Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[kalaratiri]

*squee (mk2)*

Hello!

Lets get back to this HAC thing. The first HAC proposal raised discussion around tons of topics (you can find it HERE if you don't believe me). Common ones included our overall design for tech levels, the way HACs intersect with tech 1, tech 3, and faction ships and of course specific input on ship-by-ship stats and performance. I want to try and cover as much of this as possible so get some tea or something.

Lets start with role. We've had several presentations and posts and dev blogs now which explain that tech 1 is general and tech 2 is specialized. While this is certainly our high-level goal, it will be compromised occasionally when the specifics of a certain project have other goals that pull in another direction. HACs are an example. The reality is that when HACs were first introduced they were just cruisers on steroids. The defensive benefits of added resists were the most distinct 'specialization', but they were nowhere near as specialized as something like Recons or Stealth Bombers.

With the rebalance effort here, we discussed entirely new roles or specializations that would be more in-line with the high level ideas we have laid out for all EVE ships, but ultimately decided that it wasn't worth completely throwing out the ships we had. Not only do they have a lot of history in the game, which leads to attachment, but they also have a lot of legitimate use already which we wanted to avoid disrupting if possible.

Now all that said, most of the feedback was in agreement that you would prefer to have their role more clear and pronounced. Basically, we didn't go far enough by adding the role bonus and it would be better if they stood out more from their competition as being specialized in some way. So, we focused on their resilience. HACs are tough but mobile cruisers that can take a lot of punishment. What we want to do is extend that tenacity to some of their other systems, namely electronics and capacitor.

• All HACs will gain 7-8 sensor strength, putting their average Sensor Strength at 22 which is right around combat battleship range.
• All HACs gain 15k to 25k lock range
• All HACs have their cap recharge per second set to around 5.5 rather than the former 3.5 - 4.5 cap/sec

Along with these changes, we are going to go ahead with the originally proposed role bonus. I've seen and participated in tons of talk about this bonus and I keep seeing the same problem - the tracking formula is not intuitive and the confusion leads to this bonus looking less powerful than it actually is. I've made another set of graphs to help illustrate, but please keep in mind that this is just one example and results may vary.

DAMAGE GRAPHS

On the left is the damage that three different ships (Null Blaster Talos, HML Drake and AHAC Zealot) do to a Sacrilege with its MWD on without the role bonus. On the right is after the role bonus. You can see that the Zealot, which tracks extremely well, isn't heavily affected, but the Talos and the Drake lose about 25% of their DPS. Now we can have a new discussion about how important that 25% is, but its important to understand that we are usually talking about an extremely significant amount of damage mitigation when MWD is active. And again, we know that not all HACs will be running MWDs, but we feel that those configurations are plenty powerful and prefer to support a larger variety of applications by adding the MWD bonus.

Alright, lets get to specifics. The big takeaway from feedback (both CSM and public thread) was that we have more room to make HACs more powerful without putting too much pressure on their competition, so watch for that as you read through all the changes. Note: the differences appearing in (parentheses) are as compared to the version of ship on TQ currently, not the first iteration.

The Ships!

SACRILEGE

We wanted to get rid of the cap recharge bonus, as it is both kind of dated and strange, and also doesn't do much for a ship that doesn't even use cap for its main weapon system. We played with a lot of options but ultimately settled on a Missile Velocity bonus which should be very helpful in projecting some of that HAM damage. Other changes include tweaks to fitting, slightly lowered Signature radius, and of course the electronics changes. While we did not role the entire benefit of the former cap recharge bonus into the base stats, the Sacrilege does retain the highest cap/second of any Heavy Assault Cruisers.

