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[Vikarion]

"The Ever-turning Wheels" Chronicle implies very heavily that the Caldari are occupying Federal planets, and, in a subversion of the "fascist occupiers" trope, generally doing so as peacefully and non-violently as possible. And then turning the worlds into Caldari-minded efficiency engines.

I forget where I found the PF for this, but I also found some statements talking about how the Gallente are essentially taking a scorched earth policy in Black Rise. I wish I could remember where I found it.

This appears to be an attempt by CCP to increase the grey vs. grey of the factions, but I personally think that I'd prefer that the Caldari were winning the war by anti-matter derp-cannoning anything they couldn't haul away. I mean, what's with being ebul in space and nice on the ground, huh?

Ever-turning wheels is here: https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Ever-Turning_Wheels_(Chronicle)

One thing that should be remembered, IMO, about the Caldari, is that they do not tend towards cruelty, culturally. We really should expect to see most of the war crimes on the Gallente side - because they feel that their ideals have been justified, because they feel that someone deserves punishment. The Caldari are reward-driven, by-and-large, so they will kill you if you are in the way, or save you if they think not killing you will be better, more profitable. Nothing is personal, it's all business. Right up to the point that you try to control them or take something from them.

[Seriphyn]

I think it's pretty naive to assume that, in war, one side is more capable of 'war crimes' than the other. Vikarion's argument can easily be argued against by saying "The Gallente are legally bound (ie. the constitution) to abide by principles of human dignity, and the Caldari care little about foreigners so they could do whatever they want". The correct answer IMO is both states of affairs will exist somewhere across the couple hundred of star systems in the warzone. The Ever-Turning Wheels was just one planet after all. If EVE is about human nature, then all sides will be capable of heinous war crimes. But that's another discussion 

Anyway, the whole thing is supposed to be a quagmire. The CEMWPA is independent of the Caldari blind auction, and the Intaki Agreement was independent of both CEMWPA and the blind auction. The Federation Government in Villore recognizes the Intaki Agreement but does not recognize the Caldari blind auction. The Federation Government in Villore signed the CEMWPA but it's very likely the Intaki Assembly did not agree to it. And claiming opposing truths and interpretations over a legal document is very much a RL political source of tension.

The CEMWPA has been stated to be 'ambiguous' with regards to planetary ownership. Elusenia recognizes the local and historical political standard to take supremacy, and does not see the CEMWPA as being a law, just an agreement about capsuleer militias. Pyre-Falcon apparently does see it as a law, which Elusenia could not abide be. Additionally, since Elusenia is neutral, if it recognizes Caldari sovereignty over a Gallente system, they are effectively siding with the Caldari (assuming they don't recognize Gallente sovereignty over Caldari territories at the same time). And fitting with a remark in the Blind Auction chronicle, Elusenia does not recognize the development rights over Placid as a Gallente-based entity.

And I'm just ignoring the metafiction discussion IC because that's what should be done IMO. Highly enjoyable thread, otherwise. Even if it doesn't amount to nothing in-game, the diplomatic sabre-rattling is entertaining enough. Doubly so that it's not rawr slaves.

[Etienne Saissore]

"The Ever-turning Wheels" Chronicle implies very heavily that the Caldari are occupying Federal planets, and, in a subversion of the "fascist occupiers" trope, generally doing so as peacefully and non-violently as possible. And then turning the worlds into Caldari-minded efficiency engines."

There's a striking similarity between the Chronicle and how a real-life invasion/assimilation process works, and that's why I'm not so sure if the implications are as positive as suggested in the quote above.

I forget where I found the PF for this, but I also found some statements talking about how the Gallente are essentially taking a scorched earth policy in Black Rise. I wish I could remember where I found it.

Here's some PF which says that it's not the official policy. From the article, "The Navy will take all appropriate action to apprehend these criminals and try them for war crimes."

However, although I'm not quite convinced by Vik's reasoning concerning who is driven by what, it kind of feels plausible that the Caldari population might be more difficult to assimilate, and this in turn might render a scorched earth policy as the preferred option in Black Rise and Citadel, as long as it remains below the threshold of public outrage.

[Gesakaarin]

Pyre-Falcon apparently does see it as a law, which Elusenia could not abide be.

I thought it was clear by now Pyre Falcon considers it as law as what it can enforce at the end of the barrel of a gun. I believe it's the political model of, "Going to undertake unilateral action. Don't like it? Feel free to shoot it up, breh."

[Lyn Farel]

I don't think it's the first time the, "proof or stfu" argument has ruined some RP, Lyn, and I don't think it will be last.

Yes, but that's not so much "proof or stfu" that ruins RP here, it is the deliberate decision to resort to the unprovable, or, said less nicely, pulling things up one's ass that are not described in PF, and thus, appropriating the PF to win said RP. Saying that one has the whole documentation at hand is kindof abusing relationship where you completely force the hand of the other players into a PF game about who has the bigger and can pull up the biggest lie since nobody obviously has the documentation available, OOCly, to begin with.

It's rather inelegant and poor form, and by experience tends to oneshot interesting RP scenes like this one.

