much space they control, I suppose it's hard to imagine that their religious ideas haven't leaked out at all.  It's just a matter of statistical scale.

It's not a new idea, but as the reaction from the community shows, it's definitely not something people are used to.  Constantin's bottom-up approach seems fairly new, though, which is why that non-entity in Caldari space ministry thing is probably true to some degree or another (it doesn't matter to me how much people attribute his work to them or to Caldari businessmen, since Constantin is never very specific about it).

I've related Constantin to the Theology Council specifically because I didn't think they'd let him go out there and pull a Martin Luther in foreign space.  To be fair, you can assume it isn't a universally popular position, but it doesn't seem like it's anathema to all Amarrians, just the more old-school conquering type.  Plenty of people want to just conquer foreign space and MAKE them Amarrian, but that's proved to not essentially work in converting them for the glory of God.  Constantin is an evangelical that doesn't particularly buy into the idea of warfare leading to conversion.  Obviously, the Minmatar were conquered, and they weren't converted.  Essentially, he was sent out into foreign space without much besides a stipend and a couple of staff without a lot of good examples to draw on.  He's improvised ever since.

[spoiler]The idea is that the Theology Council is VERY divided about how he's done it.  His ideas aren't universally loved, but they've proven effective even on the IGS at softening some of the vitriol people have for the religion.  He's also had to improvise using his position and what abilities he has.  The Theology Council has too many conflicting officials that can't decide whether Constantin's method is a courageous and powerful way to continue the Reclaiming without warfare or a giant misstep that is producing believers who aren't necessarily loyal to the crown.  They've had the effect of cancelling each other out so far, keeping Constantin at his present rank but without recalling or replacing him.  So Constantin is simply carrying on with his mandate as it stands, doing what he can to promote the religion outside his space.

It's really not as much about what he's doing in other space as much as how people react to him.  He's very obviously a multiculturalist and an evangelical, so he has a lot of play that keeps him from being an easily pinned-down UAD type.  People from every background and empire have good reasons to love or hate him, or even to have completely conflicted reactions to him.  That's sort of the point.[/spoiler]

I do all this research and work not to make characters who are perfectly adherent to every detail, but so that my characters can't be defined in a few words and dismissed.  If it was possible to say that all people of such-and-such background are then obviously such-and-such, the playing field becomes flat and characters become less idiosyncratic and much less stimulating.  I am trying to cover as many details as I can and to not throw up too much of a wake, but that isn't really the point of RP to me.  RP is meant to be about making new and interesting characters, especially those who aren't lost in a sea of their race, their culture, or even people doing the exact same job as they are.  RP shouldn't be about chess pieces and worrying specifically about how they move.  It's about group writing and being interesting.

Really, I go over the minutiae, over and over, simply because in games like this I absolutely have to or we'll all get bogged down in these kinds of arguments and forget about the important stuff.  Arguing lore isn't really a lot of fun.  Having a character that I have fun reacting with and that people have fun reacting to one way or another is the reason I like roleplaying.  It's creative writing at its most entertaining.  If shifting details makes it fit for you, then anyone can consider the minutiae however they'd like.  The important part isn't about what his title is.  Truth be told, that's how I know how well I've been doing at the RP bit.

Does a character bring out subtleties in other characters that make them stand out from each other?  I hope Constantin does, because that's what I aim for as an artist in this obscure little genre.

[Gaven Lok ri]

The issue I am struggling with, Constantin, is that the way I see it the *core* Amarr belief is submission to the chosen of God, that is the True Amarr and the Emperor. Catholics can argue when they set up a foreign mission that people can be loyal to the church and their local governments, render unto Caesar and all that; Amarrian's can't argue that. Anyone who converts to Amarr changes political loyalty as well as religious loyalty.

[Makkal]

I think the current relationship between the Kingdom and the Empire suggests otherwise.

[Arnulf Ogunkoya]

I think the current relationship between the Kingdom and the Empire suggests otherwise.

Good point. But that would argue to Constantin being sponsored by a source outside the Theology Council, say one of the "moderate" heirs, but with his contacts in the council giving him enough political cover to prevent him being declared a heretic.

Incidentally, does anyone know if Father Goose is still flying? I suspect Constantin's could have a bit of fun interacting with him.

As a non-imperial roleplayer it's nice to have an imperial character I have some IC justification for Arnulf to talk to (even if it is to help Arnulf research his way-out-there thesis on the Imperial faith being a heresy of something older ).