Role Bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Amarr Cruiser Bonuses:
5% to Heavy Assault and Heavy Missile damage (added heavy missiles)
4% to all Armor Resistances

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Heavy Missile and Heavy Assault Missile velocity (was capacitor recharge time)
5% bonus to Missile Launcher rate of fire

Slot layout: 6H, 4M, 5L; 1 turrets(-3), 5 launchers
Fittings: 1100 PWG(+70), 420 CPU(+20)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1200(-193) / 2100(+12) / 1690(+2)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 1700(+75) / 255s (-80s) / 6.66s (+1.
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 200(+2) / .567 / 11750000(-540000) / 9.24s(-.4)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(+35) / 50(+35)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km(+20km) / 312 / 7
Sensor strength: 22 Radar(+7)
Signature radius: 135(-5)

ZEALOT

No big changes here other than the electronics and cap changes.

Role Bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Amarr Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret capacitor use
5% bonus to Medium Energy Turret rate of fire

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret optimal range
5% bonus to Medium Energy Turret damage

Slot layout: 5H, 3M, 7L; 5 turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 1180 PWG, 320 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 980(-4) / 2250 / 1670(-18)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 1500 / 285s (-50s) / 5.26/s (+.78)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 210(+1) / .553 / 12580000 / 9.64s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 75km(+20km) / 306 / 6
Sensor strength: 21 Radar(+8)
Signature radius: 125

=============================================================================

CERBERUS

In the first iteration we didn't quite go far enough with the Cerb in terms of power. In this pass we are going further to support its role as both a long range missile platform and a potential skirmisher by increasing its speed significantly and also adding more fitting to make fielding the extra launcher more comfortable. The change to cap recharge should go a long way to help the Cerb.

Role Bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Caldari Cruiser Bonuses:
5% bonus to Kinetic Missile damage
10% bonus to Missile velocity

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Missile flight time
5% bonus to Missile Launcher rate of fire

Slot layout: 6H, 5M, 4L; 0 turrets, 6 launchers(+1)
Fittings: 800 PWG(+165), 520 CPU(+80)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 2000(-4) / 1200(+4) / 1400(-6)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 1200(+137.5) / 235s (-100s) / 5.1/s (+1.93)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 220(+45) / .463 / 12720000 / 8.17s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 15(+15) / 15(+15)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 95km(+15km) / 282 / 6
Sensor strength: 24 Gravimetric(+8)
Signature radius: 135

EAGLE

For the Eagle there aren't huge changes. Along with the electronics and cap changes we are going to speed it up slightly, lower the signature radius by 10 and make some small adjustments to the fitting so that fitting rails is a little easier.

Role Bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Caldari Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret optimal range
4% bonus to shield resistances

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret optimal range
5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage

Slot layout: 5H(-1), 6M(+1), 4L; 5 turrets, 2 launchers
Fittings: 990 PWG(+115), 440 CPU(+2)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 2500(+391) / 1250(-16) / 1550(+3)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 1350(-25) / 255s (-80s) / 5.29/s (+1.2)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 180(+16) / .576 / 11720000 / 9.36s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 90km(+20km) / 252 / 8
Sensor strength: 25 Gravimetric(+7)
Signature radius: 140(-10)

=============================================================================

DEIMOS

For the Deimos we are bumping the speed up some more, lowering the Signature Radius slightly and of course adding the electronics and cap changes. We did look closely at the MWD cap use bonus and in the end decided that there wasn't any replacement compelling enough to warrant a change.

Role Bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Gallente Cruiser Bonuses:
5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage
7.5% bonus to Armor Repair amount

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret falloff
5% Medium Hybrid Turret damage

Slot layout: 5H(-1), 4M(+1), 6L; 5 turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 1050 PWG(+60), 360 CPU(+10)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1200(+40) / 2100(+60) / 2550(+19)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 1400(+25) / 225s (-110s) / 6.2/s (+2.1)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 230(+22) / .475(-.055) / 11460000 / 7.54s(-.875)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 50
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 85km(+20km) / 270 / 6
Sensor strength: 22 Magnetometric(+7)
Signature radius: 150(-10)

ISHTAR

I think the Ishtar had the most alarm bells after the first wave of feedback so it got some of the biggest changes. First of all, we rolled the drone bay bonus into the base stats and replaced it. Rather than the blanket 10% tracking and optimal drone bonus, we split the bonus into two more specialized bonuses. One to Sentry drone optimal and tracking, and another on Heavy Drone speed and tracking. Along with that we made a big adjustment to fitting Big smile