To be clearer, one can certainly say that since they hold sovereignty in space through FW game mechanisms (can't be denied, and that's backing one's word with ingame actions, the holy grail), and thus can invade the planet(s) as they see fit, through districts and DUST for ingame actions, or through pure world building like we have seen already in chronicles where planets are invaded and transferred under the control of the enemy. Of course, world building can be seen as pulling things up one's ass, but that's fine if you can have an OOC agreement with the other side like in any world building coop stuff. In that vein, that thread was extremely intriguing and rather awesome as it involved a strong discussion on who has the right to do what in that silly intricacies of intergalactic treaties and jurisdictions in the frame of the proxy war. Which means, as it is often best (and worse) in RP in Eve, the more vague and grey it is, the more it offers opportunities for each side and does not offer a clear cut unilateral consequence.

But one has to be careful when threading with so called documents supposedly available to everyone ICly. You can make up stuff without contacting the other parties to see if that's fine with them, but that's a bet in itself since if they do not agree at all with your interpretation, that's suddenly drama on the table, and like Gwen says, putting a Schrodinger cat in a box. Here it's exactly like making up scriptures to prove one's point. The other side has the remaining options to :

- Withdraw / stfu.
- Counter argue and say that you are quoting bullshit.

Which gets everyone absolutely nowhere.

So, all in all, I perfectly expect that from the random guy on the IGS, but I was a little disenchanted to see that was actually us.

That said that's the only issue I had with that awesome event, and double awesome by the fact that Laurentis tried to set up something for one, and then actually get people involved and interested to the point that military escalation was almost going to happen, like a few crisis during the cold war, ready to detonate.

[Katrina Oniseki]

On the contrary, I think it's perfectly okay to suggest our characters have the entire text available to them IC, and quote some "made up" passages from said text. I think with some common cooperation, both sides could have hashed it out OOC and said, "So what exactly did your character see in the text, and how else might it be interpreted?" Maybe there are issues with interpretation, translations between languages, or even legalese. There could have been any number of arguements that would have worked better:

"That passage doesn't apply to you, capsuleer!"
"You're still violating Article VII, Section G-56, where it is clearly stated that ______________..."
"We retain sovereign rights to this area, regardless of occupation!"
"You've translated the text wrong for your own agenda! It clearly says ___________ in our translations!"

Suggesting that none of us can see the text is a bit derpy. We might as well never quote Scriptures, or the Federation Constitution, or the Quafe can labeling. If we can't handwave some worldbuilding for our characters, things get boring very fast. The key isn't rigidly sticking to only what PF is physically available to us as players. The key is cooperation when we add to it.

It wasn't the claim of knowing what's in the CEWPA that ruined it. It's the lack of cooperation displayed by some involved parties that ruined it. As said by Pieter earlier in the thread, he and Seriphyn worked it out - why couldn't everyone else?

[Gesakaarin]

Truth be told, I'm a terrible roleplayer and always do it wrong in that I try not to make grandiose claims I can't back up in space whilst trying not to pull the rug from underneath others with arbitrary tossing of PF rules at them.

[Desiderya]

Keep it simple and vague, because constructing the perfect 'source' out of non-existant PF is as retarded as demanding proof for something you OOCly know can not be delivered, simply because it does not exist in PF.
It should be fairly simple to construct a believable IC viewpoint for almost any direction something like this could go without ruining it for other interpretation. Especially in legal matters. Why do you think laws are enforced in courts by people, not by a check in the databank. It hardly is an on/off situation even when you're trying to settle a dispute about a fecking garden fence. Escalate this to national or even international matters and the sad truth is that it depends less on what is written, but more on what you can get away with, eloquently summarized by Gesakaarin in one of the posts above.

[Lyn Farel]

I am probably over dramatizing it since people seem to be able to work it out and do some damage control on all sides to make it work. 

[Pieter Tuulinen]

I'm always totally vague when referring to space-rules, because we don't have the text. I felt justified to say "CEMWPA says we have jurisdiction" because of the Caldari control of that system. Seri felt justified to say "No it doesn't. We control the planetary districts." and I ceded that to him.

Of course Elusenia then went on to say "Shove the CEMWPA  up your butt, we don't recognise it as a law!" at which point, if there had been Caldari control of Planetary districts, I'd have felt perfectly justified to say "We're hotdropping Caldari districts with troops. Move your Carabineros or lose 'em, sister."

That would have led to more negotiating, but I'm fairly sure Seri would have backed off - provided I stuck to Caldari controlled planetary districts.

[Jandice Ymladris]

Have to say, I really liked this event. A great example of a player run event going beyond what's intended by allowing participation of others & communication between participants (up till the whole CEMWPA stuff) But honestly, I followed what Laurentis Thiesant did, ignoring the less 'productive' RP'ers and stuck to the ones with sense (Pieter & Seriphyn and those who kept levelheaded) to make it a nice story.

Why did I follow Laurentis? Because even tho he gave it out of hands after the election, it still felt like 'his event' sort of a GM for it, and hence a moderator for what course to follow. Him being levelheaded about it was a great bonus. The events that transpired & how things were done/handled serve as an inspiration for what I'm trying to do with the colony worldbuilding (without the fancy graphic pics)

Apologies for the late reply on this, but really wanted to say it in public, also as thanks to Laurentis for doing something like this.