One final point. The Empire is huge and, has already been agreed, has a lot of variation in how people practice the faith within the remit given by the Theology Council. Surely within that it would be possible to have groups that come over as slightly Roman Catholic, or Orthodox, or even Muslim in the way they do things? Of course to a contemporary Christian or Muslim they would be heretics of the worst sort. That makes it even funnier, and more tragic.

[Louella Dougans]

There are plenty of Caldari people who have converted to one of the Amarr religions.

The Gallente call them "Terrorists" in the mission in which this is mentioned.

[Pieter Tuulinen]

It's my belief that any Caldari who openly convert to the Amarrian Faith would find themselves as one of the unattached VERY quickly - unless they were absolutely irreplacable.

[Gaven Lok ri]

I think the current relationship between the Kingdom and the Empire suggests otherwise.

Except that Khanid II is still true Amarr and was a valid contender for the throne, so the split there doesn't really conflict with the core Amarr message being obeying the chosen. Its an internal disagreement about who the chosen are.

I am going to maintain that conversion to Amarr means renouncing your other political loyalties. This would be true if someone converted to the Khanid faction of Amarr as well, its just that the new loyalty would be to Khanid rather than Jamyl. What I don't think you can have is a Caldari convert to Amarr who stays loyal to the megacorps.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

The issue I am struggling with, Constantin, is that the way I see it the *core* Amarr belief is submission to the chosen of God, that is the True Amarr and the Emperor. Catholics can argue when they set up a foreign mission that people can be loyal to the church and their local governments, render unto Caesar and all that; Amarrian's can't argue that. Anyone who converts to Amarr changes political loyalty as well as religious loyalty.

I don't agree at all: The core of the Amarrian faith isn't Submission to the True Amarr at all. To God, yes, but not to the True Amarr - otherwise we wouldn't have ethnical Khanid holders, ni-Kunni Holders, Udorian Holders and Heirs and the Assimians are factually not distinguished from True Amarr anymore.

I agree though that conversion means also that one acquires new loyalties. These might conflict with the ones one have. As conversion to the Amarrian Religion is a precndition to acquiring Amarr citizenship, it is implied logically that one can convert without acquiring citizenship, though. Maybe I dig out the respective passages of PF.

As to the byzantine church hierarchy and Administration working so differently from the Roman catholic: I still maintain that this isn't the case, especially fot the middle ages: It's not as if emperors haven't had influence on the Pope and for a time it was even the byzantine emperor who placed the Bishops of Rome on their thrones. Basically both have the same ranks, from deacon over priest to bishop and they have the same Basic functions to fulfill. This isn't so surprising, given that until the Great Schism (1054) Eastern and Western Christianity were considering themselves a single church.

Differences in how the Administration interacts with secular branches aren't really - as interesting as they may be and as important as they may be for the different directions the churches took after the Great Schism - that essential. The fundamentals are quite similar and it's no accident that under Benedikt the Oikumene with the Orthodoxy made much more Progres than among the Roman Catholic Church and the Protestants. the somewhat higher centralisation of the RC church with it's particular churches, though, is something that fits the Amarrian Religion far better than the multiple, factually Independent patriarchs of the Eastern Orthodox Churches.

[Lyn Farel]

Just look at the number of anti popes through centuries and you will end up pretty much convinced that a lot of religious figures were put in their place due to their connections/alliances with lords, and vice versa.

The issue I am struggling with, Constantin, is that the way I see it the *core* Amarr belief is submission to the chosen of God, that is the True Amarr and the Emperor. Catholics can argue when they set up a foreign mission that people can be loyal to the church and their local governments, render unto Caesar and all that; Amarrian's can't argue that. Anyone who converts to Amarr changes political loyalty as well as religious loyalty.

Maybe but i'm not so sure it's that radical. We know that there are believers outside of the Empire, gallente natives or else, that worship the same religion (more or less). Yet they didnt move to Amarr space as soon as they converted, and still live in their native countries.

One could argue that it means they didnt truly converted, but that would be biased and what I would expect from a hardliner, and becomes a matter of definition, much like there are many definitions for what it is to be Matari, Caldari, or whatever.

It's my belief that any Caldari who openly convert to the Amarrian Faith would find themselves as one of the unattached VERY quickly - unless they were absolutely irreplacable.

I'm not sure of that either, since there is no real state religion in the State. It would say that it mostly depends of the people above the individual, like IRL. Like it would be the same for homosexuality. I would not be surprised to see that it's the same kind of taboo.

[Odelya]

The issue I am struggling with, Constantin, is that the way I see it the *core* Amarr belief is submission to the chosen of God, that is the True Amarr and the Emperor. Catholics can argue when they set up a foreign mission that people can be loyal to the church and their local governments, render unto Caesar and all that; Amarrian's can't argue that. Anyone who converts to Amarr changes political loyalty as well as religious loyalty.