Role Bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Gallente Cruiser Bonuses:
7.5% bonus to Heavy Drone speed and tracking(was 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage)
10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
5 km bonus to Drone operation range per level
7.5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range and tracking speed(was bonus to drone bay capacity)

Slot layout: 4H(-1), 5M, 5L; 4 turrets(+1), 0 launchers
Fittings: 780 PWG(+80), 340 CPU(+55)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1400 (-6) / 1600 (-18) / 2300 (+191)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 1400 (+275) / 265s (-70s) / 5.28/s (+1.9)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 195(+4) / .52 / 11100000 / 8.43s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 375(+250)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 80km(+20km) / 294 / 7
Sensor strength: 23 Magnetometric (+7)
Signature radius: 145

=============================================================================

VAGABOND

Wow the Vagabond. So for changes we bumped the speed up just a touch so that its almost exactly the same as before (if you had HAC 5), gave it the electronics and cap recharge change and otherwise left it more or less as proposed.

Let me say a few things here about the shield boost bonus and why we chose it. We wanted to replace the outdated base speed bonus with something that would be fun and interesting but wouldn't have a huge effect on the power of the ship, as it was already the second most used HAC. CCP Fozzie suggest shield boost amount because it matches up nicely with other Minmatar ships, provides some fun new potential, and is relatively low risk because of its small impact at larger scales. For some reason this has been interpreted by many as a repurposing of the Vagabond as a brawler. IT IS NOT, I PROMISE. If I was going to use the new Vagabond, I would be looking to do the same exact thing that its always been good at - skirmish. However, I would be excited about the fact that you can replace one of your large shield extenders with a large ancillary shield booster, which in one reload creates more hitpoints than the extender (before links/boosters/heat which make it even better), but can be reloaded over the course of a long fight. The Vaga is actually extremely good at taking advantage of that potential because of being able to control its time in the engagement with its impressive speed. If this doesn't sound attractive, ignore the active bonus! The ship will perform exactly as it always has with the double extender fit except now it mitigates tons of damage because of the role bonus.

The other big problem with the Vaga is the Cynabal. That is not a problem we want to address by having an arms race between the two during this rebalance. The Cynabal needs a look and I'm sure when we get to pirate cruisers we can solve the problem.

Role Bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Minmatar Cruiser Bonuses:
5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret rate of fire
7.5% bonus to shield boost amount (was 5% bonus to max velocity)

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret falloff
5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret damage

Slot layout: 6H, 4M, 5L; 5 turrets, 1 launchers(-1)
Fittings: 855 PWG, 400 CPU(+5)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1750(+97) / 1400(+63) / 980(-4)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 1200(+137.5) / 245s (-90s) / 4.9/s (+1.7)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 295(+56) / .504 / 11590000 / 8.1s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 25
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km(+20km) / 330 / 6(+1)
Sensor strength: 21 Ladar(+7)
Signature radius: 115

MUNINN

Lowering Signature Radius a bit but no large changes here.

Role Bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Minmatar Cruiser Bonuses:
5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret rate of fire
5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret damage

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret optimal range
7.5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret tracking speed

Slot layout: 6H(-1), 3M, 6L(+1); 5 turrets, 1 launchers(-2)
Fittings: 1160 PWG, 355 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1580(-2) / 2000(-4) / 1400(-6)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 1300(+50) / 255s (-80s) / 5.1/s (+1.4)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 210(+14) / .571 / 11750000 / 9.3s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 25
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 80km(+25km) / 294 / 6(+1)
Sensor strength: 21 Ladar(+8)
Signature radius: 125(-5)

[kalaratiri]

Prom will be furious about the removal of the utility high on the Deimos, but I guess the added mid makes up for it.

Muninn looks gorgeous, gonna miss the double smartbombs though

[Alain Colcer]

anyone sees the Cerb taking over as the uber-kiter?