I don't agree at all: The core of the Amarrian faith isn't Submission to the True Amarr at all. To God, yes, but not to the True Amarr - otherwise we wouldn't have ethnical Khanid holders, ni-Kunni Holders, Udorian Holders and Heirs and the Assimians are factually not distinguished from True Amarr anymore.

As to the byzantine church hierarchy and Administration working so differently from the Roman catholic: I still maintain that this isn't the case, especially fot the middle ages: It's not as if emperors haven't had influence on the Pope and for a time it was even the byzantine emperor who placed the Bishops of Rome on their thrones. Basically both have the same ranks, from deacon over priest to bishop and they have the same Basic functions to fulfill. This isn't so surprising, given that until the Great Schism (1054) Eastern and Western Christianity were considering themselves a single church.

I think what Gaven meant is that you cannot become a believer and accept the Gallente/Caldari or so political order. The Emperor is part of the scriptures and cannot be ignored.

But I also would not limit the concept of being chosen to True Amarr, but to everyone who has an established place within the religious and political framework of Amarr. (We know from pf that there are Udorian saints and also saints from other ethnicities.) But since all heirs are True Amarr (or True Amarr mixed with Udorian ancestry) there definitely is a racial prejudice when it comes to the top echelons of the ruling class—at least in the proper Empire. And this might reflect into what is happening in rituals and so on. For sure there has been some kind of accommodating action and counteraction (like we see with Ardishapour in the Mandate).

tl;dr: “Becoming Amarr” also involves accepting its political order; somehow.

Differences in how the Administration interacts with secular branches aren't really - as interesting as they may be and as important as they may be for the different directions the churches took after the Great Schism - that essential. The fundamentals are quite similar and it's no accident that under Benedikt the Oikumene with the Orthodoxy made much more Progres than among the Roman Catholic Church and the Protestants. the somewhat higher centralisation of the RC church with it's particular churches, though, is something that fits the Amarrian Religion far better than the multiple, factually Independent patriarchs of the Eastern Orthodox Churches.

I think the pre-Ardishapour mandate and the Khanid Kingdom serve as good counter-examples your statement. They have their Khanid and Ammatar churches, they can't ignore the Emperor as a symbolic head of church, but have their own independent leaders. The Emancipation Degree didn't take effect in the Kingdom, the Order of St. Tetrimon wasn't outlawed, they even have their own Saints, much like the Orthodox Churches. Most doctrines are the same, but the branches develop independently and have their separate heads while acknowledging a symbolic one.

(The Ammtar thing: http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/orthodox-amarr-faith-increasingly-supplanting-ammatar-church/)

[Nicoletta Mithra]

I know about These things, but it really is more like the Catholic Church, which - as is apparently a Little klnown fact - is made up of 23 autonomous particular churches. Most doctrines are the same, but the autonomous churches have some leeway (e.g. in most autonomous churches that the Catholic Church is composed of, Priests can be married if they got married before getting invested as Priest.). Still, it's strictly hierarchically organized with an Institution on top that can decide on doctrinal matters for all member churches. The latter has never really been the case with the Eastern Orthodox churches, though the byzantine Emperor claimed such a position for a time (though did never manage to extend his influence on all Eastern Orthodox churches). That's also not how it is with the Empire, as not the Emperor, but the TC has the last word about changing doctrine.

The Theology Council is not merly a symbolic figurehead - nor is the Emperor - but has real powers in all churches of the Amarr Empire (save maybe the Khanid church, which really doesn't seem to have much of an organization, and is more in the Hand of holders than trained priests - it's an exception to the rule in many ways). All proper member churches are bound by TC rulings. This is not at all the Situation of orthodoxy where each Patriarch can decide on doctrinal matters as he sees fit in his see. The more centralized catholic hierarchy is a better model of how the Amarr Religion works.

[Silas Vitalia]

I think any Caldari true-believers would face a rough road maintaining their employment and social networks in the State.

The official attitude might tolerate a variety of beliefs, but you better believe no one at the office or the assembly line wants to hear one iota about it. 

"Stop making waves with this nonsense, get back to work"

"This new affiliation has become a distraction to those around you. You post one more pamphlet in the break room and you are fired, understood?"

[Gottii]

What Silas said.  To repeat, the Caldari megacorps are fanatical about preserving exactly one Caldari culture.  To step outside of the Caldari cultural mainstream and adopt a new religion would be career and social suicide.  Probably quite literally, as in Tea ceremony suicide.