[Saede Riordan]

I'll be in my bunk

[Ghost Hunter]

Cerberus and new Ishtar FOTM incoming

[Esna Pitoojee]

I'll be interested to see if the medium rail buff puts competition between the Diemos and the Eagle for "best rail kitey-sniper".

[Morwen Lagann]

Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1750(+97) / 1400(+63) / 980(-4)

As Mynnna just pointed out on Twitter, this means the Vagabond no longer has 1337 base armor HP. xD

[Lyn Farel]

Meh.

[Saede Riordan]

I'll be interested to see if the medium rail buff puts competition between the Diemos and the Eagle for "best rail kitey-sniper".

I suspect it'll fall into a very similar dichotomy to the Naga and Talos in terms of the way they would compare to each other.

[kalaratiri]

Prom will be furious about the removal of the utility high on the Deimos

Called it.

WTF HAVE THEY DONE TO MY FUCKING DEIMOS!? Seriously? That's fucking garbage. Absolutely fucking garbage. Now you've got a shitty injector-reliant repper, or a shitty kiter, or shitty cap.

The mwd bonus is borderline useless now because brawling (the ships fucking role) cap is fixed to an injector and therefore who cares how good it will mwd. Before if you paired mwd+nos, you could run a rep off of that nos and maintain fire/tackle under neut pressure.

The Deimos was unique in that it offered an active armor platform that didn't rely on consumables for long ranges or extended fights. Now its the same as every other fucking thing.

To sum up Gallente brawling cruisers now, why would I bother flying a thorax hull when the vexor is better in every way and has the same drawbacks. Fucking CCP.

Edit: am right fucking annoyed now

[Ghost Hunter]

To be fair, he isn't wrong.

[kalaratiri]

To be fair, he isn't wrong.

Oh aye, he's completely right. Some of the changes make me happy (the Eagle has gone from utter garbage to at least moderately acceptable, the Sac is looking lovely and the Muninn is one of my favorite ships ever), however some of them, like the Deimos, do leave me confused as to what exactly they are thinking this will change. Except turning every single HAC into med-to-long ranged skirmishers, which I'm not sure I like..

[Esna Pitoojee]

These changes definitely have a hint of "Welp, brawling is dead, may as well make everything kitey now, otherwise it will be shit!"

[Lyn Farel]

To be fair, he isn't wrong.

Oh aye, he's completely right. Some of the changes make me happy (the Eagle has gone from utter garbage to at least moderately acceptable, the Sac is looking lovely and the Muninn is one of my favorite ships ever), however some of them, like the Deimos, do leave me confused as to what exactly they are thinking this will change. Except turning every single HAC into med-to-long ranged skirmishers, which I'm not sure I like..

It's what they have always been designed for since the beginning. Brawling with a Deimos was kind of like doing it wrong in my experience (but maybe it has changed since then... vOv). I don't see the point to take a 100++ M ship to do what a brutix does almost better.

[kalaratiri]

To be fair, he isn't wrong.

Oh aye, he's completely right. Some of the changes make me happy (the Eagle has gone from utter garbage to at least moderately acceptable, the Sac is looking lovely and the Muninn is one of my favorite ships ever), however some of them, like the Deimos, do leave me confused as to what exactly they are thinking this will change. Except turning every single HAC into med-to-long ranged skirmishers, which I'm not sure I like..

It's what they have always been designed for since the beginning. Brawling with a Deimos was kind of like doing it wrong in my experience (but maybe it has changed since then... vOv). I don't see the point to take a 100++ M ship to do what a brutix does almost better.

The old nos/plate/rep Deimos actually worked pretty well as a brawler in comparison to the brutix due to the higher speed, better resists and much smaller sig radius. The bonuses also made it much better at chasing things without capping itself out and being unable to shoot anything when it arrives in range.

Right now, I'd take a Scythe Fleet Issue over basically any of these HACs. The sig tank you can get on that is really something special, as well as a utility high and a better base speed than any of the HACs except the Vagabond.